carbuff
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I wonder if this tool is something that's available, that might help decipher the pages? digitalmappa on Twitter
CO CO - Garfield Co, WhtMale 35-65, 789UMCO, skeletal in tent, Sep'04
- Thread starter Rle7
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It's hard not to admit that there is a striking resemblance between missing person Robert Dwaine Scott and the Flat Tops Doe. Especially with the new facial reconstruction that was uploaded late 2017. I wonder why police are reluctant to look into the connection. I found a news article mentioning the two and investigators did not think they were the same person. Missing man’s bag found in Flat Tops
I have recently been to the spot that the Flat Tops Doe was found. There is a footpath leading directly to the campsite and shelter nearby. The route leading from Glenwood (direction I came from) to the location of his body also directly connects to the mountain road that passes Jet Lake where Robert Scott's vehicle was found. It would have been a very long hike on foot, but a direct path to the location.
I have recently been to the spot that the Flat Tops Doe was found. There is a footpath leading directly to the campsite and shelter nearby. The route leading from Glenwood (direction I came from) to the location of his body also directly connects to the mountain road that passes Jet Lake where Robert Scott's vehicle was found. It would have been a very long hike on foot, but a direct path to the location.
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carbuff
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I submitted Scott a couple of years ago and was told no, it can't be him.
I presumed they had some basis for the ruleout, but maybe I'm too trusting...
I presumed they had some basis for the ruleout, but maybe I'm too trusting...
Do we know exactly why Scott was ruled out? I was trying to search for potential matches for this Doe and I stumbled upon Scott's entry on NamUs.
A lot of things seem to match up here. For example, the jaw and eyebrows on the bust vs. Scott are very similar. Also, one of the major ones is the fact that Scott's car was found near/in the park where the Doe was found. This seems like too much of a coincidence for me to just write off.
The article(s) I've read only say that they don't think it's him because of physical differences (I'm not sure how they would be able to tell this 100% as they don't have Scott's skull?) and the fact that he left a suicide note (which is compelling evidence against it, to be fair, but something could have occurred anywhere and anytime between Scott arriving at the area and the decedent's estimated death time).
The year the decedent was estimated to have died was 2003-2004 according to NamUs, but possibly as far back as 1999 based on coins found. I wouldn't be surprised if the decedent passed away in 2002 or sometime before that even; the area is very, very remote, so much so that one of the people investigating the case said that "it could have been 100 years before the body's discovery."
Too much seems to match up/is very coincidental for me to simply write this off. I think Scott is by far the strongest potential match. I'm presuming the police department never performed a DNA test and ruled him out formally, which is why I think Scott as a potential match has a strong case to be investigated further. JMO
A lot of things seem to match up here. For example, the jaw and eyebrows on the bust vs. Scott are very similar. Also, one of the major ones is the fact that Scott's car was found near/in the park where the Doe was found. This seems like too much of a coincidence for me to just write off.
The article(s) I've read only say that they don't think it's him because of physical differences (I'm not sure how they would be able to tell this 100% as they don't have Scott's skull?) and the fact that he left a suicide note (which is compelling evidence against it, to be fair, but something could have occurred anywhere and anytime between Scott arriving at the area and the decedent's estimated death time).
The year the decedent was estimated to have died was 2003-2004 according to NamUs, but possibly as far back as 1999 based on coins found. I wouldn't be surprised if the decedent passed away in 2002 or sometime before that even; the area is very, very remote, so much so that one of the people investigating the case said that "it could have been 100 years before the body's discovery."
Too much seems to match up/is very coincidental for me to simply write this off. I think Scott is by far the strongest potential match. I'm presuming the police department never performed a DNA test and ruled him out formally, which is why I think Scott as a potential match has a strong case to be investigated further. JMO
carbuff
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The other thing they mentioned when I called is that it's really quite a long distance over difficult terrain from where Scott was last known to be to where the UID was found. Apparently the fact they were both long-distance hikers didn't count 
I don't know what else can be done if neither man's LE wants to look into it, though.
I don't know what else can be done if neither man's LE wants to look into it, though.
That does make sense, as far as I can tell the difference between where Scott's bag was found and where the UID was found was around 22 miles (?, that could be off because I couldn't really get a great idea of where Scott's duffel bag was exactly, so take that with a grain of salt) and considering it was difficult terrain it would be quite hard. I don't think there's much possible to do if they don't want to investigate it again. Hopefully they decide to investigate the lead again, or something along those lines.
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houndpounder
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Garfield UID, was ruled out on Robert Dwaine Scott's Namus. That is why it can not be him.
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
carbuff
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I just want to point out, to anyone that hasn't noticed, that the map link location posted on the Flat Tops Doe NamUs is incorrect. I was originally drawn to this case because of the super remote location. The actual location he was found is just north of Glenwood Springs and the GPS coordinates on the NamUs page are more accurate.
We were able to get within two miles of the location by truck and there was a lot of evidence of side by sides or dirt bikes near the area. There is certainly foot traffic in the area, clear trails, and well used camp sites along the way. I'm not sure if you can get to this site by foot just by following No Name Creek, but there is a trailhead that starts at the base of the creek with resorts and rest stops nearby.
We were able to get within two miles of the location by truck and there was a lot of evidence of side by sides or dirt bikes near the area. There is certainly foot traffic in the area, clear trails, and well used camp sites along the way. I'm not sure if you can get to this site by foot just by following No Name Creek, but there is a trailhead that starts at the base of the creek with resorts and rest stops nearby.
houndpounder
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Oh sorry Carbuff. Perhaps the agency had obtained Scott's dental charts to compare to Garfield, UID at some point after your phone call.
It seems like such a close possibility, I would hate to think they ruled it out based on circumstance instead of science.
I was told once by an ME office office that it probably isn't the person I suggested and they weren't going to pursue it. (I later found out the ME office could not find the evidence box from the 1987 UID with dentals or DNA).
It seems like such a close possibility, I would hate to think they ruled it out based on circumstance instead of science.
I was told once by an ME office office that it probably isn't the person I suggested and they weren't going to pursue it. (I later found out the ME office could not find the evidence box from the 1987 UID with dentals or DNA).
papijoe2002
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I've made some significant progress on deciphering the letters and even on the drawing on the front of the notebook. I'll post in as soon as I can. In the mean time I know FOR SURE that John Doe did not commit suicide and that he was not homless...
papijoe2002
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In September 2004 two Elk hunters found the skeletal remains of an unknown man, at the Flat Tops, White River National Forest, Garfield County, Colorado. Dubbed the “Flat top John Doe”, the unidentified man was a white, Caucasian male, around 5”11- 6”1 and estimated between the ages of 35 – 65.
He had extensive dental work, including crowns, bridge work and a gold capped tooth and also suffered from severe degeneration of the spine and neck. The man had no broken bones and cause of death was recorded as natural / unknown.
The skeleton was found at what appeared to have been the campsite for a well-provisioned sleep among the pines. The man died in a sleeping bag under a domed tent with $620 in cash, 20 packs of Camel cigarettes and a pair of size 9M Timberland brown-and-black hiking boots, but with no identification. There was no sign of foul play.
The sheriff's office hopes that a possible farewell note addressed to someone called "Lib" might lead to the identification of the skeletal remains discovered nearly two years ago in the drainage of No Name Creek at about 9,700 feet elevation. The site is about 6 miles as the crow flies from Glenwood Springs, but 12 miles by the Transfer Trail out of town.
He had extensive dental work, including crowns, bridge work and a gold capped tooth and also suffered from severe degeneration of the spine and neck. The man had no broken bones and cause of death was recorded as natural / unknown.
The skeleton was found at what appeared to have been the campsite for a well-provisioned sleep among the pines. The man died in a sleeping bag under a domed tent with $620 in cash, 20 packs of Camel cigarettes and a pair of size 9M Timberland brown-and-black hiking boots, but with no identification. There was no sign of foul play.
The sheriff's office hopes that a possible farewell note addressed to someone called "Lib" might lead to the identification of the skeletal remains discovered nearly two years ago in the drainage of No Name Creek at about 9,700 feet elevation. The site is about 6 miles as the crow flies from Glenwood Springs, but 12 miles by the Transfer Trail out of town.
papijoe2002
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This is what was generally agreed upon as far as these letters go. Some of it is wrong and I've filled in some gaps..
I should write in case my situation here doesn't improve. This may be the end of my journey."
"Would like for you to claim the body . . . services or memoreal. Cremation."
"Third choice take them up in a glider (I promise not to get sick on you,"
Other pages were less legible and only a few words per sentence could be read.
The unknown man appeared to be requesting the recipient of the note “Lib” to contact another female in the event of his death.
"ar on the . . . would you call her...d have it sent...you because I . . . want it to . . . where." "be . . . er . . . my . . . s are going."
I should write in case my situation here doesn't improve. This may be the end of my journey."
"Would like for you to claim the body . . . services or memoreal. Cremation."
"Third choice take them up in a glider (I promise not to get sick on you,"
Other pages were less legible and only a few words per sentence could be read.
The unknown man appeared to be requesting the recipient of the note “Lib” to contact another female in the event of his death.
"ar on the . . . would you call her...d have it sent...you because I . . . want it to . . . where." "be . . . er . . . my . . . s are going."
papijoe2002
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This one part here shows us that this is definitely not a suicide...... "If I don't get saved"....The word "saved" has long been mistaken for "favor or "flavor". Because of this mistake many have ruled out the possibility that John Doe is Australian or British since he didn't spell it "favour"
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Suglo
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He has a thread here. You should add this to the thread. Maybe ask a moderator to merge yours with the original one?
CO - CO - Garfield Co., WhtMale Skeletal 789UMCO, 35-65, in tent, Sep'04
CO - CO - Garfield Co., WhtMale Skeletal 789UMCO, 35-65, in tent, Sep'04
GoBuckeyes
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Why would a man with money (cash) and arthritis throughout his neck and spine plan an extended camping trip WITH a pillow and suitable tent but WITHOUT a therma-rest or another brand of inflatable camping mattress? They are extremely light, take up very little space when deflated, and seem a necessary provision for someone with extensive arthritis, who seems at least somewhat detail oriented (as indicated by his writing and other items with his person). This strikes me as odd if the person had any type of wealth or savings at the time of death. Chronic pain is never far from the mind of anyone inflicted by it.
Was he looking for someone or something and didn't plan to stay any longer than absolutely necessary? Did he expect not to be there long? Was someone to pick him up or join him and did not show? The items found with him to me seem like they could be items belonging to a homeless person. Homeless people frequently have no ID. The lack of a weapon for protection from wildlife is notable, as is the absence of a first aid kit. Anyone who has camped at all knows to pack a first aid kit. Also, the 2 games are pocket sized, as is the notebook. All items that could be used to help pass time during the day when many homeless shelters are not open for use. Additionally, most shelters are overcrowded and have a lottery system set up each night. So, for many, a tent or secondary shelter option is a necessity and a water filtration system is more precious than gold, especially if the person doesn't have access during the day to potable water.
Most shelters require people to sign in, but they don't necessarily require ID. Has the tent been tested for DNA? The notebook? Camels? The lighters must be able to provide a clean print and or DNA.
It may be helpful to check regional shelter sign in logs from the late 90s. If Lib or some variation is found, look for a pattern of a male signing in with Lib and then the male being absent from the registry at some point. It's a longshot, but it's something. From there, I'd dust for prints. It's hard to sign even an X on a page without leaving some print. Running LIB's print or the male's print might get a hit. Not all, but sometimes homeless people get into scrapes and scuffles (NOT judging even the slightest...the environment would tax the meekest of souls) and end up being arrested and printed and DNA taken. Lib may or may not be the woman's given name.
Vern
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Or Canadian. We also like our "our"s. Favour, Neighbour, Honour etc. I'll put Canadian back on my list. Great work!!
papijoe2002
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I'vemade some real progress on this. I'll post much more when I have time. This one part here shows us that this is definitely not a suicide...... "If I don't get saved"....The word "saved" has long been mistaken for "favor or "flavor". Because of this mistake many have ruled out the possibility that John Doe is Australian or British since he didn't spell it "favour"
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papijoe2002
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papijoe2002
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My notes in green are guesses based on context. The red notes I'm much more sure of. I spent a lot of time subjecting these to different programs where I tried to make it easier to read...Our guy here likes to use self deprecation as when he jokes about throwing up on Lib. Look above the yellow line and you'll see that there are two consecutive letters that have tails going below the line. Our guy only writes three letters like that: P, G and Y. This means the word really has to be ; "Stingy". Earlier on the page he mentions how he doesn't want a big production for his funeral services and now he's joking that he's a "stingy fool"
