Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #103

[Bluntgirl]

Bluntgirl
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...feb-2017-103.444805/members/bluntgirl.243132/
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...feb-2017-103.444805/members/bluntgirl.243132/
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And in MOO, that witness, the one person that gave info to the FBI sketch artist that resulted in the first released sketch, is BG.


Interesting theory!! Although if they suspect that original witness who helped create first BG sketch was indeed BG, why the public plea for help identifying him? Wouldn’t they just question that original witness again or the other witnesses? What information could the public add now?

Surely they have the names of all the people present in the area on the day of the crime, except BG, so why not just go to them and ask for information, show the new sketch?

It’s rather baffling

Yes, sooo baffling!
MOO, LE may have been confident this 'witness' wouldn't have been dishonest, but with the new info, maybe they thought he lied? My opinion is they now know who their suspect is. They questioned him again but still can't pin him to the murders....

Please poke holes in my theory because I'm down the rabbit hole and cant get out!

 

[TheVisual]

True enough. However, many posters have pointed out that there is a sandbar where the river is only a few inches deep if one knows how to hop across it. The girls may have know of it, and could cross easily, especially if they removed their shoes. Again, this is just my theory. The girls did seem adventurous, given the bridge photos. MOO. If they removed their shoes, maybe there was not time to put them on again before BG confronted them. That could explain the strange comment, discussed by many posters, relating to an early interview or news story about the discovery of the murdered girls where a searcher asked about shoes. Perhaps a shoe was seen before the bodies were found. That would make sense if the girls waded across. Again, all my opinion only. MOO.

If I was running from someone I sure as heck wouldn't take time to take off my shoes. I'd run like h--l. JMO

 

[Boxer]

Perhaps not. Maybe the girls thought they could be a bit late though. I don't know how long it would take to get to the cemetery, but since they were killed near it, there was time to murder them. Why wouldn't there have been time for them to go there for a quick photoshoot, if they didn't mind being a few minutes late for their ride back? I don't know if this is what happened, but I think the time would not be a problem. MOO

MOO since there is a path from the back if the cemetery to the NW end of the bridge , I think they would recross the bridge and walk over.
I do think with effort you can get over the creek by the sandbar only getting shoes wet, but wet shoes are not great either, most people would avoid wet shoes if they had a choice.
MOO unfortunately I think he had control immediately and kept it.

 

[nearsouth]

I've got a question that has probably been answered, but is there a known list of people that knew Abby and Libby were headed to the park/bridge area?

Obviously Libby's grandparents, Derrick, and Kelsi (hopefully I spelled that correctly). Did they tell Abby's mom? Anyone else?

Also, they were supposedly cleaning their softball equipment that day at the field? Did anyone speak to them there? I guess that's sort of a rhetorical question.

Might be impossible to know, but was curious if there was any info on it. I can't seem to find any.

 

[sunshineray]

There are definite similarities and differences between the cases of Abby & Libby and Lyric & Elizabeth. I am not convinced either way that they are or are not related. A lot of people point to the fact that Lyric & Elizabeth were removed from the probable abduction site and their bodies were found several miles away. However, I have never been convinced that whatever happened to Abby and Libby went like the killer wanted it to go. At this point I don't know if his intent was to kill and get the hell out of there or did he possibly intend to abduct them so he could have more time before disposing of their bodies in another location. If he did intend on abducting them from the park he very well may have been interrupted by family members calling out for them and this caused him to abort his plan and just leave the bodies where they were.

If this is the case, then I still feel there is a possibility the Indiana and Iowa crimes could be connected - but I'm far from convinced either way.

If that was the case, he would have had to brought them down the hill with the thought of crossing the creek, then go up the terrain to a spot he had a vehicle waiting or an area of complete cover close by. Isn't that private road not far up the terrain from the creek side the girls were found at? Does anyone know if that road is a dead end?

I too believe killer was rushed for some reason but I don't know if he'd have stayed put very long anyway after choosing to kill there near a traveled trail system on a warm day (Libby's father mentioned in that recently posted video with Megan Kelly it was low 60's).

 

[Boxer]

If I was running from someone I sure as heck wouldn't take time to take off my shoes. I'd run like h--l. JMO

MOO sadly most regular shoes come flying off when you are running your fastest. <modsnip: removed rumor>

 

[sunshineray]

By chance, do you have a link for the first sentence?

Reason I ask.... I am doing some comparisons of this case with other double murders. Kathy and Samantha Netherlands were killed in their home (different from Libby and Abby), but similar in that LE also await that “one tip” (a car).

I was reading in many different places and just formed my opinion that way. I was googling the double murder of two victims at once angle and coming up with nothing simular. I was really looking for someone who'd been caught killing with those A&L circumstances so I could see what that killer was about.

 

[MistyWaters]

True enough. However, many posters have pointed out that there is a sandbar where the river is only a few inches deep if one knows how to hop across it. The girls may have know of it, and could cross easily, especially if they removed their shoes. Again, this is just my theory. The girls did seem adventurous, given the bridge photos. MOO. If they removed their shoes, maybe there was not time to put them on again before BG confronted them. That could explain the strange comment, discussed by many posters, relating to an early interview or news story about the discovery of the murdered girls where a searcher asked about shoes. Perhaps a shoe was seen before the bodies were found. That would make sense if the girls waded across. Again, all my opinion only. MOO.

Yes there is a sandbar as shown on google but the trees are also in full leaf. Towards the end of summer and particularly during a dry spell the flow of rivers is always far less.

Have you watched the video of the searchers in the river? If not
I’ll see if I can find it because you’ll notice the flow is fairly significant.

 

[Seattle1]

Perhaps not. Maybe the girls thought they could be a bit late though. I don't know how long it would take to get to the cemetery, but since they were killed near it, there was time to murder them. Why wouldn't there have been time for them to go there for a quick photoshoot, if they didn't mind being a few minutes late for their ride back? I don't know if this is what happened, but I think the time would not be a problem. MOO

I don't doubt that they would not mind being tardy for their ride except they reportedly stopped answering the phone almost immediately if I remember correctly. I think they would have answered if they were at the cemetery, or sent text they were going to be late meeting their ride.

I wish they would have avoided the bridge altogether on 2/13/17 and just took photos in the cemetery....

MOO

 

[MassGuy]

MassGuy, I was just thinking more on something you said. About if one part of a crime is particularly unusual that doesn't mean all of it is. The most important non-correlation with Marcotte case we talked about would then point to, in my mind, that BG is probably not a family man.

Why take that chance with two victims at the same time if you were established in a job, settled and married with three kids? You'd want to have even odds to assure your success because you have a lot of normal to lose if caught. We know there was another woman hiking and taking pictures that day, right around the time of the murders too so he could have looked at the girls buddied up and decide no too risky, I'll wait for someone alone. On such a beautiful day odds were leaning in his favor he'd have found a single victim alone.

He either in that moment threw all his normal to the wind and put his whole life in jeopardy or he had none of that established normal to lose. What kind of person does that willingly, changes that out of the ordinary random murderer MO?

This guy could have so much confidence because he's had training. Maybe military, maybe LE or just someone with a job where he's states something to do and people jump to it. He's use to people deferring to him.

Not being able to find a single case with similar circumstances of killing two at once with no kidnapping and transportation of the victims to another place involved, in broad daylight in a public area just begs to identify the reasoning of the killer to go through with it. The reasoning to take that chance.

I know there's probably logical stuff I'm missing but I think that bridge between a single victim killer to a double one holds an important clue.

The problem here is that you are thinking logically, many of these guys don’t do that.

They don’t think about the risks, and what they stand to lose. Some are more impulsive than others.

Organized killers take risks. Disorganized killers tend to take bigger risks. Either way, their freedom is on the line.

They just don’t care; they want what they want.

If this guy doesn’t have a family, it is because he is incapable of maintaining a relationship.

If he does have a significant other, it’s probably a dominant relationship on his part, and likely abusive.

 

[sunshineray]

Simply based on past case studies and research, I think this guy has a lower IQ, low self-esteem, and is quite impulse driven. He may have some self-loathing etc but I do not believe that is why he was so brazen - I think he really just isn’t all that bright, to be honest. Not a criminal mastermind that some make him out to be.

I don’t think that many of the factors we are considering (daylight, two girls, etc) came into play for him. Once he had it in his mind what he wanted to do, he set out to do it. He got lucky (not just in his victim choice but in the fact that he seemingly wasn’t seen, still hasn’t been caught, etc. MOO.

Timing is everything. A few seconds or minutes can make all the difference between life and death - take a car accident for example. If Mr. X had left only 10 seconds later from his house, he would not have been in an intersection when a semi ran a red light and hit him.

Had someone else decided to go for a run that day, had BG chose a different time to hunt etc we may not be discussing this case right now, MOO.

The girls were just really, truly, terribly unlucky.

Beth thanks for your answer, I appreciate your point of view. I've thought about that side too. If killer is of the other side of that spectrum, not too bright, doesn't really think things through, wouldn't that lend itself to him being apprehended already? I think, jeez a person like that, dumb luck would have to run out and someone would know, would notice early on, give a tip and he'd be caught. That's why I'm leaning the other way. Killer is probably bold and self-confident and there's a reason in his circumstamces that he told himself going after two at once was in his wheelhouse. AJMO

 

[Jax49]

Yes there is a sandbar as shown on google but the trees are also in full leaf. Towards the end of summer and particularly during a dry spell the flow of rivers is always far less.

Have you watched the video of the searchers in the river? If not
I’ll see if I can find it because you’ll notice the flow is fairly significant.

 

[MistyWaters]

See Jax’s video - the camera pans down on the searchers in the river several times. I notice the river is typical of spring runoff where it’s very murky and the bottom can’t be easily seen. I have no clue where an earlier poster obtained river flow data but in early threads this was discussed and it seemed to prove the river was a bit higher on the 13th.

That you for finding it!

 

[MassGuy]

Beth thanks for your answer, I appreciate your point of view. I've thought about that side too. If killer is of the other side of that spectrum, not too bright, doesn't really think things through, wouldn't that lend itself to him being apprehended already? I think, jeez a person like that, dumb luck would have to run out and someone would know, would notice early on, give a tip and he'd be caught. That's why I'm leaning the other way. Killer is probably bold and self-confident and there's a reason in his circumstamces that he told himself going after two at once was in his wheelhouse. AJMO

Luck can be more important than intelligence when it comes to getting away with crimes like this.

Just look at Carl Eugene Watts, who murdered between 14 and 100 women.

His IQ was 75.

 

[sunshineray]

The problem here is that you are thinking logically, many of these guys don’t do that.

They don’t think about the risks, and what they stand to lose. Some are more impulsive than others.

Organized killers take risks. Disorganized killers tend to take bigger risks. Either way, their freedom is on the line.

They just don’t care; they want what they want.

If this guy doesn’t have a family, it is because he is incapable of maintaining a relationship.

If he does have a significant other, it’s probably a dominant relationship on his part, and likely abusive.

You're right I'm sure. How can there be logic, to a normal and peaceful person, for such evil disregard for life. I'm looking for rational clues to decipher the behavior of a person that there's a 50/5 chance doesn't use rationale in his life. It will be something to delve into when he's caught and I firmly believe he will be caught.

 

[MassGuy]

You're right I'm sure. How can there be logic, to a normal and peaceful person, for such evil disregard for life. I'm looking for rational clues to decipher the behavior of a person that there's a 50/5 chance doesn't use rationale in his life. It will be something to delve into when he's caught and I firmly believe he will be caught.

Yeah. I think the trick is to not try and use normal logic in an attempt to understand his thought process.

To understand a guy like him, you have to look at the behavior of others who have committed similar crimes.

He’s not special, and there are many people like him. Which is kind of scary, if you think about it.

 

[TXFForever]

I'm just learning about this case and I am heartbroken for these girls. Just devastated.

 

[mtnlites]

It may not matter in the grand scheme of things, but I've seen several references to the body of water being a "river", and it's not. It's a creek. One of the main differences between the two is that a creek is usually much smaller, from water depth to width. I know some use the two interchangeably, but when "river" is used, in context of this discussion it may make it more difficult to imagine the girls crossing it. I've seen the creek so low that, in some places, water seems to be barely more than an inch. It's been low enough at times that you can walk straight across it, either walking on the mud or using the rocks as stepping stones. And then, 6 feet away, it changes depth again. On the 13th and 14th it was pretty much its average depth, but even then there would've been places in it where it wasn't super deep. I'm 4'10" and I've been able to easily cross it even after rain, though you have to kind of know where to walk. At most it's been up to my waist but not in every single spot.

I don't think the girls would've gone across it on their own volition, though. I think they were either forced through it or ran through it in panic. It's been regularly referenced that it was a nice day, but in context it was a nice day for February-not, like, in general. It was still chilly outside. The creek waters would've been freezing. It was still winter. Even at its lowest points down through there, they wouldn't have been able to cross it without at least getting their shins wet-probably more like their knees and maybe even waists depending on where they went over. I wouldn't have done that just for the fun of it. Way too cold.

We don't really know where Abby and Libby crossed, only where they were found.

 

[sunshineray]

Anyone local to the area know what's the schedule in Carroll County for grand jury meetings. I know for this case they'll probably form a special one anyway but I was just wondering what time of the month do indictments usually get handed down in Carroll County? TIA

 

[Mellowmelly]

I've been checking in here every day in the hopes of reading of an arrest. The more time goes by it seems less hopeful to me that they will catch this guy, until perhaps he murders again and if they find DNA linking him to both crimes. That is if he hasn't already murdered again, I dread to think. Sorry to be such a pessimist.