Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #103

[Jax49]

Where was this held? Note the religious stuff on the wall.

Supt. Doug Carter of the Indiana State Police addresses the media as the latest details of the investigation into the murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams Wednesday, February 22, 2017, at Delphi United Methodist Church.

Audio clip released in Delphi double homicide

bbm

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Hi all, long time lurker, first time posting. I’ve been intrigued with this case from the start for several reasons. I’m from Indiana and the murders of these two young girls just hits too close to home for many of us here.
IMO, both the known and unknown make this case one of the most bizarre I have ever seen.

I came across Websleuths while searching for information shortly after the news story first broke. The thought provoking ideas and theories that get discussed here are generally very impressive, and unfortunately, rather addictive!

I wish I could throw out a complete and solid theory as to how all of the events unfolded, but there’s just not enough information for me to do so. However, I do have some thoughts / theories as to how some of the pieces may fit together.

I have not read every thread here, so my opinions may have already been discussed at length, or there may be evidence to the contrary, but here it is... (all of which is MOO)

1) I believe this is not the first time this person has committed murder.
Though it is not unusual for the FBI to get involved early in cases such as this, they have had a very noticeable presence from the onset, and as horrific as the murders of two young girls is, there are too many unsolved heinous murders of young people each and every year. SOMETHING about this case makes it different. IMO, either the crime scene, or the manner of death makes them believe they are dealing with a larger than normal threat and I wouldn’t be surprised if it ties back to the IA case. Irregardless, the posting of billboards nationwide is both impressive and concerning.

2) IMO, the released audio doesn’t occur at the bridge. I believe it takes place at the top of the hill above where they were found.
I say this for several reasons...
Firstly, it just doesn’t make sense to me. IF the killer is organized, then I don’t believe he would start an abduction at a point knowing that he would need to control two individuals through rough terrain to get them to his preselected location. IF he was disorganized, I don’t believe he would have the patience to take them to a destination that far away - his impulse and adrenaline would have overcome him and it probably would have occurred right there below the bridge.
Many have speculated that the manner in which he uses the term “guys” suggests familiarity. I don’t totally disagree, but IMO, it’s more of familiarity because he has already gained control- and he knows it.
How they ended up on the other side is anyone’s guess. Perhaps they chose to go a different direction because one of them didn’t want to cross the bridge again. Maybe they felt safer trying to distance themselves from BG. Maybe they were driven from the bridge to the graveyard. ???

3) In regards to the change from the old sketch to the new sketch, I firmly believe that OBG has been identified. There have been several arrests lately for other crimes in which many people believe the accused perpetrator(s) resembles OBG - perhaps one of them is. If he has been identified, it’s very possible that he had his own unrelated reasons for not being found. Once found, he may have provided additional information regarding BG or other elements of this case.

Sorry for such a lengthy post, it’s definitely not what I had intended!

ALL JUST MOO

Welcome!

With a great first post like that it makes me wish you had joined sooner!

 

[bradfordsleuth]

. Is LE playing word games with us? Who knows.

Thanks for throwing this out for discussion. Something else to think about!

Snipped and bbm.
LE is indeed sending a message.

Carter knows exactly who he is talking to and the messages he is sending.

A brilliant job done in the last two pressers.

JMO

 

[bradfordsleuth]

I find it rather odd that the witness that helped with the first sketch couldn't tell what color eyes he had, but knew enough to know they weren't blue, yet this same person didn't notice his clothing was wet?
That is of course unless he was identified before the crime took place.

I think that the witness saw him before the crime took place.
JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Where was this held? Note the religious stuff on the wall.

I’m not sure where it was held but I noticed religious faith has been a predominate theme from the onset. Iirc one PC began with prayer.

 

[sumzero]

I’m not sure where it was held but I noticed religious faith has been a predominate theme from the onset. Iirc one PC began with prayer.

I'll take your word for it. Doug Carter is obviously a deeply religious man. And one of the others, Riley or Tobe L., also has been vocal about his faith. I don't think it says anything about BG, one way or the other.

 

[MistyWaters]

I’m linking another GH video because the topic of who walked where has been discussed a lot. For those who don’t like GH videos, just ignore, but for others it might be very helpful to understand the timeline, the layout of the land and access points. GH makes it clear any added comments are his theories, much like each of us have theories too.

Derrick’s path

 

[MistyWaters]

I'll take your word for it. Doug Carter is obviously a deeply religious man. And one of the others, Riley or Tobe L., also has been vocal about his faith. I don't think it says anything about BG, one way or the other.

I strongly agree and if LE were only pretending to be religious to somehow appeal to a suspect they’d surely be making a mockery of the entire investigation because people affiliated with any of the local churches would see through it immediately.

 

[mtnlites]

IIRC the creek has a place to cross by the sand bar.

It depends on water level but, generally, yes. There are places where the water's only a few inches and you can walk mostly on the sandbar. If the water's up, though, it washes it out.

 

[JDough]

Where was this held? Note the religious stuff on the wall.

I’m not sure where it was held but I noticed religious faith has been a predominate theme from the onset. Iirc one PC began with prayer.

According to the church newsletter previously posted, the Delphi United Methodist Church hosted the PC.

 

[crhedBngr]

"The sketch isn’t a photograph. A sketch is a sketch and that’s really important for everybody to understand," Carter said. "I believe that the individual when we catch him, it will be a combination of those two.”

Is Carter saying that they believe the individual responsible for this is expected to physically resemble both sketches combined, or am I misunderstanding?

RBBM

We're not sure.

When I originally transcribed this interview and posted it here, I thought Carter was comparing the original sketch to the new sketch. Others thought he was comparing the new sketch to a photograph.

 

[crhedBngr]

Hi all, long time lurker, first time posting. I’ve been intrigued with this case from the start for several reasons. I’m from Indiana and the murders of these two young girls just hits too close to home for many of us here.
IMO, both the known and unknown make this case one of the most bizarre I have ever seen.
<RSBMFF>
3) In regards to the change from the old sketch to the new sketch, I firmly believe that OBG has been identified. There have been several arrests lately for other crimes in which many people believe the accused perpetrator(s) resembles OBG - perhaps one of them is. If he has been identified, it’s very possible that he had his own unrelated reasons for not being found. Once found, he may have provided additional information regarding BG or other elements of this case.

Sorry for such a lengthy post, it’s definitely not what I had intended!

ALL JUST MOO

RBBM

I'm really glad to hear about some arrests.

And, by the way . . .

Welcome to all new posters!

 

[Sneaker33]

I wonder about only libby's name in capital letters above (beneath it the 2 pics of the 2 victims) .....

There is also one with Abby's full name in bold. Libby's picture is below positioned similar to Anna's. I guess they decided to do a separate notice for each girl.

 

[pepper 34]

IIRC the creek has a place to cross by the sand bar.

The sandbar wasn't exposed though... there was water they would have had to wade through; though not deep water. I see no reason why BG couldn't have left an extra pair of pants nearby the CS (or on his pre-planned escape route and, in either case he's have hidden them under leaves, I would think) ...or had a dry pair of extra jeans in a plastic bag that he may have stuffed down into his jacket. After killing the girls, he could simply put the wet pair into the bag and pull on the dry pair. The creek was shallow enough that only the bottoms of the pants would have gotten wet anyway. It wouldn't take much more than a minute or two to change pants. There are outbuildings and sheds in the area where he could change his clothing, too.

ETA: Someone mentioned that BG's jacket appeared to be on inside out. After killing the girls, he could easily just turn the jacket right side out... or inside out if it was not inside out in the first place. Then quickly wash his hands and face in the creek, if necessary. That would be sufficient to make a quick escape in the case there was bloodshed from the murder scene.

 

[MDATCA]

I think that the witness saw him before the crime took place.
JMO

I agree he was seen before not after. Imo he slipped out through the woods to avoid being seen after.

If he had walked back across the bridge and through the park it is likely Derick German would have seen him and noted he was wet disheveled and at the very least dirty from covering them with leaves if not bloody.

Unless he had a change of clothes but I can't figure out what he would have done with the bulky clothes he was wearing. Also he does not appear to be carrying a bag in the pics that would have new clothes in it.

 

[pepper 34]

I agree he was seen before not after. Imo he slipped out through the woods to avoid being seen after.

If he had walked back across the bridge and through the park it is likely Derick German would have seen him and noted he was wet disheveled and at the very least dirty from covering them with leaves if not bloody.

Unless he had a change of clothes but I can't figure out what he would have done with the bulky clothes he was wearing. Also he does not appear to be carrying a bag in the pics that would have new clothes in it.

LE was asking early on if anyone had seen a hitchhiker or someone walking with a backpack that day, weren't they? I'm pretty sure they were. LE was asking these kinds of questions a long time ago and that seems to be the possible answer they came up with... the wet clothing could have been carried in a back pack, imo. No doubt men's clothing was on the search warrant list when they went to RL's place.
ETA: He could have left the back pack, if he had one, near the CS ahead of time or hidden elsewhere. That doesn't negate the theory that BG had a vehicle nearby... if he did, he still needed to get to that vehicle without raising questions due to wet or bloody clothing, imo. It seems very possible that, at the time, LE didn't know about a vehicle that could have been "involved."

 

[Krwiley60]

The updated version of the FBI poster lists the suspect's eye colour as 'unknown' as opposed to 'not blue'. I'm thinking the 'not blue' description was based on a different witness who contributed to the composite of OBG, which LE have stated is a different person who is no longer a suspect. OBG would not have been wet because he was not involved in the murder.

Something else I think might be worth noting from the FBI poster is that the still image of BG (taken from the bridge) is referred to as a 'photo'. In DC's most recent interview he confused so many people by stating that the suspect's actual appearance will be 'somewhere between the two' which many took to mean the two sketches. But he actually means the sketch and 'photo'. See above, they are side by side in the poster.

But isn’t OBG’s body still NBG’s? But different face?

 

[helenann2k]

Long time since I've posted here, but I thought I'd add my two cents today. I felt discouraged by the latest LE comments. I had thought they were on to someone, but now they are again waiting for that one tip. Confusing to say the least. IMO, completely my own musings, I think BG is someone close by or close enough to know about this trail. I also think he went there knowing these girls would be there. How? I'm not sure. A long time ago we were forbidden from talking about Geocashing here, because innocent people were being sleuthed, and I understand that. But BG could have found out anonymously about who geocached in the area, and the girls were into geocaching (can't find link but it was posted early on). It is a long shot, but what the heck. Another idea I had involves the the area close to where the girls were found. Maybe it is just a hunch, but if LE really believes this person is walking among them, I keep thinking it may be a relative of someone the girls knew. Finally, I followed the Lyric and Lizzie case, and cannot help feeling they are too similar to not re-examine (for third time, perhaps?)

 

[Sillybilly]

There is no known fact to substantiate that religion is germane to this case. Discussion of religion is not allowed and numerous posts discussing priests and Catholicism have been removed as off topic.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

LE was asking early on if anyone had seen a hitchhiker or someone walking with a backpack that day, weren't they? I'm pretty sure they were. LE was asking these kinds of questions a long time ago and that seems to be the possible answer they came up with... the wet clothing could have been carried in a back pack, imo. No doubt men's clothing was on the search warrant list when they went to RL's place.
ETA: He could have left the back pack, if he had one, near the CS ahead of time or hidden elsewhere. That doesn't negate the theory that BG had a vehicle nearby... if he did, he still needed to get to that vehicle without raising questions due to wet or bloody clothing, imo. It seems very possible that, at the time, LE didn't know about a vehicle that could have been "involved."

What if the hitchhiker was the witness?

What if he saw BG prior to the crime face-to-face and that's why LE asked early on if anyone had seen a hitchiker?

LE needed to have someone else confirm the hitchiker's story that the hitchiker had been in the area.

I think that maybe the hitchiker was the person whe 'saw something that needed to be reported' and early on...LE followed this up.

I don't think that the hitchiker was ever a suspect....perhaps due to height or build.

The sketch came approx. 4 days later and the shout-out to see if anyone saw a hitchiker was about a week after the murders.

They were checking out the hitchikers story...and at the time, they dismissed what the hitchiker said.

This is one of the things that I can think of that they were 'onto something early on' per Carter.

JMO