Deceased/Not Found UK - Margaret Fleming, 19, Inverclyde, Scotland, 17 Dec 1999 *Guilty*

[bluebird69]

I love who the judge is He presided over the recent am murder trial iirc

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I love who the judge is He presided over the recent am murder trial iirc

Oh excellent - good old Lord Matthews.

In 2014 he was the judge in the second trial in the World's End murders case in which he is famous for sentencing Angus Sinclair to life imprisonment with a minimum term of 37 years, which is to date the longest sentence ever passed by a Scottish court. In 2019 he was the judge in the murder of Alesha MacPhail case who sentenced Aaron Campbell to life imprisonment with a minimum of 27 years.

 

[Deano saunders]

@TaylorCallum @Kikixxxx

 

[Ironside]

I've had a think about the stealing electricity charge - their house was so far away from other homes that I can't see how they stole from someone else's supply. It must be that they fiddled with the meter. Allegedly of course.

 

[Alyce]

I love who the judge is He presided over the recent am murder trial iirc

Ha, he'll take no nonsense from anyone, great Judge

 

[Taskforce88]

I've had a think about the stealing electricity charge - their house was so far away from other homes that I can't see how they stole from someone else's supply. It must be that they fiddled with the meter. Allegedly of course.

There are a couple of houses right next door and one across the road.

Still nothing happening with the house. Big green shutters have been up since they moved out but no visible work or demolition going on.

 

[Keine Engel]

I've had a think about the stealing electricity charge - their house was so far away from other homes that I can't see how they stole from someone else's supply. It must be that they fiddled with the meter. Allegedly of course.

There is a way to 'bypass' the meter, which depending on how often it's actually read rather than estimated, could be the case if it's a fairly remote property??
Allegedly of course

 

[Ironside]

There are a couple of houses right next door and one across the road.

Still nothing happening with the house. Big green shutters have been up since they moved out but no visible work or demolition going on.

Detached houses would involve an external cable which I can't see going unnoticed. The only leccy theft I can recall reading about involved terrace houses or flats.

There was an update about development of the site recently.

Margaret Fleming murder probe home 'needs developed' says millionaire firm

 

[Taskforce88]

Detached houses would involve an external cable which I can't see going unnoticed. The only leccy theft I can recall reading about involved terrace houses or flats.

There was an update about development of the site recently.

Margaret Fleming murder probe home 'needs developed' says millionaire firm

Yep, it needed a lot of work. Probably stuff going on inside. Although I expected it to be demolished and a new building put up. Could still happen of course.

 

[Ironside]

Whoever bought Seacroft may have agreed not to do anything to the property and land until after the trial concludes. The house will be mentioned in the trial a lot so it is sort of a piece of evidence.

 

[Ironside]

Jury was shown pics of the mawkit hovel today

Margaret Fleming murder trial shown images of squalid Inverclyde house

 

[Taskforce88]

Whoever bought Seacroft may have agreed not to do anything to the property and land until after the trial concludes. The house will be mentioned in the trial a lot so it is sort of a piece of evidence.

Very likely

 

[Legally Bland]

First bit of reporting I've seen this week:
________________

Miss Cruikshanks said Margaret's father, Derek Fleming, who had cared for her, died in October 1995.

Cairney and Jones were at the funeral and Cairney introduced himself and offered to help care for Margaret.

She said: "After Derek died they were at the funeral.

"Eddie Cairney came and approached me and said if I needed any help with Margaret he would give me respite care."

Mr McSporran asked her: "Did you know them?" and the witness replied: "No."

The QC then said: "Was Mr Cairney a stranger to you," and he replied: "Yes, he was actually."

Miss Cruikshanks told the court she allowed her daughter to stay with Cairney and Jones at their home Seacroft in Inverkip for up to a fortnight at a time.

She told the court the last time she saw her daughter at Seacroft was on November 26, 1997, when she was summoned there by a call from Cairney.

Miss Cruikshanks sobbed as she told the jury: "When I got there I said wanted Margaret to come home. He started to assault me.

"He banged me up against a wardrobe and threw me over a chair and said he wanted me out of the house and he spat in my face. It was a surprise."

Mum 'assaulted by man accused of murdering daughter'

Bit more at link.

 

[Ironside]

Margaret Fleming's mother 'assaulted' by murder accused

"Ms Cruickshanks said that she found her daughter difficult to cope with and said she would take things out on her.

She added: "She would come back from school and I'd say what were you doing and her temper would be up and she would batter me."

I don't remember this being mentioned before. Margaret was violent towards her own mother. I think this explains why the mother was more than happy for Cairney and Jones to take her for respite and why she didn't make a big deal about it when Cairney advised that Margaret was staying for good.

It's been very quiet the last few days I can only assume there was lots of legal arguments going on.

 

[Satchie]

I don't remember this being mentioned before. Margaret was violent towards her own mother. I think this explains why the mother was more than happy for Cairney and Jones to take her for respite and why she didn't make a big deal about it when Cairney advised that Margaret was staying for good.

There was some testimony about this in the previous trial:

Mother 'attacked' when she last saw daughter

"The court later heard Ms Cruickshanks was in contact with Inverclyde Council's social work department about her daughter's behaviour in October 1995, days before Mr Fleming died of cancer.

"The jury was told Margaret had been "violent and aggressive" while living with her grandparents.

"A subsequent social work report noted Ms Cruickshanks hoped staff would be able to take Margaret to a children's home to "give her a fright" or a police station to "let her have a look around"."

I think it's worth remembering Margaret was raised by her father, not her mother. Possibly her mother never wanted her. When her father got sick and died, and she was moved to a strange place, Margaret may well have acted out her grief. A mother with a shred of empathy for her child would understand that.

Since the mother was so ready to contact social workers about Margaret's alleged violence, why didn't she tell them - or police - about Carney? What kind of mother would leave her disabled daughter in the care of a man who violently assaulted her (the mother)?

Honestly, the supposed adults in this case come across as suffering from very low emotional intelligence and severe moral disabilities.

 

[Ironside]

Since the mother was so ready to contact social workers about Margaret's alleged violence, why didn't she tell them - or police - about Carney? What kind of mother would leave her disabled daughter in the care of a man who violently assaulted her (the mother)?

It doesn't sound like social workers did much to help with Margaret's violence so perhaps faith was lost in them.

Also after the showdown with Cairney Margaret's mother did contact the police who checked on Margaret and said she was fine.

 

[Ironside]

I'm surprised by the lack of reporting on this case. It seems to still be going on as normal.

This article is paywalls but it is the only thing I can find reporting on what happened yesterday in court it mentions the search for Margaret by the police.

No sign of Margaret Fleming after police search

Today was testimony from the accused friends.
Margaret Fleming carers 'unable to look after themselves'

 

[Deano saunders]

Yes I thought they’re would be a lot more reporting on this

 

[Ironside]

A lot of it is a repeat of what was covered in the last trial.

The big news story today in Scotland was the conviction of three people for a very brutal murder so maybe all the crime journalists had headed to Edinburgh today.
Lured to his death by pregnant ex caught in web of lies

 

[Antonia]

A report from today - evidence about Margaret's learning difficulties in relation to letters she allegedly wrote in January 2000.

Missing Margaret Fleming 'had reading age of eight'
Missing woman 'had reading age of eight'