Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #100

[Gracie55]

St.Johns river near me goes up north to Jacksonville.

What about St Johns? Not thinking it's related to murder of little girl in Orange Park?

 

[ilovechili]

From the Heavy.com article:
“I even walked all the way across the bridge and back. I only (saw) a guy when I first got there and another couple once I got on the bridge CE wrote. “I didn’t see the girls at all. I also didn’t take the trail that leads to the right. Only took the trail that lead to the bridge.”

This may have been mentioned before. The wording on this has always bothered me. CE was alone. She saw a guy when she first got there then saw another couple when she got on the bridge. This seems to me she is saying she saw a couple of guys. There isn’t “another” couple, man and woman, to refer back to. Is anyone else reading it this way?

I agree. To refer to "another" couple one has to be a part of a couple (she was alone right?) or have mentioned one couple already to use the term "another" is how it reads to me. Or, as you say, it means a couple of guys... As she already mentioned one guy...

I am behind on the pages too so if this has been discussed, my apologies.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Oh yes. Interviewed on camera too...which was his undoing, actually. Beast.

 

[TL4S]

I also feel he went out that day to that area with possibly assault but definitely murder on his mind. Taking two victims though sounds awful brash for the first time. I tend to lean towards that he'd killed before. JMO

I've considered the two victim question, as well. I don't think it'd be difficult to control two young, scared girls with a weapon, nor would it require experience. IMO

But I do wonder the motive behind two. Right now I'm thinking he saw one he wanted, but had to deal with both until they got to where he killed them

Maybe one was killed first to better get control of the other. At least for a few minutes. Makes me sick to write that.

 

[TL4S]

After seeing the area where they were murdered, the suspect must have had an intimate geographical knowledge of the area, and, it seems like he planned it well - as if he knew they were going to be there, and he had planned their murder. I can't help but to think, 1. The suspect is someone who is happily acquainted with the family which is why the girls complied with him (I don't think they knew they were going to be hurt at all), and, 2. I think this guy has definitely killed before - maybe even a few times. I mean, he was able to exercise power over 2 young girls very quickly and presumably easily (the route from the bridge to the area where they were killed is a ways down the only part of that hill that's not really steep - then down various paths until you get to the farmer's property). Why net to the farmer's field???

The scary thought to me is that maybe none of this was planned, at all. Maybe he wasn't even sure what he was going to do as they went "down the hill."

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Are subpoenas issued also for depositions?

ETA I just realized you're talking about subpoenas during the period Getting ready before trial. I now see you might be talking and just general terms. So below was written before I had my first sip of my first coffee! But I would I think if somebody is being deposed, that would result from a subpoena also as Depositions are a part of the discovery process in which litigants gather information in preparation for trial.

Absolutely, yes. The defense will subpoena the state Witnesses for appearance for all depositions. The notice of subpoena will be presented to the court.

The only reason I know this is because I am following another trial and keeping up with such subpoenas. And we are seeing a delay because some of the people were not found to depose in time for the original court date.

 

[TL4S]

ETA I just realized you're talking about subpoenas during the period Getting ready before trial. I now see you might be talking and just general terms. So below was written before I had my first sip of my first coffee! But I would I think if somebody is being deposed, that would result from a subpoena also as Depositions are a part of the discovery process in which litigants gather information in preparation for trial.

Absolutely, yes. The defense will subpoena the state Witnesses for appearance for all depositions. The notice of subpoena will be presented to the court.

The only reason I know this is because I am following another trial and keeping up with such subpoenas. And we are seeing a delay because some of the people were not found to depose in time for the original court date.

Me, too. That first sip of the first coffee is imperative!

 

[rosesfromangels]

Oh yes. Interviewed on camera too...which was his undoing, actually. Beast.

Good day everyone. I'm sitting here sipping my morning coffee pondering the timing of an arrest in this case. I sure do anticipate it coming soon. I like the quoted post alot because it gives me a chance to shine a spotlight on a key point.

This horrific crime happened in a small town, but Delphi is only 63 miles to Indianapolis, 89 miles to Fort Wayne, and 102 miles to Chicago. As many have stated, the Perp most likely lived in Delphi at one time, or has a relative they visited enough to know the Monon bridge and trail very well, but it's also likely he is living in one of these larger nearby cities; hiding in plain sight....now with a beard.

Speaking of the BRIDGE....a term or image of a bridge can be a metaphor for "crossing over", the journey from life to death. (e.g. "he crossed the rainbow bridge"). Think of all the bridge jumpers....I think this concept is absolutely a critical element to this crime.

The good news is that sophisticated LE agencies are involved in helping solve this terrible crime, and have sophisticated profilers, data scientists, and forensic experts to analyze and bring this case to justice. It will happen, and I know we are so very anxious to see that happen; no more so than the families and the people of Delphi.

I know a case like this can be draining, even for those participating in a forum like this. I hear folks becoming frustrated with LE and the time it is taking to bring this Perp in. Many of you have made the good points that not only does it take time to analyze the forensics, but it takes time to analyze the strength of the evidence with a large panel of experts; the D.A. will want to line up a strong case to insure conviction. But, that doesn't mean the Perp isn't under surveillance in the interim.

Here's to all the dedicated LE personnel working on this tragic case. Thank you for your persistence; let's smoke this miscreant out!

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[ab01]

I also feel he went out that day to that area with possibly assault but definitely murder on his mind. Taking two victims though sounds awful brash for the first time. I tend to lean towards that he'd killed before. JMO

I can see why you and many others would feel that way.

I see it as extremely risky and brash and something an inexperienced killer would do

He had fantasies, but I just don’t feel like he had actually acted on them before that day

Age of the perp also makes me feel like this wasn’t something he’s done before

Really I wish we knew more about the crime scene ( although we have no right to know) it always say a lot about the killers experience and how calculating and organized they are and even the likely motivation

Jmo

 

[Jdart14]

Good morning all. Hope you all have a great/safe weekend. Taking a moment to say a prayer over my cup of coffee for all affected by this crime and others. All missing a loved one that has been taken away. Feel free to join me!! God is good. And justice will be served. In this life and after.

 

[MistyWaters]

Do you think he planned to attack someone at the park that day? I was just thinking about intent. He'd have had to intend to cause harm to someone most likely to be carrying a gun in the pocket of his jacket. Concealed carry is one thing, but carrying a handgun that way is not that. Just curious if you think he planned on attacking someone that day and if you think he's done this previously? TIA

The Delphi trail seem a really unlikely place for anyone to preplan an attack in the middle of the day.

But bridge is reportedly is 853 ft long, almost 3 football fields, so crossing it right to the end placed the victims quite a long distance away from others on the trail, obviously giving the killer an advantage.

Ever since I first noticed that dirt road that runs beneath the far end of it my theory has been this was an attempted abduction, much like what happened to Jamie Closs except the girls tried to make a break by attempting to flee. But the car parked from noon to 5 pm at the other location has thrown a spanner into that possibility unless it was parked there as a decoy and two people were involved. But that theory becomes a little complicated.

Does anyone remember, around the second anniversary did LE use the word “targeted”? I seem to remember that being discussed but maybe it’s my imagination.

 

[Deleted member 230385]

Interestingly, early on LE never said DNA is key - they said technology is key. And Riley may have gotten it wrong but I’ve noticed a few times where reference to the cellphones is plural.

Feb 17, 2017
ISP on Delphi murders: "Everyone is a suspect"
Delphi, Indiana: State police is technology is key in the search for the Delphi killer
“We’re checking their cell phones, we’re checking their social media places Twitter, Facebook and that to see if there’s some type of connection there,” said Sgt. Riley. “We’re looking at every possible option.”....”

I imagine this has already been discussed, but there’s a feature on the Snapchat app where you can see all of your Snapchat friends’ current locations on a map. Each person shows up as a little cartoon icon that they pick for themselves. My daughter showed it to me once, and she had everyone in her grade as a “friend” even if though she’s not really friends with all of them, so about 60 kids. Most of them were clustered in our neighborhood, but I could quickly pick out who was traveling, who was outside of our town, etc. So.... speculating, maybe BG simply had access to a one of Libby’s classmates phone, and just glancing at it was able to see that there was a young girl at the trailhead, which is on the edge of town. Since Abby didn’t have a phone, he may have assumed that Libby was alone. MOO.

 

[Cutiekitty]

Not only was public safety a concern, but what would it have been like to have all those people walking around and potentially disturbing the crime scene? Even with hindsight 20/20, I'm glad they called it off. Searchers would've been almost right on top of the girls if they'd continued on and the defense would've had a field day with any evidence that was recovered.

If my kids disappeared from that particular park I would not automatically assume they were dead. If after walking around and calling out for them for several hours didn't work then I'd first assume that they were no longer at the park. I'd think maybe they caught a ride with a friend and the phone died, there was an accident and someone took them to a hospital and our wires were crossed, etc. My instinct would not be that they were both dead right there where we stood. The park isn't that big. With as many people as they had out that night, if the girls had been there but were hurt or hiding or whatever, they'd have heard the searchers. When they didn't emerge, I would have thought of other scenarios first. And that's kind of what happened here. Nobody expected to find them the way they did.

What's interesting, too, is that it's complete strangers who have no real ties to the case or to the girls who have been criticizing LE over this. The girls' families have not.

I agree. It’s frustrating that the search was called off, but logical based on the reasons you stated above. It’s frustrating that there were 2 sketches, but logical too. When this first happened I remember seeing the photo on the news and my first thought was that kinda looks like my neighbor - a 40ish chunky man. I’m 4 states and about 900 miles away so it couldn’t have been him. The first sketch LOOKED like the person depicted in the photo. My question earlier about the sketch wasn’t being critical, but more trying to rationalize the switch in investigative strategy.

I think we live in the CSI age and people think investigations work like 1 hour TV shows and they really don’t. People don’t take into consideration that the BG actively took steps to try not to get caught which makes things difficult. Plus, LE has to deal with the public which can be uncooperative. They have to deal with the court system that says you cant just question/obtain DNA because you’ve got a vibe that it’s the guy or someone’s FB photo looks like the sketch. I think a lot of times LE knows or has a good idea who committed a crime, but they actually need to prove it beyond a shadow of doubt in a court of law otherwise the person gets away with it. We had a case in my area that took 2 decades to solve. EVERYONE, including LE, knew who did it, but it was impossible to prove. Recently was resolved (and made national news) due to LE never giving up.

 

[Cutiekitty]

I imagine this has already been discussed, but there’s a feature on the Snapchat app where you can see all of your Snapchat friends’ current locations on a map. Each person shows up as a little cartoon icon that they pick for themselves. My daughter showed it to me once, and she had everyone in her grade as a “friend” even if though she’s not really friends with all of them, so about 60 kids. Most of them were clustered in our neighborhood, but I could quickly pick out who was traveling, who was outside of our town, etc. So.... speculating, maybe BG simply had access to a one of Libby’s classmates phone, and just glancing at it was able to see that there was a young girl at the trailhead, which is on the edge of town. Since Abby didn’t have a phone, he may have assumed that Libby was alone. MOO.

Excellent idea, but unfortunately wasn’t a feature at the time. SC also has a messaging component that kids use. The messages, like the pics, disappear unless the receiver/sender saves them. Could make this case very difficult if the girls knew bg somehow or someone close to him and that’s how they communicated.

 

[Cutiekitty]

Are subpoenas issued also for depositions?

Yes

 

[MistyWaters]

I imagine this has already been discussed, but there’s a feature on the Snapchat app where you can see all of your Snapchat friends’ current locations on a map. Each person shows up as a little cartoon icon that they pick for themselves. My daughter showed it to me once, and she had everyone in her grade as a “friend” even if though she’s not really friends with all of them, so about 60 kids. Most of them were clustered in our neighborhood, but I could quickly pick out who was traveling, who was outside of our town, etc. So.... speculating, maybe BG simply had access to a one of Libby’s classmates phone, and just glancing at it was able to see that there was a young girl at the trailhead, which is on the edge of town. Since Abby didn’t have a phone, he may have assumed that Libby was alone. MOO.

When Libby sent the Snapchat photo of Abby anyone receiving it would’ve known the two were together. But early on there was certainly a lot of discussion here about the possibility of an online stalking scenario although LE haven’t mentioned any connection to technology other than at the beginning. But sometimes what they don’t talk about is where the investigation has taken them.

 

[MistyWaters]

The reference to subpoenas was made in March, 2017. As the case was and is still unsolved therefore no trial has been set so I think “subpoenas” probably refers to the producing of documents.

“70 search warrants and subpoenas have been served and the probation status of dozens of sex offenders have been reviewed.”
Police investigate thousands of tips one month into Delphi murder investigation

 

[TheVisual]

Just some thoughts today. Just how many people that frequent the bridge would cross the bridge every tine they are there only to come to a dead end and have to turn around and go back. Once you are there there is nowhere to go except go down the hill and cross the creek or walk the road back to town or house at the end. Seems like once you have done the crossing of the bridge it would not be something you would do again just out for a walk in the park. I'm sure most all have done it once in their life but over and over again? Maybe the girls went across so that Abby could experience it her first time. Too bad she didn't say NO. It did make the perfect spot for an encounter.

 

[Matic]

I know hindsight is 20/20 but I have to wonder why a helicopter with FLIR tech wasn't called in to help with the search.

Even if they had to call it in from Indianapolis, it only would have taken 10 minutes to get there.

 

[TL4S]

The Delphi trail seem a really unlikely place for anyone to preplan an attack in the middle of the day.

But bridge is reportedly is 853 ft long, almost 3 football fields, so crossing it right to the end placed the victims quite a long distance away from others on the trail, obviously giving the killer an advantage.

Ever since I first noticed that dirt road that runs beneath the far end of it my theory has been this was an attempted abduction, much like what happened to Jamie Closs except the girls tried to make a break by attempting to flee. But the car parked from noon to 5 pm at the other location has thrown a spanner into that possibility unless it was parked there as a decoy and two people were involved. But that theory becomes a little complicated.

Does anyone remember, around the second anniversary did LE use the word “targeted”? I seem to remember that being discussed but maybe it’s my imagination.

I also remember the word "targeted" used, but can't recall where.

And this is HIGHLY UNLIKELY, but I've occasionally considered that if this was an impulsive act, perhaps he didn't have a gun at all, but had his hand in his pocket and told them he had one there. They were only 13 and 14 years old, alone, isolated, and probably too scared to question it?