Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #11

[Lexiintoronto]

But those missing items would not be available in the home for assessment. They would have to have photos and receipts, which does not require a home visit to see items which are not there.

I’m thinking of priceless paintings or other valuables that need professional assessments of the current market value.

Waddingtons may have said ‘ here’s what we would have paid for the stolen items.’

Insurance adjusters meet at the place of loss.

A Waddington truck was there apparently, so they may just have been removing items.

 

[deugirtni]

The Shermans were a wealthy couple, but perhaps more importantly, they were a powerful couple.
Money does equal power of course, but thinking while there are many affluent couples, few have the same power and perceived influence wielded by the Shermans. imo, speculation.

The couple, although they are massively wealthy, are still not at the top of the list as far as wealth, and I don't know about the perceived power or philanthropic efforts of the ones who are wealthier, but.. if killing because they wanted money somehow - they could've chosen a different couple, why this one, and why such a grotesque manner? Seems perhaps some mental illness on some kind of level may have been involved, combined with maybe some years-long grudges, or combined with new grudges as well.. or.. have those close to the victims ever been said to have been cleared by police? I have not heard any indication of that. Don't police usually make some kind of a statement to that effect when it is known?

 

[MistyWaters]

The couple, although they are massively wealthy, are still not at the top of the list as far as wealth, and I don't know about the perceived power or philanthropic efforts of the ones who are wealthier, but.. if killing because they wanted money somehow - they could've chosen a different couple, why this one, and why such a grotesque manner? Seems perhaps some mental illness on some kind of level may have been involved, combined with maybe some years-long grudges, or combined with new grudges as well.. or.. have those close to the victims ever been said to have been cleared by police? I have not heard any indication of that. Don't police usually make some kind of a statement to that effect when it is known?

Here in Canada I don’t recall even one unsolved case where police make statements about clearing anybody, other than times when they publicly sought out a person of interest.

Maybe there’s a reason for that - by announcing people close to the victims are “cleared”, it insinuates they had been considered a suspect.

 

[deugirtni]

Here in Canada I don’t recall even one unsolved case where police make statements about clearing anybody, other than times when they publicly sought out a person of interest.

Maybe there’s a reason for that - by announcing people close to the victims are “cleared”, it insinuates they had been considered a suspect.

Guess I'm thinking about the Dundas ON fire case, where LE said the fam had been cleared except for one, and that they were all however, being cooperative. Also thinking about an Oz case (of missing person though), where those closest were said by LE to have been cleared right off the bat, practically. I will have to think of other cases (CA) that I've followed.

 

[deugirtni]

Here in Canada I don’t recall even one unsolved case where police make statements about clearing anybody, other than times when they publicly sought out a person of interest.

Maybe there’s a reason for that - by announcing people close to the victims are “cleared”, it insinuates they had been considered a suspect.

Also, not necessarily, since it is generally widely known that first to be suspected are those closest.

 

[MistyWaters]

Guess I'm thinking about the Dundas ON fire case, where LE said the fam had been cleared except for one, and that they were all however, being cooperative. Also thinking about an Oz case (of missing person though), where those closest were said by LE to have been cleared right off the bat, practically. I will have to think of other cases (CA) that I've followed.

There’s also this statement below. Considering the children publicly blasted police sources and the media for running with m/s rumours and urged TPS to conduct a “thorough, intensive and objective criminal investigation” I think it’d come off as weirdly amateurish for TPS to later announce the children were cleared.

“TORONTO, Dec. 16, 2017 /CNW/ - Our parents shared an enthusiasm for life and commitment to their family and community totally inconsistent with the rumors regrettably circulated in the media as to the circumstances surrounding their deaths.

We are shocked and think it's irresponsible that police sources have reportedly advised the media of a theory which neither their family, their friends nor their colleagues believe to be true.

We urge the Toronto Police Service to conduct a thorough, intensive and objective criminal investigation, and urge the media to refrain from further reporting as to the cause of these tragic deaths until the investigation is completed.”
Statement from the Family of Barry and Honey Sherman

 

[Tighthead]

Here in Canada I don’t recall even one unsolved case where police make statements about clearing anybody, other than times when they publicly sought out a person of interest.

Maybe there’s a reason for that - by announcing people close to the victims are “cleared”, it insinuates they had been considered a suspect.

There was a fatal hit and run case years ago in Vancouver where the VPD issued a statement that Canuck Dan Cloutier was not a suspect and his car was not involved.

I also recall at least one case where a spouse has been cleared.

 

[JDG]

I really wish there'd be a break in the case, any kind of break in the case. ho hum

 

[Sphinx]

I'm a person that believes in statistics. You will always be able to find instances of oddball crimes, but quite frankly those are one in a million occurrences. When you have a crime like this the odds are 99.9% that the motive involved one of three things, sex, drugs or money. You can argue that it may have been a personal vendetta, but that would likely have been the result of one of those three things. My gut also tells me that sex and drugs have nothing to do with this case, so I'd be very comfortable betting this was about money. I also believe that there had to be some sort of monetary benefit to whoever did this. For instance, Barry was not known for writing contracts. He would front money to people on a handshake. If one of these partners killed Barry, the handshake agreement would die with him.

I agree with your idea about timing, albeit for different reasons. It had been all over the news about Barry's recent court victory over the cousins, and his further lawsuit that would see them pay Barry's legal expenses. I believe the timing may have simply been designed to immediately throw shade at the cousins, especially the outspoken Kerry Winter.

The Sherman children seem to be very afraid of further violence towards them, or their families. This is one reason they gave for not wanting the terms of the will, or wills revealed to the public. The Judge at one point said he thought there might be a real threat of danger, and agreed to seal certain documents. I think that was Barry's will, and maybe Honey's if they did find one.

I agree with you that money is very likely a big part of the motive for murder somehow, but it may be indirect, in that the Shermans did have a great deal of power. Maybe they were somehow using that power politically, like fund-raising for politicians or organizations, in a way that threatened the interests of other wealthy people, or even governments and business interests in other countries. I think the " rabbit hole " goes deep in this case, and very powerful people sent a message with the horrendous manner of death in the Sherman's own home, where they felt safe, then the grotesque display of the bodies. In my opinion, the Sherman children got that message, whatever it meant, and that is one reason they are afraid. I noticed that shortly after the death of Barry and Honey, Johnathan, the son, said publicly, and I think it was during his eulogy at the funeral, that he and his sisters intended to continue the charity work of their parents. Were the Shermans going to stop giving money to some organizations, or were their humanitarian and fund-raising efforts somehow politically/and/or/financially threatening to powerful groups of people, or individuals ? It is hard to say, but I think the motive is somehow connected to them antagonizing some powerful people or organization, and then refusing to stop what they were doing, after they were warned. Barry was known for being very stubborn, and arrogant. Maybe Honey saw her actions as them being determined to do good, in the face of opposition. The display of the bodies had to be a message of extreme hostility, hate, and a threat to the family, and others, but I do not know what it was, and we may never know.
IMO

 

[Tighthead]

The Sherman children seem to be very afraid of further violence towards them, or their families. This is one reason they gave for not wanting the terms of the will, or wills revealed to the public. The Judge at one point said he thought there might be a real threat of danger, and agreed to seal certain documents. I think that was Barry's will, and maybe Honey's if they did find one.

I agree with you that money is very likely a big part of the motive for murder somehow, but it may be indirect, in that the Shermans did have a great deal of power. Maybe they were somehow using that power politically, like fund-raising for politicians or organizations, in a way that threatened the interests of other wealthy people, or even governments and business interests in other countries. I think the " rabbit hole " goes deep in this case, and very powerful people sent a message with the horrendous manner of death in the Sherman's own home, where they felt safe, then the grotesque display of the bodies. In my opinion, the Sherman children got that message, whatever it meant, and that is one reason they are afraid. I noticed that shortly after the death of Barry and Honey, Johnathan, the son, said publicly, and I think it was during his eulogy at the funeral, that he and his sisters intended to continue the charity work of their parents. Were the Shermans going to stop giving money to some organizations, or were their humanitarian and fund-raising efforts somehow politically/and/or/financially threatening to powerful groups of people, or individuals ? It is hard to say, but I think the motive is somehow connected to them antagonizing some powerful people or organization, and then refusing to stop what they were doing, after they were warned. Barry was known for being very stubborn, and arrogant. Maybe Honey saw her actions as them being determined to do good, in the face of opposition. The display of the bodies had to be a message of extreme hostility, hate, and a threat to the family, and others, but I do not know what it was, and we may never know.
IMO

I think the motion to seal the probate file was about privacy. In the appellate decision overturning the decision, it was noted that only one paragraph of the affidavits addressed the perceived danger to the family. That is pretty flimsy. If such threats and fears were legitimate, one would expect significantly more evidentiary support.

 

[ldlager]

WE don't yet know if B died by hanging on the railing. We only know that 'ligature neck compression' was the COD.. but it has been described previously as being *either* strangulation or hanging.

Sorry, didn’t Greenspan indicate that the second autopsy revealed that the belts were likely not the ligature that caused the deaths, and that anotherligature was used? It has been some time, but I seem to recall that.

 

[ldlager]

But the thing is, they DID steal the truck (regarding the Bosma case). They didn't plan to steal the truck, and then just kill Bosma, but leave the truck. The wanted item was still taken.

Exactly, they set out to steal the truck. Then they decided to commit murder. My point is that the Sherman case could be exactly the same.

 

[ldlager]

How do you know those were “errors” without LE revealing who/what/when or why their investigation led? The entire home wasn’t a crime scene for weeks. Certain areas are cleared as they go along. Police prioritize what they view as significant first and lesser routine matters get attention later.

I can’t see any good reason for LE to waste time immediately determining everyone who admitted being in the home was actually there.

Well, why does one funeral director leave the house with protective shoe coverings, and the other that leaves at the same time doesn’t? They both loaded the same 2 bodies onto gurneys, in the same part of the house, at the same time. You wear them because they are required, or else they aren’t required- which is it?
LE didn’t check the apotex video for weeks, and actually thereby inadvertently risked having the only usable copy erased. How could they know the murderers weren’t on tape following Barry or honey as they drove away from apotex?
C’mon misty, you surely don’t believe that these and other actions by LE aren’t errors? If not, why not just let everyone from apotex and the press waltz into areas of the house that have been “cleared”?

 

[rickcross]

The Sherman children seem to be very afraid of further violence towards them, or their families. This is one reason they gave for not wanting the terms of the will, or wills revealed to the public. The Judge at one point said he thought there might be a real threat of danger, and agreed to seal certain documents. I think that was Barry's will, and maybe Honey's if they did find one.

But does hiding the terms of the will and court proceedings do anything to keep the Sherman children any safer? Certainly not. We know who they are, who they are married to, and that each of them will be about two billion dollars richer. In my opinion the family is behaving very oddly, demolishing the house, demolishing its contents, hiring investigative teams, and sealing court proceedings. Not to mention publicly canning Barry's lifelong business partner at Apotex.

 

[human]

But does hiding the terms of the will and court proceedings do anything to keep the Sherman children any safer? Certainly not. We know who they are, who they are married to, and that each of them will be about two billion dollars richer. In my opinion the family is behaving very oddly, demolishing the house, demolishing its contents, hiring investigative teams, and sealing court proceedings. Not to mention publicly canning Barry's lifelong business partner at Apotex.

I would tear down the house. Who wants to look at the place where the parents died so horribly. They do not need the money.

The lifelong business partner was really old. Time to move on

 

[deugirtni]

Exactly, they set out to steal the truck. Then they decided to commit murder. My point is that the Sherman case could be exactly the same.

But what did the killer(s) steal then (from the Shermans)? Nothing has been said at all about any theft or anything missing. I think we would've heard some little snippets at least, if that were the case.

 

[MistyWaters]

Well, why does one funeral director leave the house with protective shoe coverings, and the other that leaves at the same time doesn’t? They both loaded the same 2 bodies onto gurneys, in the same part of the house, at the same time. You wear them because they are required, or else they aren’t required- which is it?
LE didn’t check the apotex video for weeks, and actually thereby inadvertently risked having the only usable copy erased. How could they know the murderers weren’t on tape following Barry or honey as they drove away from apotex?
C’mon misty, you surely don’t believe that these and other actions by LE aren’t errors? If not, why not just let everyone from apotex and the press waltz into areas of the house that have been “cleared”?

If there had been no crime scene tape put up and dozens of family and friends, associates and coworkers were allowed to freely enter the home to say their final goodbyes, that’d be an error. But crime scene tape was afixed around the home restricting unauthorized access and police officers are trained to follow protocol within a crime scene regardless of what crime is being investigated. As amateur sleuths, I think we have no way of determining if those procedures were being followed or not just by some media photos.

 

[deugirtni]

Well, why does one funeral director leave the house with protective shoe coverings, and the other that leaves at the same time doesn’t? They both loaded the same 2 bodies onto gurneys, in the same part of the house, at the same time. You wear them because they are required, or else they aren’t required- which is it?
LE didn’t check the apotex video for weeks, and actually thereby inadvertently risked having the only usable copy erased. How could they know the murderers weren’t on tape following Barry or honey as they drove away from apotex?
C’mon misty, you surely don’t believe that these and other actions by LE aren’t errors? If not, why not just let everyone from apotex and the press waltz into areas of the house that have been “cleared”?

I wonder if the one person pushing the one gurney had taken off his booties just prior to exiting the house?
I think that more than errors, these things are evidence of tunnel vision, where they seemed to only be considering M/S and discounting anything related to other possibilities, for reasons we don't yet know. But why? Virtually everyone when they heard about this and the visuals presented, was thinking assassination, so why would LE have been stuck on M/S? There has to be a huge reason for that... so then we get back to wondering if there may have been a suicide note, or a 911 call, or a video recorded 'confession', or .... ?????? TPS just *can't* be as incompetent as they seem, just can't be possible.. I mean there seem to be SO many things in this case that make TPS *look* bad, but they aren't in a position to answer to these things, nor to defend themselves yet. If we ever get to hear the details of why, hopefully we will find out they had overwhelming reasons for believing M/S.

 

[deugirtni]

Sorry, didn’t Greenspan indicate that the second autopsy revealed that the belts were likely not the ligature that caused the deaths, and that anotherligature was used? It has been some time, but I seem to recall that.

From my memory, I believe a newspaper reporter stated that the PI team said, after their own autopsy had been performed, that it was death prior to hanging, and by a different type of material than a belt.. but then after that, that part seemed to be dropped and never mentioned again, and possibly even contradicted. I remember being a bit stuck on that, wondering why. I will look at articles later to see if I can find.

 

[MistyWaters]

Exactly, they set out to steal the truck. Then they decided to commit murder. My point is that the Sherman case could be exactly the same.

TB was not a targeted homicide victim with his truck stolen as an opportunity.

Deciding to commit murder to eliminate a witness and preplanning to murder of a specific victim (by targeting) is not synonymous.