Found Deceased UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #15 *ARREST*

[Enquirer-2019]

Found this paper that states even after a few days, decomposition may obscure or even destroy evidence of drowning.

https://jcp.bmj.com/content/jclinpath/45/8/654.full.pdf

That appears to be written in 1992, histology and molecular biology has some very advanced machines these days to analyse samples, so hopefully the answers....although it may take longer may still be possible to retrieve. I hope.

 

[kate2931]

That appears to be written in 1992, histology and molecular biology has some very advanced machines these days to analyse samples, so hopefully the answers....although it may take longer may still be possible to retrieve. I hope.

Ah well spotted Enquirer. I really need to log into my institution’s library and find some recent papers. Here’s hoping Carolyn Roberts is back from Bangladesh & helping LE - can’t get more specialist than her work !

 

[Enquirer-2019]

Ah well spotted Enquirer. I really need to log into my institution’s library and find some recent papers. Here’s hoping Carolyn Roberts is back from Bangladesh & helping LE - can’t get more specialist than her work !

I log into BMJ and similar directly using my institution's login, I am completing the final year of my PG. But yes not to appear pedantic...I highlighted it not mainly due to the date but I studied molecular biology and histology (part of my undergraduate degree) the new machines and microscopes are a real game changer.
That said in reference to old journal articles, I have many a time received feedback that some of my preferred reference articles were slightly out of date (some of the best in my view) LOL

 

[Little Nicki]

Interesting that you saw people fishing there.
The spot I've been talking about isn't quite there I don't think, but I'd like to know where to find your spot please?

To find 'my' spot, if you google Town End Road in Paull and then turn left at the end and follow streetview to as close to the river as you can get, you reach a point where you're right on the shore (there's a sign warning about it being unsafe due to erosion etc).

Here are some pics that hopefully give you a better idea where it is. It is down a quiet lane (beside the white building pictured). You can see from google maps that it is quiet well used. Few cars parked up on the google map image.

 

[Little Nicki]

Sorry those pics didnt post in the right place above lol. I'm think you can still se them ok tho.

 

[JosieJo]

I think you’re spot on Enquirer, it’s one of these two. I can’t decide which I’m more inclined to, it changes frequently but given his deviant ways I’m
leaning more towards number 1.

It’s been three weeks since Libby was found, meaning charges could be announced in the next week or the next PM is imminent.

Just a thought. If another PM is carried out next week then Libby is released for burial & this takes place, THEN charges are brought - where do the defence stand ? Tough luck they can’t order another one ? A possible tactic?

The Coroner orders the second one (PM) on behalf of any future defence . Its carried out be a different pathologist . I read that only the coroner sees it and the police have to formally appeal to see it . And it's not guaranteed

 

[lo so]

Do we actually know if PR goes fishing? I know his mother said he used to but is he still interested now?

 

[Mollie123]

The scenario may be... when the police came to arrest him on suspicion of abduction he may have said then "but I only gave her a lift because I found her upset etc.." that's maybe where this came from.
I also believe he is a cold emotionless character who will always deny and never admit even when evidence is given and proven. I believe the extra time given in custody to question was down to constant "no comment" and he was holding firm.
When lies become the truth is obviously a factor for this guy.

 

[Miss_French]

The scenario may be... when the police came to arrest him on suspicion of abduction he may have said then "but I only gave her a lift because I found her upset etc.." that's maybe where this came from.
I also believe he is a cold emotionless character who will always deny and never admit even when evidence is given and proven. I believe the extra time given in custody to question was down to constant "no comment" and he was holding firm.
When lies become the truth is obviously a factor for this guy.

A comment to the police wouldn't have found it's way into the public domain like that and not to PR's mother in Poland, and there was too much detail, like Libby being pushed away, for it just to be an exclamation that his wife overheard.

 

[Mollie123]

A comment to the police wouldn't have found it's way into the public domain like that and not to PR's mother in Poland, and there was too much detail, like Libby being pushed away, for it just to be an exclamation that his wife overheard.

I was referring to his possible reaction to his wife or whoever he gave his reaction to on being arrested for the abduction.
Nobody knows who heard his explanation first hand.

 

[Crazy Mama]

That appears to be written in 1992, histology and molecular biology has some very advanced machines these days to analyse samples, so hopefully the answers....although it may take longer may still be possible to retrieve. I hope.

This is true, but a fact that cannot change through time is that once a body has been retrieved from the water that delayed decomposition, it will decompose at a quick rate regardless of refrigeration. Unless there are special chemicals that can be used that are new I just can’t see a 2nd PM being much use. Perhaps it has already been done. Would the public have been told?

 

[bos]

A second pm does not necessarily have to be physically performed on a body,;a different pathologist can review the photos/results of the first PM and draw their own conclusions/highlight any omissions made in the first pm. I doubt it would be done before the 28 day mark as at the opening/adjournment of the inquest initially gives 28 days for police to make other inquiries. This period can be extended but because of the cost implications of a second pm, I doubt one would be performed “just in case” until the coroner had more indication as to whether prosecution was likely.

Edit, unclear as to whether 28 days runs from first involvement of coroner i.e notification of body found or date of inquest opening

 

[Crazy Mama]

A second pm does not necessarily have to be physically performed on a body,;a different pathologist can review the photos/results of the first PM and draw their own conclusions/highlight any omissions made in the first pm. I doubt it would be done before the 28 day mark as at the opening/adjournment of the inquest initially gives 28 days for police to make other inquiries. This period can be extended but because of the cost implications of a second pm, I doubt one would be performed “just in case” until the coroner had more indication as to whether prosecution was likely.

Edit, unclear as to whether 28 days runs from first involvement of coroner i.e notification of body found or date of inquest opening

Thanks for explaining that! I didn’t know that they don’t necessarily need the body. Good info.

 

[Newthoughts]

A comment to the police wouldn't have found it's way into the public domain like that and not to PR's mother in Poland, and there was too much detail, like Libby being pushed away, for it just to be an exclamation that his wife overheard.

My guesses would be either he said it to family or wife when the magnitude of the police searches became apparent and it looked like he might suddenly become a person of interest. Or after his arrest if he were allowed to contact anyone.

The presence of explanations for him being seen with Libby and in physical contact with her coupled with the absence of real useful information about where he pushed her away. Where he dropped her off etc seem like he was waiting to see what LE had before commiting to anything. Though I'm not sure why sister or wife didn't ask. I'm sure if they had they'd have told the journalists. They don't seem media savvy

 

[Newthoughts]

The scenario may be... when the police came to arrest him on suspicion of abduction he may have said then "but I only gave her a lift because I found her upset etc.." that's maybe where this came from.
I also believe he is a cold emotionless character who will always deny and never admit even when evidence is given and proven. I believe the extra time given in custody to question was down to constant "no comment" and he was holding firm.
When lies become the truth is obviously a factor for this guy.

I'm afraid I'm with you on what I currently believe about PR. They're only my feelings obviously gleaned from what we've seen and heard so far. They could change if I knew more.

If he had genuinely helped a crying girl that night he'd have gone to police and given them loads of useful information the day Libby went missing or shortly after. If he'd genuinely helped her before 'pushing her away' she'd have been somewhere between the bench and her house.

The taxi driver came forward. Witnesses came forward to tell police about grey Beard. Grey Beard came forward very quickly. Every one of those didn't know if they were the last person to see her alive.

Someone took a crying, distressed young woman from a bench and harmed her in some way. She's no longer alive. You have to be cold and emotionless to do that.

 

[Eyes Wide Open]

My guesses would be either he said it to family or wife when the magnitude of the police searches became apparent and it looked like he might suddenly become a person of interest. Or after his arrest if he were allowed to contact anyone.

The presence of explanations for him being seen with Libby and in physical contact with her coupled with the absence of real useful information about where he pushed her away. Where he dropped her off etc seem like he was waiting to see what LE had before commiting to anything. Though I'm not sure why sister or wife didn't ask. I'm sure if they had they'd have told the journalists. They don't seem media savvy

This is very much Just My Opinion. I believe that LE knocked on his door before he considered contacting them. Once under arrest, he had been told there was (spidercam) CCTV linking him to Libby. He may have been expecting this to happen and may even have warned his wife of what was coming. I'm assuming he was allowed to make a call to notify family. We don't seem to know if his wife was actually around. The call may have been straight to his sister to explain the circumstances in an innocent way so that the sister would be able to prime their mother about the basic things to say to press, etc if questioned. The stuff he's been charged with would probably not have been mentioned so when that came into the public domain the family were non-plussed about it. All that was said in Poland was he tried to help a crying girl who eventually came onto him and he rebuffed her as a good catholic man should, etc, etc. At the time that was enough to see off the press. Any more detailed questions would have drawn "I don't know any more". His sister or whoever he spoke to probably told him not to say anything and to see what LE had on him. My gut feeling is that the sister is the savvy one in the family but, if so, even she can't wind the clock back on his activities. As @ Newthoughts said several pages back, there is a whiff of incompetence and/or arrogance in his background. Why didn't he destroy all the incriminating stuff in his possession when he surely realised the seriousness of the Libby situation. JMO of course.

 

[Enquirer-2019]

Certain correlations, in this case, reminds me of the infamous 'Russell Williams' (The Colonel who became a killer)
He started off breaking into houses from approx 100's of yards from his home to steal underwear and sex toys, he escalated his crimes very rapidly to rape and murder.

I recommend this documentary -

(I apologise if the rules state we are not to directly link youtube videos, I'm not sure about this)

 

[Cherwell]

Though I'm not sure why sister or wife didn't ask. I'm sure if they had they'd have told the journalists. They don't seem media savvy

I don't think the wife has made any public statements, has she?

Someone took a crying, distressed young woman from a bench and harmed her in some way.

We don't have any evidence that she was crying, afaik. This is just an inference drawn from the word "distressed" which is often police-speak for falling-down drunk where the person is regarded as a victim rather than an offender.
It may be that she was, but unless there is a trial and we hear from witnesses like Grey Beard, we're unlikely to find out. The boys who saw her get out of the taxi and walk away didn't say she was crying at that point.
For reasons which are obvious, I wouldn't attach any importance to the indirect quote from PR.

 

[Enquirer-2019]

This is true, but a fact that cannot change through time is that once a body has been retrieved from the water that delayed decomposition, it will decompose at a quick rate regardless of refrigeration. Unless there are special chemicals that can be used that are new I just can’t see a 2nd PM being much use. Perhaps it has already been done. Would the public have been told?

They would use advanced refrigeration and formaldehyde (a chemical used to preserve bodies)

Here is a simplified link to the forensic pathology process of determining pressure to the neck such as in cases of asphyxiation -

As well as this they would look at damage to the hyoid bone of the neck, combined with O2/CO2 ratio (when O2 is restricted CO2 levels increase).

Edited to add-
In cases of drowning they would look for water in the lungs and air passage, debris found within that water can be analysed to trace them back to/ or try to determine the location where the body entered the water.

 

[Newthoughts]

I don't think the wife has made any public statements, has she?

We don't have any evidence that she was crying, afaik. This is just an inference drawn from the word "distressed" which is often police-speak for falling-down drunk where the person is regarded as a victim rather than an offender.
It may be that she was, but unless there is a trial and we hear from witnesses like Grey Beard, we're unlikely to find out. The boys who saw her get out of the taxi and walk away didn't say she was crying at that point.
For reasons which are obvious, I wouldn't attach any importance to the indirect quote from PR.

For reasons already discussed his sister's quote is unusual and incomplete enough to be taken as likely, unlike a lot of comments from MSM. And it is from there that we get the crying comment. Grain of truth in every lie

The wife we know nothing about. We don't even know if she was home v that night