OH Pike County: 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested#46

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A possibility of very different dynamics not considered??

The W family as it had been known financially or in status for many decades was falling. She risked the farm. The farm remains at risk until the mortgage is covered if the financial tides have not changed. JMO

"Indeed, 70% of wealthy families lose their wealth by the second generation, and a stunning 90% by the third, according to the Williams Group wealth consultancy."

The fact that she's now selling the Kune Kune pigs, which she just started the LLC for in 2016, has to mean something, wouldn't you think? And it's obvious from the ad Dudley referenced, that she or whoever wrote it, needed some help in even writing the ad. JMO
 
I wondered about that ever since the arrests. I was somewhat surprised that LE charged her the same as the others, as it didn't seem likely so many people sneaked into each home to kill. Like everyone else, it seems possible she was the driver and/or lookout. She may have gone in to DR's to assist with the killings there. There were 3 people to be killed there. As for logistics of where, when and how AW assisted, I'm not sure yet. We'll find out eventually. But I can't imagine 4 people were able to sneak into Frankie's home and shoot him and Hannah G, nearly simultaneously, in the dark without awakening them or the baby. JMO, two killers were involved in that one.
Or the three year old. Even with a silencer, wouldn't the noise of multiple gunshots be pretty loud in a trailer?
 
Here is the Exhibit A on the mortgage.

04-064700 that I forgot to mention above is where I believe the cow business was. It was also where Billy and Angela reportedly lived when they filed their marriage application.

What if the Wagner’s have been having financial problems for some time?

I've noticed something around these parts, and that's that the horse industry can change in a heartbeat. These are beautiful horses but, the market is simply flooded with horses. I don't care what kind of horses. There's been too much breeding. You can get them for free or a small adoption fee. Owners have become overwhelmed with the costs associated with them. It looks like to me, that the horses are very important to them. Is there any other record of how FW and BobW made a living? They had to acquire income from something to purchase the surrounding acreage around FWF.

I saw a couple folks around here take a chance on starting a herd. I think one, ended up sending his to the yards. He couldn't give a foal away, when 3-4 years prior they couldn't breed them fast enough. Some owners are turning them loose in them mountains, and we now have horses that have been born in the wild. If those horses aren't selling, she's still got to feed them.
 
I am not one of the better sleuthers on here but I had 2 questions related to this.
1. How did they get around?? Wouldn't ATV's be too loud at 1-6 am? Even in rural country? All the ones I have seen you can hear for a country mile. That does not mean they don't make quiet ones. I did think horses, but they would have to haul them there, unload and load, tie/hold them during the murders and they would have certainly left tracks. That risks someone finding a rig & trailer sitting empty and surely we would have heard something about that ?? I'm hoping as part of the investigation LE covered the distance between these crime scenes with various methods and timed out how long it took.
2. In regards to the "weed", in the beginning it was 2000 plants, then 200, now I haven't even heard it mentioned which says not an amount to speak of. SO, why all the surveillance ? If not for illegal growing, not for hunting then obviously for security right? So why would you not check them? Or have them on? Or notice if they were off? If your safety is so jeopardized you need that many cameras then shouldn't you pay attention to them?

I enjoy your posts! The main problem with horses, imo, is horse manure. There would definitely be horse manure, and hoof prints. I don't remember where, but, iirc, someone had seen the black suv in the area that night, which led them to track it down and take carpet samples. I think one suspect drove, and two entered.
 
That would be great! My ideal trip would be to go down there, drop off a gift basket to Sheriff Reader and hang out in the coffee shop talking to the locals. After that I'd like to visit Ms. Geneva Rhoden and take her, Tony and any others who want to go out for a nice lunch or dinner. Buy her a nice potted plant or something. Same for Len Manley and his family. I think if I wanted to drive down UHR, I would contact Len and Tony to see if its ok. Then I would drive down Camp Creek Road, etc.

ETA: I would also do the cemetery tour. Load up on some nice silk flower arrangements and visit all the graves.

BettyP, I have the desire and availability to go down for a day trip on most any day in the month of May. My Mom has worked for a florist for many years. I can speak to the florist about possibly donating the flowers. I know my Mom would arrange free of charge. We spoke often about this case. I have much family throughout Appalachia, and it hit close to home on many, many fronts.

The day you described is as perfect as any could be, without having the R and G 8 to greet personally. I just want to give Leonard and Geneva a great big hug. I admire their fortitude and grieve for them in their immense loss.
 
Super sleuthing, Tiff!! Sounds like all of it definitely had some purpose! Bet all of it will come out.

Ownership can be transferred under certain conditions within family or between trusts in the family. It doesn't negate any lien(s) on the property and the mortgage payments are still due in full to satisfy the liens. It sounds to me like it was a convenient way to move around money. Perhaps a bit of laundering, hiding profits, qualifying for some subsidy of some sort, something pretty hinky...most likely.
 
I am not one of the better sleuthers on here but I had 2 questions related to this.
1. How did they get around?? Wouldn't ATV's be too loud at 1-6 am? Even in rural country? All the ones I have seen you can hear for a country mile. That does not mean they don't make quiet ones. I did think horses, but they would have to haul them there, unload and load, tie/hold them during the murders and they would have certainly left tracks. That risks someone finding a rig & trailer sitting empty and surely we would have heard something about that ?? I'm hoping as part of the investigation LE covered the distance between these crime scenes with various methods and timed out how long it took.
2. In regards to the "weed", in the beginning it was 2000 plants, then 200, now I haven't even heard it mentioned which says not an amount to speak of. SO, why all the surveillance ? If not for illegal growing, not for hunting then obviously for security right? So why would you not check them? Or have them on? Or notice if they were off? If your safety is so jeopardized you need that many cameras then shouldn't you pay attention to them?

Very good questions, your second point in particular. Possibly it could have been to keep tabs on the autos they were flipping. I think most of them had to be kept outside and security fencing is really expensive.

The sheer number of murders, unsolved and solved, in that region would concern me. And, let's just state the obvious, trailers in remote areas don't feature the most secure building materials, and then the remote nature of everything and lack of cell reception add to the risk.

The car auctions around here require a large percentage of cash down and the rest within 24 hours, or you're out the significant cash down or "earnest money." So most people just pay it all up front in cash. Some people may have assumed there was a decent amount of cash on hand or the Rs may have thought so.

Working on cars isn't cheap, even without inventory on hand. The tools alone cost a decent chunk of change.

I haven't read when the security systems were installed. But even where I am now, no longer in a remote area, nearly all of my neighbors have at least one security cam at the front door/main entrance.

I am curious if anyone has read about or knows how heated the discussions became over custody. We don't know yet how threatening the texts became. Maybe they installed cameras or additional cams partly due to that??

Anyone else have any ideas? I'm sure I'm missed many potential reasons for the security.
 
It's my opinion that when the dust settles we're going to be in awe over how far back the crimes go and who all was involved. (I'm talking about other than the murders.) Too many fires, too much money being moved to and fro, now land and homes with liens being "rented" out under land contract deals. If they haven't broken the law before, it sure seems like they've bent it to the brink of it.
 
It's my opinion that when the dust settles we're going to be in awe over how far back the crimes go and who all was involved. (I'm talking about other than the murders.) Too many fires, too much money being moved to and fro, now land and homes with liens being "rented" out under land contract deals. If they haven't broken the law before, it sure seems like they've bent it to the brink of it.
They always said you can’t get wealthy unless you’re doing something illegal one way or the other
 
Or the three year old. Even with a silencer, wouldn't the noise of multiple gunshots be pretty loud in a trailer?

Yes, though I'm no expert. I also wonder how they got inside DR's trailer. As a woman living alone with two young people, she probably kept her doors locked at night. Did they awaken her to answer the door, then storm in with two of the shooters going to Hanna and Chris Jr's rooms? Or did they have a key or know how to pick a lock?

JMO, they parked their vehicles elsewhere as they couldn't risk someone driving by and seeing their car/s parked outside the victims' homes.
 
In a corporation, the stockholders are only liable up to the value of their stock. This is why most
use a $500.00 figure. The problems occur when a stockholder personally signs something. If I
remember correctly, when FW started White Pines Realty, only around 131 acres were put in
the realty's name. There is no way, FW is going to make a move to lose control of the farm.

A land contract has nothing to do with the bank. It is strictly a legal contract between the land
owner and the buyer.

Before Junior died, they had ample time to have everything in order. The clue is how FW and
Junior got and manage to keep the farm...
So what will happen to say they all get convictions and FW is also among those found guilty. can the state then move to seize their property and livestock to cover the cost of prosecution and fines ?
 
I think this information relates to the Peterson property.
It looks like the boys bought this property on 2/4/2014 from Cecilia Ann Burgess.
I don't see original mortgage information.
They took a $ 75,000 mortgage out on 7/20/2015.
Mechanic's Lien of $ 5,925 was filed on 12/16/2016.
Sold on 3/17/2017, no price given in these records.

Welcome to the Ohio County Real Property Official Records

The price they paid for the two parcels is on Adams County Auditor site. I do wonder if part of Grandmas Equity line was the cash used. Then they (George and Jake) possibly by AW's guidance still had financial challenges and took a mortgage against it for cash. The W4 then seemed to have financial problems again and couldn't pay for the work done on the property so the mechanics lien was placed.

Separately, why in the world name the WPines hunting reserve and WPines realty after Angela and Billy (William via court docs) flopped breeding business that went in flames "White Pines Kennels"?
 
I've noticed something around these parts, and that's that the horse industry can change in a heartbeat. These are beautiful horses but, the market is simply flooded with horses. I don't care what kind of horses. There's been too much breeding. You can get them for free or a small adoption fee. Owners have become overwhelmed with the costs associated with them. It looks like to me, that the horses are very important to them. Is there any other record of how FW and BobW made a living? They had to acquire income from something to purchase the surrounding acreage around FWF.

I saw a couple folks around here take a chance on starting a herd. I think one, ended up sending his to the yards. He couldn't give a foal away, when 3-4 years prior they couldn't breed them fast enough. Some owners are turning them loose in them mountains, and we now have horses that have been born in the wild. If those horses aren't selling, she's still got to feed them.

I agree on the horses. In the 2011-2014 area they started running ads that they would sell the horses at a much lower price if you wanted them without the papers. This indicates business or the breed with papers at least was not going good.

The only things I have seen for income related to FW are: animal breeding of many varieties, rental income, farm subsidies, and potential tax credits for Crystal Springs. Both FW and Robin were being compensated through Crystal Springs according to an article. We now know even it can no longer do intakes per Canepas statement at FW last hearing.
 
The price they paid for the two parcels is on Adams County Auditor site. I do wonder if part of Grandmas Equity line was the cash used. Then they (George and Jake) possibly by AW's guidance still had financial challenges and took a mortgage against it for cash. The W4 then seemed to have financial problems again and couldn't pay for the work done on the property so the mechanics lien was placed.

Separately, why in the world name the WPines hunting reserve and WPines realty after Angela and Billy (William via court docs) flopped breeding business that went in flames "White Pines Kennels"?

Tiff
This is good research you are doing.
I can’t answer any of your questions as I don’t fully understand all the land and LLC or Corporate transactions.
The only 2 thoughts I have are
1. What happened to the original 3 officers of Flying W Farms LLC? Those 3 people who have been mentioned in the newspaper articles? Did FW buy them out? Are they still around?
2. Part of the answers to all the land transactions may lie in FW’ s attorneys statement.
Something to the effect...”..FW has all her wealth tied up in land”. My interpretation of this was FW has no cash on hand. No ability to pay. Can’t pay for bail, lawyers, etc.
The various designations for land such as White Pines Hunting Reserve may give FW certain tax deductions or tax breaks or subsidy benefits, ....just a thought, not fact.
 
Yes, though I'm no expert. I also wonder how they got inside DR's trailer. As a woman living alone with two young people, she probably kept her doors locked at night. Did they awaken her to answer the door, then storm in with two of the shooters going to Hanna and Chris Jr's rooms? Or did they have a key or know how to pick a lock?

JMO, they parked their vehicles elsewhere as they couldn't risk someone driving by and seeing their car/s parked outside the victims' homes.
If Jake had picked up SW earlier in the night, he might have quietly unlocked a door before he left.
 
So what will happen to say they all get convictions and FW is also among those found guilty. can the state then move to seize their property and livestock to cover the cost of prosecution and fines ?

No. The State can't charge defendants the price for prosecuting them, that comes from State tax etc... but the Judge can levy court costs, fines, and restitution and give you jail time if you don't pay them. If you lose in civil court you might be ordered to pay attorney costs for the defendant if your the plaintiff, or for the plaintiff if your the defendant.

Obviously if the Wagner 4 are found guilty in criminal court the victims can sue them in civil court. (They can be sued even if found not guilty because there is a lower threshold for guilt in civil court.) Fred however is a different matter. Even if found guilty I don't see any way a case could be brought against her in civil court. She did not participate in the actual crimes causing loss to the victim's families.
 
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