Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #103

[TL4S]

And if murder was premeditated it makes no sense why a murderer would want other people to see him, disguised or not. It’s not as if there was only one single access point to the bridge. He had no way of knowing Libby was prepared with her cellphone and caught his image on video or recorded his voice.

Unless the disguise theory comes from the notion the murderer knew and encouraged Libby to participate in some sort of theatrical performance by videoing him, but that’s lightyears away from the facts of the case.

Let's hope that doesn't start a new string of theatrical theories.

And anyway, I don't see anything odd about the way BG was dressed. It seems perfectly normal for the time of year, rural America.

 

[MistyWaters]

HLN just now, Carter says ....If he hasn't killed before he is likely to do it again.

Of my goodness, does he think people don’t already know that?

“This person’s evil. This person is a monster,” lead investigator Sergeant Jerry Holeman said in a TV interview. “This could happen again. So if you’re holding that information for whatever reason, you need to think of that. This could happen to your niece, daughter, cousin, sister.”
‘Hiding in Plain Sight’: Police Release New Audio, Video Evidence in Delphi Murders of Two Teen Girls

 

[ilovechili]

Thanks ilovechili, I would love to see this, turning on HLN now. If it comes on again I will hit record and do a transcription.

Thanks, I would love to see the transcription, appreciate all that you do. I had a moment that I thought it may have been a repeat that I just had not seen but it seemed to be a fresh interview, I have skipped a few pages here to catch up, have been trying to find time to do so for days, so was not sure if it was new and posted about or not.

It was a bit different and they mentioned it being a month since the PC. And there was a question or two. Evil seemed to be the emphasis to me, more than once, and again, the arson "unsolved" as well he brought up as evil, but I would like to see it again/read it because I did not expect it to come on, had no forewarning to know it was coming on.

I found it interesting too that he is continuing the media presence, fairly regularly, I was just starting to wonder if we would see anything more...

 

[ilovechili]

Interesting. A fleeting thought had crossed by mind.....how do families of other victims of lesser highlighted unsolved homicides in Indiana feel about the Superintendent of ISP taking a personal involvement by making it seem he’s fixated on solving just this one case.

The mother of the 4 sisters who lost their lives in the Flora fire had earlier criticized LE for their lack of focus and attention in attempting to solve it.

Maybe that was one of the reasons he brought it up, I am unsure. I thought maybe it was drawing a parallel but he also made it clear both were unsolved and he was on them if I caught it correctly.

I won't swear to that though until I watch it again

 

[Jerrod]

There are frequently comments along the lines of "other murders happen" that I see when scrolling local news articles. It does make some people angry that there is a big focus on this case and not on others and particularly in relation to the Flora case people get very riled up.

Yes, Carter has been ripped for the Flora arson fire deaths. (To his credit, he has admitted the case was mishandled in the beginning, and that he’s frustrated at the lack of progress.) Interestingly, he’s told the Flora community some of the identical things he’s said in Delphi:

“I'd give my life to find out who killed those [4] little girls.”
“One day I hope we can tell you what we know.”
“[The arson deaths and the girls' names] are the last thing I think of at the end of the day.”
“Everyone’s a suspect, until they’re not.”

ISP: There is no cover-up in Flora investigation

 

[TL4S]

Yes, Carter has been ripped for the Flora arson fire deaths. (To his credit, he has admitted that it was mishandled in the beginning, and that he’s frustrated at the lack of progress.) Interestingly, he’s told the Flora community some of the identical things he’s said in Delphi:

“I'd give my life to find out who killed those [4] little girls.”
“One day I hope we can tell you what we know.”
“[The arson murders and the girls' names] are the last thing I think of at the end of the day.”
“Everyone’s a suspect, until they’re not.”

ISP: There is no cover-up in Flora investigation

I do believe Carter's PCs and interviews are scripted and purposefully worded, but I don't think they are cryptic. There's probably a standard language, plus a bit of Carter's personality sprinkled in.

At the end of the day, what is LE really supposed to say to appease a public who wants answers to impossible questions? There is evilness in this world, plain and simple. It's fear and frustration that makes us ask these questions. Like maybe if we understand the crimes better, we can prevent them from happening to us. JMO

 

[Hatfield]

And regardless of how long the audio was that the family listened to, there’s no source that indicates they were allowed to hear the entire length of audio recovered by LE.

“More” is not “all”.

“State police say more audio from Libby German's cell phone was played for the victims' families, including a mention of a man they noticed behind them.”
Police: Delphi murder victims spoke of man behind them in audio played for family

And there could be valuable clues from the extra audio we have not heard.

Because we may be able to tell the girls reaction to seeing the man and whether they felt they definitely did not know him at all or not.

Especially if they saw him long before the video starts. Maybe they saw him well before the video and maybe they kept talking about him to the point where he started gaining ground on them and they finally pulled out a phone to video him because it got creepier and creepier.

We know there is more we have not heard because it says so in the attached article. Hearing everything from the girls and how they reacted to the first sighting of BG and anything after that may give a valuable clue to someone.
It may even provide a clue as to where the BG was hiding before he popped up onto the bridge.

All I know for sure is I would want to release as much as possible to the public if I was LE and have not been able to identify the BG. If they need help identifying the BG then by golly give the public everything possible to let the public help. Sometimes others will pickup a clue that is not obvious to LE.

"State police say more audio from Libby German's cell phone was played for the victims' families, including a mention of a man they noticed behind them.Police say the girls mostly talk about "stuff girls talk about" in the recording, but they also mention the man."

Police: Delphi murder victims spoke of man behind them in audio played for family

 

[susiQ]

And there could be valuable clues from the extra audio we have not heard.

Because we may be able to tell the girls reaction to seeing the man and whether they felt they definitely did not know him at all or not.

Especially if they saw him long before the video starts. Maybe they saw him well before the video and maybe they kept talking about him to the point where he started gaining ground on them and they finally pulled out a phone to video him because it got creepier and creepier.

We know there is more we have not heard because it says so in the attached article. Hearing everything from the girls and how they reacted to the first sighting of BG and anything after that may give a valuable clue to someone.
It may even provide a clue as to where the BG was hiding before he popped up onto the bridge.

All I know for sure is I would want to release as much as possible to the public if I was LE and have not been able to identify the BG. If they need help identifying the BG then by golly give the public everything possible to let the public help. Sometimes others will pickup a clue that is not obvious to LE.

"State police say more audio from Libby German's cell phone was played for the victims' families, including a mention of a man they noticed behind them.Police say the girls mostly talk about "stuff girls talk about" in the recording, but they also mention the man."

Police: Delphi murder victims spoke of man behind them in audio played for family

I believe they have probably released everything they can without jeopardizing the investigation. Sadly, I've had an about face and don't feel they have all that much. I don't think Abby and Libby recognized their killer, as LE would probably be able to ascertain that from what audio they have and that would have narrowed the suspect considerations down a bit. From their owns words, "everyone is a suspect" (save of course women & old men with canes).

 

[dub]

Or dog! Not so far fetched.

As far as I'm concerned, dog DNA would be an entirely different matter. I'm almost 100% sure I've heard of cases where dog DNA helped with a conviction.

There is no way, on the other hand, that BG had a goat in his jacket.

 

[onabus]

HLN just aired another snippet of their interview with Carter, but it doesn't seem to be the same content that someone else reported earlier.

"Reporter: And is it on your mind as superintendent, as I'm sure it is often in terms of what those girls went through, at the press conference you said 'The way that you left them is not the way they are today.'

Carter: I meant every single word of that. The way the murderer left those two little girls in the woods is not who they are today. And that selfishly brings me some peace. But this isn't about me. This is about first and foremost Abby and Libby, then their families, then the community, then all of those around the nation who are participating with us, then the people dressed like me doing this work from multiple agencies. I couldn't be more proud of them, but it's very, very sad. You see, we're people too, we're human beings, just like your viewers across this nation, and what we see we can't unsee. And I think that's important to keep in the forefront of our minds. And as the leader of the state police in Indiana, I worry about the people that I am so very fortunate to represent every single day, because I know what they see they can't unsee and they're human beings. So this is very important, it's very personal to me."

 

[BigTexas]

I am starting to question whether the case being so personal for Carter is good or bad for the investigation.

 

[MassGuy]

I am starting to question whether the case being so personal for Carter is good or bad for the investigation.

I don’t think it really matters much. Unless it affects his decision making, I don’t see it being an issue.

It’s not like he’s the one doing the investigating, and it’s hard not to be emotionally impacted by a crime like this.

 

[BNA]

And it’s likely Abby was familiar with the bridge as well.

Abigail Williams & Liberty German: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com
“The bridge where the girls were hiking is known as a popular spot in the Delphi area. It appears to have been an area where the girls had been before.

Abigail’s mom, Anna Williams, has a photo of the bridge as her Facebook cover photo. That photo was already in place before her daughter went missing.

Another photo on her Facebook page shows Abigail fishing in the creek with the bridge in the background.”

I did not know about the mother's photos. Thanks

Yeah, the other day I saw an article where Abby's mom said they spent the first or second anniversary visiting all of Abby's favorite fishing places.

Since we have no idea what the rest of the recording said. Could it turn out to be a variation of something like this?:

"Guyz….down the hill….I will show you where I caught a big one."

 

[Hatfield]

HLN just aired another snippet of their interview with Carter, but it doesn't seem to be the same content that someone else reported earlier.

"Reporter: And is it on your mind as superintendent, as I'm sure it is often in terms of what those girls went through, at the press conference you said 'The way that you left them is not the way they are today.'

Carter: I meant every single word of that. The way the murderer left those two little girls in the woods is not who they are today. And that selfishly brings me some peace. But this isn't about me. This is about first and foremost Abby and Libby, then their families, then the community, then all of those around the nation who are participating with us, then the people dressed like me doing this work from multiple agencies. I couldn't be more proud of them, but it's very, very sad. You see, we're people too, we're human beings, just like your viewers across this nation, and what we see we can't unsee. And I think that's important to keep in the forefront of our minds. And as the leader of the state police in Indiana, I worry about the people that I am so very fortunate to represent every single day, because I know what they see they can't unsee and they're human beings. So this is very important, it's very personal to me."

If I take a guess and read between the lines from what he is saying then my guess is there is something unusual or a little bit different in how the girls were left by BG.

Seeing two dead bodies is horrific enough but for him to point out about not being able to unsee things then it kind of points to something was different about it and it had a big impact on the people that were there when the girls were discovered.

Whether that was BG posing them in a certain manner or just the sheer damage and destruction that he caused to their bodies in his act of killing them. Not sure what he is referring to but IMO I think it was something unusual as compared to what one would consider a "standard" murder (if there is such a thing).

I know this case must be really difficult one for LE and I know they are doing their best but one thing that has bothered me is when LE causes confusion by not being clear in the few times they do address the public and media.
This is an example because its not clear what he is meaning. Is it just that he is concerned about his people seeing dead bodies or is it something else that was unique about the crime scene and if so, and if he cannot say more, then he probably should not have said anything at all. Because now we have confusion about what he was really meaning.

Same with the 2nd sketch news. Talk about confusion. IMO they needed to be much clearer on the background of both sketches and why they have now chosen the 2nd sketch over the 1st and to at least give us some general background on why we are also supposed to just concentrate on sketch #2 and throw away sketch #1.

They could have just explained their reasoning better to get us on board with them. They could have done that in a general way that does not hurt the case in any way.

Oh well. It is what it is and BG is still not arrested.

 

[flashy09]

Sorry if this a bit random and also if already been discussed. Just was talking this case over with a sleuthing IRL friend!

Libby took classes at Purdue. I have read they were science classes, but that she was also interested in crime scene investigation and forensics. Did she take any classes pertaining to that? Perhaps another student was also *interested* in crime/forensics for different reasons.

Even if she did take just general science classes - I wonder if LE has taken a look at the class list and done any investigating of the students who were in her class? I would assume it was a 101 type class - so mostly freshman and sophomores. Some of those intro classes are huge so someone could have noticed/stalked her without her noticing back. Do we know if she was taking classes that semester? Maybe he overheard her making a plan on the phone or telling another student what she was doing on the day off?

A poster made a comment right after the new sketch came out that said "looks like an arrogant frat boy" and it has stuck with me. With the new age range and sketch I think looking into Purdue and other local colleges is important. College doesn't have such structured 8-3 classes, allowing for an afternoon off and other kids don't keep track of each other's whereabouts quite like parents/wives/coworkers do. Plus coming home to a frat house or dorm room instead of parents/family might be easier to have a change in behavior go unnoticed.

 

[BNA]

I did not know about the mother's photos. Thanks

Yeah, the other day I saw and article where Abby's mom said they spent the first or second anniversary visiting all of Abby's favorite fishing places.

Since we have no idea what the rest of the recording said. Could it turn out to be a variation of something like this?:

"Guyz….down the hill….I will show you where I caught a big one."

Also, was the photo taken of the Abby fishing anywhere near where the bodies were found?

 

[onabus]

Looks like HLN aired another snippet (the one that others referenced in earlier messages). Will transcribe and update this post.

Edit:

"Reporter: If you can speak to the person who did this, if they're watching, what would you say?

Carter: Why? ... Why? See this is--- Carrol County, specifically Delphi, is-- that represented evil, complete evil amongst humanity. And that little county has been dealt several blows. Just a few months before that, there were four little girls killed in a house fire that was intentionally set. So, that's any county in America. And I have this extraordinary responsibility to bring closure to that and I'll work toward that end until my final day.

[video transitions]

Reporter: And do you think this person may strike again? Is there any fear in the community or do think this was an isolated incident or do you know that much?

Carter: I don't. It requires a subjective opinion. Based on what I think, again-- what I think, not necessarily what I know-- but I think if we were speaking in very broad terms, a person wouldn't do this, just one individual, just one time. So if they haven't before they likely will again."

 

[kc1023]

Looks like HLN aired another snippet (the one that others referenced in earlier messages). Will transcribe and update this post.

This past month since the Easter PC has sure has had a lot of appearances by Doug Carter where previously I feel like we didn't see much of that. He's showing up once a week now on a news program since that April PC. What do we make of this? Anything?

 

[scarletstar]

Sorry if this a bit random and also if already been discussed. Just was talking this case over with a sleuthing IRL friend!

Libby took classes at Purdue. I have read they were science classes, but that she was also interested in crime scene investigation and forensics. Did she take any classes pertaining to that? Perhaps another student was also *interested* in crime/forensics for different reasons.

Even if she did take just general science classes - I wonder if LE has taken a look at the class list and done any investigating of the students who were in her class? I would assume it was a 101 type class - so mostly freshman and sophomores. Some of those intro classes are huge so someone could have noticed/stalked her without her noticing back. snip .

I totally agree. based on what they know, they should be looking at yearbooks, sports photos from the local colleges. I actually looked around a bit online with what I could find. I had a person in mind after the PC but my person in no way looks anything like the sketch...so I got nothing. If they truly believe this person lives in Delphi, went to school there, works there...why is this so hard?

 

[Hatfield]

Sorry if this a bit random and also if already been discussed. Just was talking this case over with a sleuthing IRL friend!

Libby took classes at Purdue. I have read they were science classes, but that she was also interested in crime scene investigation and forensics. Did she take any classes pertaining to that? Perhaps another student was also *interested* in crime/forensics for different reasons.

Even if she did take just general science classes - I wonder if LE has taken a look at the class list and done any investigating of the students who were in her class? I would assume it was a 101 type class - so mostly freshman and sophomores. Some of those intro classes are huge so someone could have noticed/stalked her without her noticing back. Do we know if she was taking classes that semester? Maybe he overheard her making a plan on the phone or telling another student what she was doing on the day off?

A poster made a comment right after the new sketch came out that said "looks like an arrogant frat boy" and it has stuck with me. With the new age range and sketch I think looking into Purdue and other local colleges is important. College doesn't have such structured 8-3 classes, allowing for an afternoon off and other kids don't keep track of each other's whereabouts quite like parents/wives/coworkers do. Plus coming home to a frat house or dorm room instead of parents/family might be easier to have a change in behavior go unnoticed.

Great suggestion.

It would not be too difficult for LE to identify if she was actively taking any classes. The hard part would be for LE to try to get photos of every person taking the same class but I agree it would be well worth the effort.

Somehow BG ended up on the same bridge as the girls that day. Its still a question whether it was a random encounter by him or if he somehow knew in advance that they would be there.