Found Deceased UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #15 *ARREST*

[Woollybear]

But would it really take that long to drive there and back on a winter's night? Google says it's only about 20mins from Oak Road playing fields by car to Town End Road.
(edited loads sorry)

Hello Winterbells - sorry not to reply earlier owing to the need to sleep!

First of all, you'd have to know that the site at the end of Town End Road was there. It's not the sort of place you'd just stumble on, certainly not in the early hours of a freezing February morning. It would be interesting to know if that little bit beyond the car park on Google Street View where it looks as though you could get up and stand on the sea wall is used by people doing sea fishing generally, and whether the current suspect was one of those. He would also have had to have the presence of mind to know that the tide would be in.

As far as the route is concerned, generally, my experience of the estimated times given by Google's journey planner apps is that they tend to assume you are driving a Batmobile, or that car that Winston Wolf drives, or near offer. I would have said 20 minutes is optimistic, to say the least. Maybe someone local on here could drive it and advise (only joking...)

But even if it was 20 minutes that's a 40 minute round trip and add on something for the actual disposal of the body you must be looking at the best part of an hour. Plus once you take the turning for Paull, you are down to creeping along country lanes in the dark. The last thing you want is a prang with one of the locals driving home late from the pub...

There is also the linked issue of speed, and route. You don't want to be caning it with the pedal to the metal all the way, just in case you trip a red light camera or a speed camera or there's a cop car lurking down a side street. Yet, conversely, you don't want to be going so sedately that you draw attention to yourself & provoke them to pull you over anyway, on a "fishing" expedition (ie where they stop you for having something like a defective brake light and then go over the whole car on that pretext)

The most direct route, the one which you discussed last time we talked on the matter, would have had less traffic, but would that have been a good thing? It might have been better to blend into the city centre traffic - presumably heavier - then take Hedon Road, even though it's longer in miles.

Having said all of that, it's a plausible enough theory, and there was that sighting of a body off Paull, and all kudos to you for persisting with the Googling. As we have both discovered, there are in fact very few places along the waterfront of Hull where you could drive to within carrying distance of deep water close inshore and not appear on CCTV or indeed be spotted by real human beings.

I freely admit that I am a bit hazy on how long it was between Libby going missing and the current suspect being arrested on unrelated charges, but obviously if he had somehow concealed her after the initial incident, he could have retrieved and disposed of the body out at Paull in a more planned way which meant that he wouldn't necessarily had to have had prior knowledge of the place, or the tides.

 

[Newthoughts]

Hello Winterbells - sorry not to reply earlier owing to the need to sleep!

First of all, you'd have to know that the site at the end of Town End Road was there. It's not the sort of place you'd just stumble on, certainly not in the early hours of a freezing February morning. It would be interesting to know if that little bit beyond the car park on Google Street View where it looks as though you could get up and stand on the sea wall is used by people doing sea fishing generally, and whether the current suspect was one of those. He would also have had to have the presence of mind to know that the tide would be in.

As far as the route is concerned, generally, my experience of the estimated times given by Google's journey planner apps is that they tend to assume you are driving a Batmobile, or that car that Winston Wolf drives, or near offer. I would have said 20 minutes is optimistic, to say the least. Maybe someone local on here could drive it and advise (only joking...)

But even if it was 20 minutes that's a 40 minute round trip and add on something for the actual disposal of the body you must be looking at the best part of an hour. Plus once you take the turning for Paull, you are down to creeping along country lanes in the dark. The last thing you want is a prang with one of the locals driving home late from the pub...

There is also the linked issue of speed, and route. You don't want to be caning it with the pedal to the metal all the way, just in case you trip a red light camera or a speed camera or there's a cop car lurking down a side street. Yet, conversely, you don't want to be going so sedately that you draw attention to yourself & provoke them to pull you over anyway, on a "fishing" expedition (ie where they stop you for having something like a defective brake light and then go over the whole car on that pretext)

The most direct route, the one which you discussed last time we talked on the matter, would have had less traffic, but would that have been a good thing? It might have been better to blend into the city centre traffic - presumably heavier - then take Hedon Road, even though it's longer in miles.

Having said all of that, it's a plausible enough theory, and there was that sighting of a body off Paull, and all kudos to you for persisting with the Googling. As we have both discovered, there are in fact very few places along the waterfront of Hull where you could drive to within carrying distance of deep water close inshore and not appear on CCTV or indeed be spotted by real human beings.

I freely admit that I am a bit hazy on how long it was between Libby going missing and the current suspect being arrested on unrelated charges, but obviously if he had somehow concealed her after the initial incident, he could have retrieved and disposed of the body out at Paull in a more planned way which meant that he wouldn't necessarily had to have had prior knowledge of the place, or the tides.

Libby went out on Thursday 31st Jan. Last seen at 12.09am on the morning of Friday 1st Feb. Police were looking for her and questioning roads near to Haworth by Friday 1st. PR was arrested on Wednesday 6th on suspicion of abducting Libby. Questioned for the full 96 hours and subsequently charged with unrelated offences. Giving him 5 days. But the police were all over the place by then. I think it would have been difficult to take Libby anywhere, alive or dead, from his home after the 1st Feb.

There was a body spotted near there and he is supposedly interested in fishing.

What do you and @Winterbells think about the CCTV to there?

Also don't forget the weather conditions. What would the roads have been like? Slower driving?

 

[jessie]

Libby went out on Thursday 31st Jan. Last seen at 12.09am on the morning of Friday 1st Feb. Police were looking for her and questioning roads near to Haworth by Friday 1st. PR was arrested on Wednesday 6th on suspicion of abducting Libby. Questioned for the full 96 hours and subsequently charged with unrelated offences. Giving him 5 days. But the police were all over the place by then. I think it would have been difficult to take Libby anywhere, alive or dead, from his home after the 1st Feb.

There was a body spotted near there and he is supposedly interested in fishing.

What do you and @Winterbells think about the CCTV to there?

Also don't forget the weather conditions. What would the roads have been like? Slower driving?

I really don't think we can condemn someone without full knowledge of all the evidence

 

[Woollybear]

Libby went out on Thursday 31st Jan. Last seen at 12.09am on the morning of Friday 1st Feb. Police were looking for her and questioning roads near to Haworth by Friday 1st. PR was arrested on Wednesday 6th on suspicion of abducting Libby. Questioned for the full 96 hours and subsequently charged with unrelated offences. Giving him 5 days. But the police were all over the place by then. I think it would have been difficult to take Libby anywhere, alive or dead, from his home after the 1st Feb.

There was a body spotted near there and he is supposedly interested in fishing.

What do you and @Winterbells think about the CCTV to there?

Also don't forget the weather conditions. What would the roads have been like? Slower driving?

I wasn't suggesting that he concealed the body in his house, in fact I think that it is an unlikely scenario generally that he concealed it at all, the only thing it's got going for it is that it would have meant he didn't necessarily have to have had prior knowledge of that spot out at Paull.

The weather was lousy, with snow and ice even in town, IIRC, and therefore would indeed have been worse, and therefore slower, out at Paull. Driving anywhere in Holderness in any case, once you get off the beaten track, is like slipping through a timewarp into the fourth dimension. I doubt very much that there'd be any CCTV out at Paull either. It's the sort of place where the internet's only on three afternoons a week and even then it's in black and white...

And of course, the "body" seen off Paull may well have been nothing of the sort, or if it was Libby, it could have drifted there from the River Hull. Who knows?

Sadly, there's likely to be little evidence out at Paull now, after this time. That Google Street View shot I posted a while ago looked like the waste land beyond the car park was pretty poached up and I imagine it's more or less permanently muddy. It would be interesting to know if any mud on the suspect's car could be matched to Paull, but then most of Holderness is a giant pudding made of Boulder Clay and even then a match doesn't imply a particular trip, just that he was once there.

But you have to give credit to Winterbells for a plausible alternative theory.

 

[Winterbells]

Hello Winterbells - sorry not to reply earlier owing to the need to sleep!

First of all, you'd have to know that the site at the end of Town End Road was there. It's not the sort of place you'd just stumble on, certainly not in the early hours of a freezing February morning. It would be interesting to know if that little bit beyond the car park on Google Street View where it looks as though you could get up and stand on the sea wall is used by people doing sea fishing generally, and whether the current suspect was one of those. He would also have had to have the presence of mind to know that the tide would be in.

As far as the route is concerned, generally, my experience of the estimated times given by Google's journey planner apps is that they tend to assume you are driving a Batmobile, or that car that Winston Wolf drives, or near offer. I would have said 20 minutes is optimistic, to say the least. Maybe someone local on here could drive it and advise (only joking...)

But even if it was 20 minutes that's a 40 minute round trip and add on something for the actual disposal of the body you must be looking at the best part of an hour. Plus once you take the turning for Paull, you are down to creeping along country lanes in the dark. The last thing you want is a prang with one of the locals driving home late from the pub...

There is also the linked issue of speed, and route. You don't want to be caning it with the pedal to the metal all the way, just in case you trip a red light camera or a speed camera or there's a cop car lurking down a side street. Yet, conversely, you don't want to be going so sedately that you draw attention to yourself & provoke them to pull you over anyway, on a "fishing" expedition (ie where they stop you for having something like a defective brake light and then go over the whole car on that pretext)

The most direct route, the one which you discussed last time we talked on the matter, would have had less traffic, but would that have been a good thing? It might have been better to blend into the city centre traffic - presumably heavier - then take Hedon Road, even though it's longer in miles.

Having said all of that, it's a plausible enough theory, and there was that sighting of a body off Paull, and all kudos to you for persisting with the Googling. As we have both discovered, there are in fact very few places along the waterfront of Hull where you could drive to within carrying distance of deep water close inshore and not appear on CCTV or indeed be spotted by real human beings.

I freely admit that I am a bit hazy on how long it was between Libby going missing and the current suspect being arrested on unrelated charges, but obviously if he had somehow concealed her after the initial incident, he could have retrieved and disposed of the body out at Paull in a more planned way which meant that he wouldn't necessarily had to have had prior knowledge of the place, or the tides.

Hi Woolybear
I take all your points, of course.
But my thinking is that a person who knows where 'The Deep' is, and the Ferry port (possibly a favourite route for people/friends/relatives travelling from Poland to York/Hull via the NL) and who likes fishing for food purposes and doesn't want to be bothered with an anglers license and has found secret places to fish for fish and enjoys flirting with danger, might well risk that journey and make it there and back in three hours.

 

[Newthoughts]

I really don't think we can condemn someone without full knowledge of all the evidence

I don't think anyone has been condemned in that post. Those are facts and questions.

 

[Winterbells]

... if he had somehow concealed her after the initial incident, he could have retrieved and disposed of the body out at Paull in a more planned way which meant that he wouldn't necessarily had to have had prior knowledge of the place, or the tides...

Ah yes, but a cadaver dog would detect if a body had been in a car. Assuming they had cadaver dogs check the car out, it can't have transported a dead person, but if could have transported a living, but barely conscious person.

 

[Winterbells]

....What do you and @Winterbells think about the CCTV to there?...

I think that even if spotted on cctv, the driver could have said he was just driving around for no particular reason. I do that sometimes.

 

[Woollybear]

Hi Woolybear
I take all your points, of course.
But my thinking is that a person who knows where 'The Deep' is, and the Ferry port (possibly a favourite route for people/friends/relatives travelling from Poland to York/Hull via the NL) and who likes fishing for food purposes and doesn't want to be bothered with an anglers license and has found secret places to fish for fish and enjoys flirting with danger, might well risk that journey and make it there and back in three hours.

Interestingly enough, sea fishing at Paull does seem to be a thing. In the spirit of research and avoiding doing my accounts for a little bit longer, I did some googling and found several forums like this one

Fishing The Humber At Paull - Sea Fishing - Fishing Forums from Anglers' Net

So you could be right. And as far as the risk is concerned, it's Hobson's choice for him, isn't it? He can't really do nothing and concealment is an unlikely option.

 

[Winterbells]

But you have to give credit to Winterbells for a plausible alternative theory.

Thank you, but it's all probably pointless anyway. The police don't seem interested in searching anywhere other than local parks and streets, so I guess they know that's where they're most likely to get their evidence.

 

[Winterbells]

Interestingly enough, sea fishing at Paull does seem to be a thing. In the spirit of research and avoiding doing my accounts for a little bit longer, I did some googling and found several forums like this one

Fishing The Humber At Paull - Sea Fishing - Fishing Forums from Anglers' Net

So you could be right. And as far as the risk is concerned, it's Hobson's choice for him, isn't it? He can't really do nothing and concealment is an unlikely option.

Yep. I am so keen to avoid doing my accounts, I even went on some of those forums a while ago to see if he'd contributed under some vaguely recognisable alias. No luck though. But yes, there's lots of chatter about fishing and good 'marks' on those forums (fora?). I'm also intrigued that he lived in York. Having gone to university there 100 years ago, I remember one of my pals used to get up at 4am to 'fish', presumably in the river Ouse (or maybe the lake on the campus, I don't know) but it made me wonder if our potential perp is someone who chooses to live where there are fish to be fished on the down low.

 

[jessie]

I don't think anyone has been condemned in that post. Those are facts and questions.

My apologies then. From many posters here (not all by any means) PR is being considered the main suspect and his possible movements questioned and discussed. I wish to bring another view since noone has yet been charged in connection with Libby's sad demise.

 

[HopeForGoodNews]

Very, very useful to non Hullensians. Thanks.

I'd assume he'd be caught on CCTV heading out towards Paull before he even got to the CCTV you've cited. Police haven't searched out that way at all have they?

I know they they'd asked for CCTV and dashcam footage from around the areas where Libby was last seen within a certain time frame. Does anyone know whether CCTV was requested from anywhere else outside that area? Such so towards Paull?

A couple of weeks after Libby went missing a police car was parked up on Paull Road near the Holderness drain with police walking along. Whether related or not is not known.

 

[Mollie123]

My apologies then. From many posters here (not all by any means) PR is being considered the main suspect and his possible movements questioned and discussed. I wish to bring another view since noone has yet been charged in connection with Libby's sad demise.

What would your other view be?

 

[Winterbells]

My apologies then. From many posters here (not all by any means) PR is being considered the main suspect and his possible movements questioned and discussed. I wish to bring another view since noone has yet been charged in connection with Libby's sad demise.

I’m really interested to hear your views, Jessie

 

[jessie]

I’m really interested to hear your views, Jessie

Quite simply I would not wish to assume either the innocence nor guilt of a person without hearing/knowing all available evidence.

 

[Woollybear]

My apologies then. From many posters here (not all by any means) PR is being considered the main suspect and his possible movements questioned and discussed. I wish to bring another view since noone has yet been charged in connection with Libby's sad demise.

Hi Jessie - yes, you are right, we must be careful of handing gifts to the defence unwittingly. The discussion of well-known cases in advance of a trial taking place on social media generally has now reached epic proportions and it must be very hard for jurors to exclude all of that, and just concentrate on the facts before them. This forum (unlike some Facebook pages I could name) is at least well-run and regulated and I would imagine that once charges are laid, the moderators will be watching very carefully thereafter for any posts with potential problems that could prejudice the trial. I'm pretty sure that the last thing anyone on here would want is to damage the prospects of a conviction.

I'm not sure from your post whether that was your point or whether you meant that you had another, different, suspect in mind.

My speculations really centre on how Libby ended up in the Humber off Grimsby and I freely acknowledge there are several possible explanations, not all of which involve the person currently being held by police on unrelated charges. A few pages back, I actually posted a number of reasons why a prosecution might fail, in fact, given what we know at the moment.

 

[Joolz1975]

Quite simply I would not wish to assume either the innocence nor guilt of a person without hearing/knowing all available evidence.

I fully agree with you.

 

[Winterbells]

Quite simply I would not wish to assume either the innocence nor guilt of a person without hearing/knowing all available evidence.

I agree.

 

[Winterbells]

A couple of weeks after Libby went missing a police car was parked up on Paull Road near the Holderness drain with police walking along. Whether related or not is not known.

There was a robbery at the bookies in November 2018, so it could have been related to that perhaps.
Police reveal why officers are searching Hull drain in investigation