IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #35

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JR and LS were close friends. I find it hard to believe that he would help the guys at 5N in a cover up if something bad happened to her at that appartment. Apparently, when LS and CR arrived at 5N, CR was sick, and had to be tucked into bed by MB who was sober and working on his studies. As any samaritan would do, he turned LS over to JR. After being at JR's for about an hour, I think LS probably felt stable enough to walk back to her appartment.

I do agree that it would have been nice for JR to escort her, but hindsight is also 20/20. JR reported last seeing LS walking south on College street, which is where she could have been abducted by Danial Messel.

I think I remember way back then that there was a report of a security guard seen in that area. I do think it could of been Messel wearing his campus security sweatshirt.
 
Under a microscope? From what is public, there were guests @ JR's who left and were not investigated. Did they take forensic samples at JR's? Her DNA would have been there from earlier that evening and dna from countless others.
It was the end of term, the next morning cars left and never returned. Her body may have never made it back to 5N. Even if it did, I dont think she left alive. The inconsistencies are lies, and why lie? JR got the most powerful lawyer in the state and left town. I agree with you that the issue is a lack of certain physical evidence. Yet its clear to me the 5N guys are liars. LE/FBI has evidence, and they likely know what happened. Yes, sir, proving it in a court of law and arguing against the best lawyer money can buy is another story.

BBM:

Agreed, VeryVeri. 5N & Co.'s stories are totally implausible.

One of the biggest barriers to LE successfully solving this case and/or a DA succesfully prosecuting it is that there's too much money everywhere you turn.

Everybody's family has money. Lots and lots of money.

The other problematic element is DM raising the specter of reasonable doubt in a jury's mind.

It's hard to see how this mystery gets solved, short of someone growing a conscience, which ain't likely.

All of the above: JMO.
 
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BBM:

Agreed, VeryVeri. 5N & Co.'s stories are totally implausible.

One of the biggest barriers to LE successfully solving this case and/or a DA succesfully prosecuting it is that there's too much money everywhere you turn.

Everybody's family has money. Lots and lots of money.

The other problematic element is DM raising the specter of reasonable doubt in a jury's mind.

It's hard to see how this mystery gets solved, short of someone growing a conscience, which ain't likely.

All of the above: JMO.
Yeah, I’ve long thought the 5N & co were responsible for her disappearance, not necessarily her death. And agreed, growing a conscience among this group won’t happen. It’s not their problem. They aren’t going to mess up their lives anymore than what’s already been done. It may eat at one of them more than the others but not enough to come forth with information. MOO
 
Seems to me that her friends are ultimately responsible - whether by specific action or by negligence. Until one of them develops enough of a conscience to defy their high-powered lawyers, the Spierer family is not likely to learn the ultimate fated of their daughter.

My $0.02,
- John
 
Hey friends. It's been a while.

Just logging in because I just finished listening to a podcast -- Season one of "In the Dark" about the Jacob Wetterling case -- a kid who was abducted and murdered in 1989 and whose case wasn't solved for 27 years. The podcast came out a few years ago, I think, but I just came across it. Has anyone else listened to it? It made me think so much of Lauren and this case. The podcast is basically a critical analysis of the investigation and all of the mistakes that were made along the way. There are some very similar themes, I think. Among them: The case blew up at a national level, with lots of attention to Jacob's disappearance, but ultimately this generated a million useless leads while basic steps in the local investigation, like interviewing neighbors, were not completed -- As in Lauren's case, while her case received international attention, so much attention was focused on social media and obscure leads and tips while it seems that basic steps in the police investigation, like interviewing potential witnesses in the area, collecting video footage or searching residences either didn't happen or happened too late; The huge amount of publicity also meant that the family had to filter through and respond to tips, psychics, horrible messages, etc. via a 'tip phone' installed in their house (this was pre-internet, of course. In Lauren's case, this was multiplied by Facebook, Twitter, blogs, sites like this, etc.) and the parents talk about how difficult this was -- to have to answer every difficult call and think about every horrifying lead, though they were all, in the end, useless; The effect of having people designated POI who are never charged or cleared, because the police keep the file closed; and above all, the story of a sexual predator on the loose who, despite multiple witnesses and tips ended up committing numerous horrible crimes when he could have been stopped much earlier if the investigation had followed up on some obvious tips.

For me, this brings up nagging questions about Lauren's case, unanswered questions about what was true and not about the information LE released to the public, and above all when and how much LE knew about Daniel Messel before Lauren went missing, before other attacks, and before Hannah Wilson was killed.

Still hoping for answers for Lauren and her family.
 
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These are college kids, not criminals, imo.
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Many a college kid have found themselves in situations where very bad decisions were made. They didn't start out as criminals, but the participation combined with the hiding of knowledge separates them from an innocent bystander. You don't have attorneys protecting you for 7 years unless you are afraid of something. IMO...
 
Followed this case since the beginning. Even visited the area several years ago. Almost 8 years later and nothing. Her remains have not been found by a farmer, a hunter, a fisherman/woman. Not by a jogger, not by working crews on roads etc. Not inside vacant home. Nothing... Perhaps she was not simply taken somewhere killed and then simply discarded along a road or campsite. But a predetermined location. Perhaps someone was hunting the college campus that night/early morning looking for an easy victim. And taken to a predetermine place with much privacy. Someone with knowledge of the area. Not someone whom would have taken her across state lines. Even at that early morning/late night traveling with abducted girl is risky business. Probably outside the campus in the countryside as we call it. Many farm areas have built underground shelters for many reasons including escape from tornadoes etc. One could have remodel a shelter such as this and installed a new wall in front of the old one and hid the body between the two to never be discovered for a very long time if ever...........Neighbors in country settings sometimes know each other for decades from just knowing the families whom live out there, even if they dont communicate much with each other..........If any one out there, knows of someone whom did some work on a underground shelter before and after the disappearance. A lot of cement, building cement blocks etc they should come forward. To narrow it down further, property where only one lived alone. Isolated and perhaps seemed eccentric in nature. A loner type with a farm house.

THE ABOVE IS NOTHING MORE THAN MOO AND SPECULATION. THINKING WAYYYYYYYYYYY OUTSIDE THE BOX AFTER ALMOST 8 YEARS.
 
Followed this case since the beginning. Even visited the area several years ago. Almost 8 years later and nothing. Her remains have not been found by a farmer, a hunter, a fisherman/woman. Not by a jogger, not by working crews on roads etc. Not inside vacant home. Nothing... Perhaps she was not simply taken somewhere killed and then simply discarded along a road or campsite. But a predetermined location. Perhaps someone was hunting the college campus that night/early morning looking for an easy victim. And taken to a predetermine place with much privacy. Someone with knowledge of the area. Not someone whom would have taken her across state lines. Even at that early morning/late night traveling with abducted girl is risky business. Probably outside the campus in the countryside as we call it. Many farm areas have built underground shelters for many reasons including escape from tornadoes etc. One could have remodel a shelter such as this and installed a new wall in front of the old one and hid the body between the two to never be discovered for a very long time if ever...........Neighbors in country settings sometimes know each other for decades from just knowing the families whom live out there, even if they dont communicate much with each other..........If any one out there, knows of someone whom did some work on a underground shelter before and after the disappearance. A lot of cement, building cement blocks etc they should come forward. To narrow it down further, property where only one lived alone. Isolated and perhaps seemed eccentric in nature. A loner type with a farm house.

THE ABOVE IS NOTHING MORE THAN MOO AND SPECULATION. THINKING WAYYYYYYYYYYY OUTSIDE THE BOX AFTER ALMOST 8 YEARS.
Look up Richard York's thread here on websleuths. He was doing meth at his best friend's house and died. The BF buried him under his shed, as all would besties would do (sarcastic), because he didn't want LE tearing up his house. He hides it for over a year and is only found out because he asked another guy to help him move the body. Look up Tara Grinstead. One guy kills her and his BF helps hide the body....missing for 15 years. They are only found out because the BF told his girlfriend. My point is that this doesn't have to be complex involving strangers.
 
I can’t believe Lauren’s been gone for 8 years and we are still where we started. I should believe it, because it’s true of more Websleuths cases than not. Seems like there are so many killers out there who get remarkably lucky.
 
I think it's important to consider the primal urges of a bunch of drunk college goons. All these guys involved -- not one of them is going to prioritize getting Spierer back to safety. That's at the bottom of the list. Drunk college guys only want to do one thing, and anyone with any sense knows what that is. Every guy hanging around Spierer that night was trying/hoping to have sex with her. What's the easiest way to do that? Get her more drunk/intoxicated, of course. Keep the party going. I think it's pretty clear what happened. She died as a result of drugs/overdose, the guy(s) panicked, and dumped her body in the river/buried it. The stranger abduction theory is too unlikely. Yeah, it does happen. But it's like getting struck by lightning. One (or several) of these guys got turned on by her, tried to get her more inebriated, and she died. Wouldn't surprise me if one of them was having sex with her when she died; that's even more of a reason to panic. The suspect is going to be viewed as a date-rapist and a drug dealer, if not an all-out murderer, and he's not going to want that, not when he's just getting started and not even in his prime. So he calls two people before realizing he needs to take care of it himself. Then gets a lawyer immediately to protect himself.

The police need to be focusing on this last guy to see her -- Jay. He knows what happened.
 
I think it's important to consider the primal urges of a bunch of drunk college goons. All these guys involved -- not one of them is going to prioritize getting Spierer back to safety. That's at the bottom of the list. Drunk college guys only want to do one thing, and anyone with any sense knows what that is. Every guy hanging around Spierer that night was trying/hoping to have sex with her. What's the easiest way to do that? Get her more drunk/intoxicated, of course. Keep the party going. I think it's pretty clear what happened. She died as a result of drugs/overdose, the guy(s) panicked, and dumped her body in the river/buried it. The stranger abduction theory is too unlikely. Yeah, it does happen. But it's like getting struck by lightning. One (or several) of these guys got turned on by her, tried to get her more inebriated, and she died. Wouldn't surprise me if one of them was having sex with her when she died; that's even more of a reason to panic. The suspect is going to be viewed as a date-rapist and a drug dealer, if not an all-out murderer, and he's not going to want that, not when he's just getting started and not even in his prime. So he calls two people before realizing he needs to take care of it himself. Then gets a lawyer immediately to protect himself.

The police need to be focusing on this last guy to see her -- Jay. He knows what happened.
This is most likely what happened, or a few of the guys were with her while she was passed out and knew they would all be in trouble if they were found out. I think the only reason why others would keep quiet is if they were implicated in some way. So, either one person raped her while she was drugged and covered her OD up and told nobody, or a few were knowingly implicated in gang raping and chose to all agree to tell nobody else. If rape wasn't a factor, I don't know why they wouldn't have called 911 and reported that she died. They could claim that they didn't know where she got her drugs and they were just trying to help. If they were worried about being turned in for being on drugs, they could have slept it off and claimed they noticed her condition in the morning. There had to be something on her body that implicated one or more of them. MOO On the other hand, in the condition she was said to be in she would have been very vulnerable walking back to her apartment alone. I keep hoping and praying they find evidence that solves the case and brings the man(men) responsible to justice.
 
Yes, if they were raping her while she was unconscious (I think this is likely, and a typical desire/behavior of a certain type of college boy loser), that changes the game considerably. She dies while sitting there, no big deal. They can all deny knowing where she got her drugs. But if one or more of them suddenly has DNA all over her, they're going to react completely different. No young college boy is going to want to register as a sex offender, or go to prison on rape charges. I just can't seem to isolate which guy did it. I think if it was more than one, someone would've cracked by now. But then again, maybe not. At this point, I still think I'm going with CR. If he didn't kill her/rape her, he knows what happened to her. If he was seen with her AFTER someone punched him (not sure if this has been established clearly), he's very determined to have sex with her, and was probably waiting for her. Some guys (especially when drunk or intoxicated) become obsessed with having sex with a girl, especially if they feel led on or that the girl in question likes them in some way.

Either way, this is such a disturbing case. Wish some evidence would arise.
 
Yes, if they were raping her while she was unconscious (I think this is likely, and a typical desire/behavior of a certain type of college boy loser), that changes the game considerably. She dies while sitting there, no big deal. They can all deny knowing where she got her drugs. But if one or more of them suddenly has DNA all over her, they're going to react completely different. No young college boy is going to want to register as a sex offender, or go to prison on rape charges. I just can't seem to isolate which guy did it. I think if it was more than one, someone would've cracked by now. But then again, maybe not. At this point, I still think I'm going with CR. If he didn't kill her/rape her, he knows what happened to her. If he was seen with her AFTER someone punched him (not sure if this has been established clearly), he's very determined to have sex with her, and was probably waiting for her. Some guys (especially when drunk or intoxicated) become obsessed with having sex with a girl, especially if they feel led on or that the girl in question likes them in some way.

Either way, this is such a disturbing case. Wish some evidence would arise.
I had a similar train of thought recently. The three things that keep bringing me back to the idea that it was one of the boys end up being 1) The simplest conclusion is usually the most accurate one; they're the last people who were in contact with her, while there is video evidence of her entering Kilroys, exiting with CR, going to Smallwood with CR, exiting with CR, hitting her head several times, entering the alley between College and Morton and exiting both with CR, there is, according to the 7th Circuit, no video evidence of her entering the Apartments on 11th and College or exiting them (and they refuse to release the videos beyond the two stills). 2) According to FindLaw's United States Seventh Circuit case and opinions. ; the boys lawyers requested and obtained a motion to "limit discovery to the issue of proximate cause, that is, to address only evidence related to whether the defendants' actions caused severe injury or death to Lauren." I understand utilizing the fact that to prove negligence; one must prove injury and, without a body, injury cannot be proven, that's just good legalwork, but limiting their discovery to essentially nothing suggests, at least to me, that there is something in the discovery the Spierer's / Spierer's lawyers would have received that the boys did not want getting beyond police custody, which has been abnormally committed to keeping details of the case/surveillance/etc away from the public. 3) In an article here: Friend: Missing Ind. student's parents harassing him CR states, in response to being asked about the punch he received from ZO nullifying his memories of the night "I never said that," CR said. "You're taking statements that were said by my lawyer. I never said I did or didn't." Does that mean that his lawyer is misrepresenting him or that he was instructed to testify something he now doesn't want to commit to?

To respond to if CR was seen with her after he was punched by ZO, according to LE there is video surveillance of the both of them exiting Smallwood Apts, entering the Alley on 11th and College, and exiting it as well, at one point CR begins fireman carrying her.

I also find it strange how little mention of DB appears in most accounts where, in several, the initial party (at JR's Apartment) was to celebrate his return to town. If he was still in the apartment at the end of that night, it appears that the group did not want that widely known.

Finally; in regards to the idea that they wouldn't bother to hide the body if she had simply overdosed, it would be possible for either or all of them to be indicted with anything from negligence (which the Spierer's attempted for despite the lack of a body) to manslaughter if they provided the drugs, etc.
 
Finally; in regards to the idea that they wouldn't bother to hide the body if she had simply overdosed, it would be possible for either or all of them to be indicted with anything from negligence (which the Spierer's attempted for despite the lack of a body) to manslaughter if they provided the drugs, etc.

In 2011 Indiana's Lifeline Law was heavily advertised on campus after the high profile deaths of several students during welcome week in 2010 (kids getting alcohol poisoning at parties and other kids being too scared to call the cops because they didn't want to get tickets for underage drinking). It was in every campus bathroom, posted at every coffee shop and deli, etc. All these boys would have known about the lifeline law and it makes it less likely they would have avoided calling the police if she was in the process of overdosing.

Source: was a student when Lauren went missing.
 
Wouldn't matter. All these kids had promising careers ahead of them and wealthy/affluent parents. They most likely didn't give it a 2nd thought about the lifeline law.

Most likely thought it would be easier to just dump the body.
 
Wouldn't matter. All these kids had promising careers ahead of them and wealthy/affluent parents. They most likely didn't give it a 2nd thought about the lifeline law.

Most likely thought it would be easier to just dump the body.

I agree with this; they didn’t want to be associated in any way with this issue. But they are, anyway, I think, if someone googles them. They likely had positions ready for them when they graduated, because of social contacts, where it didn’t matter if they were associated with Lauren’s disappearance. Sometimes, life is unfair.
 
WVLT Facebook page has interesting comments.
“A gruesome discovery was made in Indianapolis Monday.

Police said human remains were found in a suitcase in a creek.

People walking by spotted the suitcase Monday afternoon. They opened it, found the remains and alerted police.”

WVLT
 
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