Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #103

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Has anyone thought that MAYBE LE would create a sketch to throw everyone off the sketch of OBG ? Just look at their eyes, nose, forehead book and do this to throw off OBG so that he would think he's in the clear and then maybe make a mistake? (maybe they are watching him already)Yes, it would create work for them but they could just throw all of those tips out the window and they could do their work without us bothering them.

I don’t think that’s likely. If LE wanted to dim the light on a suspect all they’d have to do is not hold PCs or generate any attention getting information, stay silent and make it appear the case had grown cold while they continued to watch.

There’s also an integrity factor and how far LE can reasonably go if they choose to become involved in public deception. To intentionally deceive the people of Delphi and the families into believing the second sketch is now the suspect, to insinuate the killer might be hiding in plain sight amongst them while appealing for tips clearly causes needless anguish and suspicion within their community that totally crosses the line IMO.
 
None of those places were good places to park if one was considering committing a murder. It continues to be a mystery.

Surveillance depends on many different things including size of force, location of cemetery, time of day, history of crime, etc. If they see a car parked there, they're mostly going to assume that that the person's there to see a grave. The cemetery by the park has some really old graves in it. Some people like to go up there and do etchings (which they really shouldn't do) or just to walk around and take pictures. It wouldn't be suspicious to see a car there. In a lot of small towns if there's one in the middle of town and it has a reputation for being a place where criminal mischief happens then they might go in there if it's after dark and they see headlights, but for a small force there's generally more than enough to keep them busy. LE doesn't patrol any of ours and only go up there if someone makes a call about vandalism.
I've often wondered if the cemetery had old graves and might be a spot for taking pictures. I know teens often like to do that. Here goes my theory again. The girls spot BG on the bridge, notice him, take a quick video and continue on their way to the cemetery for another photoshoot. As they wander down they engage in girl talk (and in my theory cross the stream) when they notice the "creepy guy" close behind them. He come up on them before they can flee, and attacks them. This is different than other theories and may well be wrong. It is the way I visualize things, though, because of the difficult terrain and the challenge of leading two girls down and across the stream. Totally MOO
 
We do know this new sketch was done within three days. We don't know why it was shelved. Speculating from what was said at the 4/22 PC it could be he was identified and discounted, once they had the video or by alibi or by something else e.g. mistake or deliberate misleading by a witness or that witness has been arrested for something else since this sketch has now been brought into play. If it was discounted by alibi and is somehow related to the vehicle, then I believe they may well know who that sketch represents. MOO.
I think you are right that they have figured out who the OBG is and it is not him who committed the murders. MOO
 
None that we know of. But hopefully something we don't know about - yet!

May this week be the week!
I sure hope so. But what I'm afraid of is that HLN special a few weeks back: "Are we any closer to an arrest or not?" Casey Jordan said, "I'm gonna say yes, but if it doesn't happen in the next few weeks I'm gonna worry this is a hail mary pass and they have nothing."

And here we are a few weeks later :(

@ 1:45:
 
I've often wondered if the cemetery had old graves and might be a spot for taking pictures. I know teens often like to do that. Here goes my theory again. The girls spot BG on the bridge, notice him, take a quick video and continue on their way to the cemetery for another photoshoot. As they wander down they engage in girl talk (and in my theory cross the stream) when they notice the "creepy guy" close behind them. He come up on them before they can flee, and attacks them. This is different than other theories and may well be wrong. It is the way I visualize things, though, because of the difficult terrain and the challenge of leading two girls down and across the stream. Totally MOO

Early on in these threads the depth of the river on that day was discussed in great detail. Part of the reason was because some people believed it was highly unlikely anybody crossed the river at all, instead they crossed back over the bridge.

IIRC there’d been some snowfall a couple days prior including general spring melt and the river was even higher on Feb 13th than later as shown in the video of the searchers walking in a formation searching the river bottom for evidence. And even though it was a warm Feb day, it still wasn’t that warm. The water could’ve easily been as high as waste deep and only a few degrees above freezing. It definitely wouldn’t have been a splish- splash ankle deep, hop over the sand bars type of river crossing river in Feb.

Considering this, just my own opinion, I have a really hard time imagining either of the girls crossed the river willingly or the murderer intended to lead them across it. But if he did, he must’ve sought knowledge of the river in advance, to know where to cross to avoid undercurrents or deep channels. But it’s also why I think the girls attempted to flee, taking the chance of crossing the river believing once they got to the other side they’d be safe. JMO

ETA - fishermen tend to know everything about rivers they fish.
 
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I think you are right that they have figured out who the OBG is and it is not him who committed the murders. MOO

MOO they figured out who OBG is
or that it the OBG was a false report somehow.

OBG was supposed to be the only unaccounted for person in the trail that day.
But if YBG was seen somewhere else than the trail it would make sense, like walking back over I25 to get back to Delphi.

I still think a local one use DNA drive data base is the way to go. Supermarkets, library, downtown.
 
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Great point!

I agree and as well I think he likely was wearing gloves.
Not his first attack. When they find this miscreant, several other murders may be solved as well.
Coward. Picking on little teens. I relish the thought of him locked up, forgotten for the Coward he is...rotting away.

Amateur opinion and speculation.
 
...
(snipped to highlight the following sentence):
I think there were probably multiple people walking the trails that day, but I'm leaning towards the impressions I get that many people walk the trails but don't actually cross the monon high bridge or even hike all the way to it.

There's somewhat of an intersection near the bridge where at least one other trail ( I think two of them) breaks off and heads down toward the creek on the west and east side of the bridge

I think any sightings of BG were either before the crime when BG was heading west from the CPS parking area

Or when he was returning via the trails back to the cps building after committing the crimes

Unfortunately at the time I don't believe that anyone had much reason to be suspicious of BG

I still lean towards the girls being suspicious bc they had likely already passed him once at some point and he was walking up on them towards the end of the bridge

I don't believe he is wearing an type of disguise, I think that people just see what they want to see in the pixilated video images

I think the most recent sketch is probably fairly close to the face that we see in the blurry bridge images

What still baffles me is that as far as we know nobody has been able to tie, the sketch, the audio, and the body of BG from libbys video on the bridge to a specific individual

Thats 3 possible identifying factors that just baffles me that nobody has come forward to say, Thats my neighbor,my delivery guy, coworker, family friend, etc etc

We have seen people come forward and identify a perp with much fewer identifying characteristics

JMO

Dear @ab01 ,

I highlighted your sentence (above) because I agree that this is a key factor.

The area and the nature trails look lovely and I can certainly see why people of all ages would walk/hike along the paths.

As to the unsafe bridge - unless someone was intent on taking photographs from the viewpoint of this treacherous and high bridge - I can't see the average person even considering to attempt to walk on it.

I can see some adventurous people occasionally crossing it - teens or older. Since there really is nothing of historical significance or another path on the other side - I agree that there would be a very limited number of people who would want to cross it.

The perpetrator, unfortunately, was aware of this.
 
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Let me throw out a notion I have on the profile of the Coward. I think he is 16-19, and very orderly and meticulous. Even the depiction of his tightly neat little hairdo speaks to that.

He might work part time while in school doing something inventory oriented where order and control is required. Stocking and aligning supermarket shelves, or auto parts inventory comes to mind. Even a bag boy, where spatial skills and organized grocery packing is a plus.

Organized, meticulous, order, control.

Amateur opinion and speculation
 
I sure hope so. But what I'm afraid of is that HLN special a few weeks back: "Are we any closer to an arrest or not?" Casey Jordan said, "I'm gonna say yes, but if it doesn't happen in the next few weeks I'm gonna worry this is a hail mary pass and they have nothing."

And here we are a few weeks later :(

@ 1:45:
This is almost verbatim what a co-host of Best Case Worst Case (podcast) said shortly after the last PC.
 
I've often wondered if the cemetery had old graves and might be a spot for taking pictures. I know teens often like to do that. Here goes my theory again. The girls spot BG on the bridge, notice him, take a quick video and continue on their way to the cemetery for another photoshoot. As they wander down they engage in girl talk (and in my theory cross the stream) when they notice the "creepy guy" close behind them. He come up on them before they can flee, and attacks them. This is different than other theories and may well be wrong. It is the way I visualize things, though, because of the difficult terrain and the challenge of leading two girls down and across the stream. Totally MOO
Based on what's been released thus far, I don't believe LE's timeline per their evidence of timestamp photo's and video provide for a trip to the cemetery. MOO
 
ISP seems energized. Nothing was happening with a dead end lead, now they have thousands more tips to look into and they may get on the right path accidentally.
Even if their info slightly off, by keeping the pressure up. they easily could uncover real information along the way, the way you find things if you just keep looking and going over where you already looked.
 
I sure hope so. But what I'm afraid of is that HLN special a few weeks back: "Are we any closer to an arrest or not?" Casey Jordan said, "I'm gonna say yes, but if it doesn't happen in the next few weeks I'm gonna worry this is a hail mary pass and they have nothing."

And here we are a few weeks later :(

@ 1:45:

Dear @CrimeDawg123 ,

I understand what you are saying and that's a great point.

To me, I listen to their viewpoints which are very valuable, given their experience.

It's not that I disagree with what these experts are saying, however, they also are not privy to all of the information and evidence that the investigative team has already gathered.

If the experts had knowledge of all of the information the L.E. have on this case, perhaps they would say otherwise. Then again, perhaps no.

Am I being too optimistic about them solving this case soon? (I do season my hope with healthy dashes of reality and reason :))

My view that this case will be solved soon is buoyed by the momentum ensuing from the recent press conference, the "new direction" and the recent news interviews of Doug Carter.

My hope is that they are able to build a case that can result in this perpetrator being arrested before he murders again.

Justice for Abby and Libby.
 
Early on in these threads the depth of the river on that day was discussed in great detail. Part of the reason was because some people believed it was highly unlikely anybody crossed the river at all, instead they crossed back over the bridge.

IIRC there’d been some snowfall a couple days prior including general spring melt and the river was even higher on Feb 13th than later as shown in the video of the searchers walking in a formation searching the river bottom for evidence. And even though it was a warm Feb day, it still wasn’t that warm. The water could’ve easily been as high as waste deep and only a few degrees above freezing. It definitely wouldn’t have been a splish- splash ankle deep, hop over the sand bars type of river crossing river in Feb.

Considering this, just my own opinion, I have a really hard time imagining either of the girls crossed the river willingly or the murderer intended to lead them across it. But if he did, he must’ve sought knowledge of the river in advance, to know where to cross to avoid undercurrents or deep channels. But it’s also why I think the girls attempted to flee, taking the chance of crossing the river believing once they got to the other side they’d be safe. JMO

ETA - fishermen tend to know everything about rivers they fish.
True enough. However, many posters have pointed out that there is a sandbar where the river is only a few inches deep if one knows how to hop across it. The girls may have know of it, and could cross easily, especially if they removed their shoes. Again, this is just my theory. The girls did seem adventurous, given the bridge photos. MOO. If they removed their shoes, maybe there was not time to put them on again before BG confronted them. That could explain the strange comment, discussed by many posters, relating to an early interview or news story about the discovery of the murdered girls where a searcher asked about shoes. Perhaps a shoe was seen before the bodies were found. That would make sense if the girls waded across. Again, all my opinion only. MOO.
 
Based on what's been released thus far, I don't believe LE's timeline per their evidence of timestamp photo's and video provide for a trip to the cemetery. MOO
Perhaps not. Maybe the girls thought they could be a bit late though. I don't know how long it would take to get to the cemetery, but since they were killed near it, there was time to murder them. Why wouldn't there have been time for them to go there for a quick photoshoot, if they didn't mind being a few minutes late for their ride back? I don't know if this is what happened, but I think the time would not be a problem. MOO
 
Yeah, I can’t find a double murder case that has the elements that we have here.

If we take away the incredibly unusual fact that he killed two victims at once, and just focus on the fact that he committed murder, then I can find similarities.

That’s how I’m approaching it, because I believe we are seeing a variation of the same thing.

As a model, I look at killers who target joggers on jogging trails. They tend to share a lot of traits with serial killers, even if they haven’t yet met the criteria for being one.

They see their victim, they make contact with their victim, they drag her off the trail, and commit their grotesque acts under the cover of trees and brush.

There is plenty of precedent for that particular MO.

I think this guy was looking to commit rape, and unfortunately found the girls.

The case I’ve come back to a million times (because it happened near me), is the Vanessa Marcotte murder.

Her killer had no previous criminal history, and simply came upon her jogging.

He pulled over, attacked her, dragged her into the woods, sexually assaulted her, and ultimately beat and strangled her to death.

It was a rural area, and everyone assumed that he must have had a reason to be there (he was likely from there).

Thanks to an accurate physical description (in part) from Parabon, and an alert state police officer who spotted a vehicle that matched one seen in the area, he was ultimately arrested.

It turned out that his delivery route went through that town, and although he was off work that day, he likely (my opinion) drove from his neighboring city to this area where he had previously seen joggers running.

He was probably hunting, and came across a target of opportunity.

I think that’s what we’re looking at here. He just killed two instead of the usual one.

Just because one part of the crime is particularly unusual, doesn’t mean that all of it is. That’s how I see it anyways.

So this is different, but likely the same.

MassGuy, I was just thinking more on something you said. About if one part of a crime is particularly unusual that doesn't mean all of it is. The most important non-correlation with Marcotte case we talked about would then point to, in my mind, that BG is probably not a family man.

Why take that chance with two victims at the same time if you were established in a job, settled and married with three kids? You'd want to have even odds to assure your success because you have a lot of normal to lose if caught. We know there was another woman hiking and taking pictures that day, right around the time of the murders too so he could have looked at the girls buddied up and decide no too risky, I'll wait for someone alone. On such a beautiful day odds were leaning in his favor he'd have found a single victim alone.

He either in that moment threw all his normal to the wind and put his whole life in jeopardy or he had none of that established normal to lose. What kind of person does that willingly, changes that out of the ordinary random murderer MO?

This guy could have so much confidence because he's had training. Maybe military, maybe LE or just someone with a job where he's states something to do and people jump to it. He's use to people deferring to him.

Not being able to find a single case with similar circumstances of killing two at once with no kidnapping and transportation of the victims to another place involved, in broad daylight in a public area just begs to identify the reasoning of the killer to go through with it. The reasoning to take that chance.

I know there's probably logical stuff I'm missing but I think that bridge between a single victim killer to a double one holds an important clue.
 
I have always been interested in crime, even before my son died (which wasn't a result of a crime). My interest in it has always been in the way investigators doggedly follow leads until they can get justice for the victims and their families. It has also been in making sure that people see the human side of a victim that some may feel deserved less sympathy than some other victims.

I loved Ann Rule's book "Green River, Running Red" because she focused a lot on the human side of the victims that many people only saw as numbers because the majority of them had been involved in prostitution, drugs, etc. Ann humanized many of them so you could see that many of these women had been victimized long before they turned to drugs and prostitution, only to finally become a victim of the the Green River Killer. One story in particular stuck with me - one of the girls was in 8th grade and babysitting when some boys from her school came to the house she was babysitting at. She was raped and was never able to cope with what happened and started to use drugs to self-medicate. Prior to that she was a great student, was in the school band (clarinet, I think), etc. She wasn't a statistic! She was someone's daughter, sister, friend.

None of us ever know how we would deal with some of the things others have to go through. We all come from different places and have different minds, strengths, weaknesses, support systems, etc. "There but for the grace of God go I."

Lastly, although I miss my son dearly and wish he was still here, I am forever grateful that I was with him when he died, I know where he is and what happened, etc. I am not saying that the loss of any child is more tragic than another, but for me I feel so fortunate that I don't have the added pain of wondering what my child may have endured, who did or, like in the case of missing children, are they dead or live?

God bless you.
 
Dear @CrimeDawg123 ,

I understand what you are saying and that's a great point.

To me, I listen to their viewpoints which are very valuable, given their experience.

It's not that I disagree with what these experts are saying, however, they also are not privy to all of the information and evidence that the investigative team has already gathered.

If the experts had knowledge of all of the information the L.E. have on this case, perhaps they would say otherwise. Then again, perhaps no.

Am I being too optimistic about them solving this case soon? (I do season my hope with healthy dashes of reality and reason :))

My view that this case will be solved soon is buoyed by the momentum ensuing from the recent press conference, the "new direction" and the recent news interviews of Doug Carter.

My hope is that they are able to build a case that can result in this perpetrator being arrested before he murders again.

Justice for Abby and Libby.
I hope they are as close as many people believe. I was excited by the confidence Carter displayed at the press conference. I want justice for these girls and their families so bad, I really get my hopes up. I cannot imagine the suffering the girls' loved ones have gone through. I just can't. I want this over with.
 
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