TX TX - Huntsville, 'Walker County Jane Doe', WhtFem 14-16, 91UFTX, Nov'80 #2 *NAME NOT RELEASED*

[Liv27]

They will never have a clue how many he really killed.

Is this the most updated article on this story? Confessed serial killer now linked to 60 deaths in 14 states: Report

Yeah, I thought of Sam Little too for this one. He was a trucker who killed in Texas a lot. But...I think most of his victims were African American women.

 

[RookieInvestigator]

I thought Little was transferred permanently to Texas and he gave his confessions because he hated the California prison he's incarcerated at...I think he was looking for the Henry Lee Lucas "rock star" treatment...

I think he did mostly target black women, but there were a few exceptions...I didn't realize he was a truck driver, I only heard about the boxing...He's a good suspect...

If anyone has time here is an article detailing an interview with Sam Little...I don't think he raped his victims and enjoyed watching them suffer...I read it a few weeks ago and it gives you an insight into him...I will warn you in advance that it's long...

SAM LITTLE ARTICLE

 

[Liv27]

I thought Little was transferred permanently to Texas and he gave his confessions because he hated the California prison he's incarcerated at...I think he was looking for the Henry Lee Lucas "rock star" treatment...

I think he did mostly target black women, but there were a few exceptions...I didn't realize he was a truck driver, I only heard about the boxing...He's a good suspect...

If anyone has time here is an article detailing an interview with Sam Little...I don't think he raped his victims and enjoyed watching them suffer...I read it a few weeks ago and it gives you an insight into him...I will warn you in advance that it's long...

SAM LITTLE ARTICLE

I haven’t read anywhere that he raped his victims either. I see where he was arrested for an attempted rape once. Maybe he wasn’t able to even if he wanted to. If he did kill WCJD, maybe that’s why she was raped with objects instead. Murderers do that when they physically can’t do it.

I don’t think Sam Little is a Henry Lee Lucas wannabe. He has over 60 confirmed murders so far out of the 93 he confessed to.

 

[RookieInvestigator]

I haven’t read anywhere that he raped his victims either. I see where he was arrested for an attempted rape once. Maybe he wasn’t able to even if he wanted to. If he did kill WCJD, maybe that’s why she was raped with objects instead. Murderers do that when they physically can’t do it.

I don’t think Sam Little is a Henry Lee Lucas wannabe. He has over 60 confirmed murders so far out of the 93 he confessed to.

I watched a documentary on Henry Lee Lucas a few months ago...They let him stay out of his cell for extended periods, I believe they flew him to California on a private plane, gave him whatever food he wanted, LE from all over was trying to interview him, etc...I think they flew Little to Texas...

I'll post a link to the video if I can find it...It was about Lucas and Toole...

Here's an interesting article about the reporter who proved Lucas lied about most of the murders...

WASHINGTON POST

 

[MadMcGoo]

***SORRY AHEAD OF TIME, I’ve been out of pocket ***

It seems like Ramona would have been too old to be WCJD. If she was born in 1954, she would have been 26 in November 1980. Most woman that age wouldn't be mistaken for a 14-16 year old.

Also, a 26 year old woman telling a waitress that she was 18 would make zero sense.

True that most women wouldn't. ...I don't usually rule anyone out by the estimated age or height/weight anymore. Especially if other identifiers and/or circumstances line up.

...Thats is an interesting point though. I assumed that their estimates were based on the autopsy, but if they were going off of appearance, that changes things.

I can't imagine someone saying they're younger than they are either. Especially when the waitress asked her if her parents knew where she was.

I thought the revised younger age range for WCJD was based on a 2nd forensic examination, and they decided she was so young not based on appearance but by findings during this 2nd examination. Can anyone clarify that for me?

I know that mistakes are made in age estimates though, so I understand why you can't do a blanket rule-out simply based on age (or many other physical identifiers). It just struck me that Ramona seems considerably older than what LE and other authorities seem to believe.

I agree completely!! Ages are very different! However, I don’t know about anyone else, but when I see photos of a “14 year old from the 1970’s” I am amazed at how much older they look than their actual age. But, yes, I think WCJD IS closer to the 14-16 age range, which seems to be a scientifically approximated conclusion! And her saying she was YOUNGER than her actual age is a bit outlandish!

I just couldn’t help but share Romona! If not WCJD, I’m almost certain she is one of our Jane Does!

I’ve still not been able to get specifics on her from the niece who posted her photo, but I’ll continue to search for more information!

Bundy also bit his victims...He was into necrophilia...Is there a connection between biting and necrophilia??

I’ve about given up on the “biting” aspect of the crime! I’ve seen so many killers, serial killers, first-time-juvenile-testing-the-waters type offenders, who have had a fetish for biting! It’s almost (almost) impossible to even consider that a “signature”!

...
6. A couple of comclusions spring to my mind as a result of this speculation: either a) he was much larger than she was and was able to overpower her, or, b) he had help. I haven't (and again, I have no intention doing this) undertaken any ergonomic evaluations as to the best ways to carry out a violent assault, but it nonetheless seems to me, as an outsider, as if whoever did this to WCJD might have benefited from a third party's help, unless he really was physically much larger than she. has it been ascertained for sure that the assailant acted alone?

I'm not in a position to help most of these John and Jane Does, but if I can help narrow the focus on their murderers, I hope I can help to do so.

I HAVE considered the possibility of more than one offender! It seems possible, if one were the sadist and one were the submissive, self-serving type. Which I’d relate to a male/female pair over the more common Lucas/Toole duo...there are so many possibilities!

And please, PLEASE... NEVER say that you’re in no position to help...I promise you, no matter how mundane the tasks you’re doing seem, YOU NEVER KNOW!! YOU could be the one to find the very last piece of the puzzle! Your effort and willingness to help are very much appreciated! The world would be a better place with more people like yourself! ... like ALL OF US!!
So, thank you!


•MMcG•

 

[MadMcGoo]

On a curious side note... my never ending desire to learn more about the criminal justice system in Texas... I discovered that several County agencies (Sheriff’s Departments/Jails) who still transfer sentenced “inmates” to the nearest or otherwise designated State prison facility, used to own “station wagons” (as opposed to the luxury Tahoes or F-150s of present day )! There also happened to be transports on a regular basis, to Huntsville, during the 70s-80s from several counties in Texas.

I also found an article about one (or both) of the Autry brothers that pictured one of them getting into an older 70s model Chevy. Whether it was an agency owned vehicle or someone he knew picking him up from the LEOA he was leaving, I’m not sure... it wasn’t clear.

I have found that “70 model light blue sedans” are as common on “biters”... which is discouraging, but I thought I’d share that bit of 411!

Always
•MMcG•

 

[MadMcGoo]

Someone recently uncovered an old article that included that info that was not mentioned in more recent accounts of the crime. Personally, I don't believe it. I went to Huntsville a couple of years ago, and it just doesn't make sense in my mind that after leaving the truck-stop diner, she continued on hitchhiking late at night toward the prison where she must have known they wouldn't allow visitors at that time of the night.

And there are plenty of places to dump a body in the direction of the prison without having to backtrack through the city of Huntsville, and onto NB I-45.

As I see it, everything points to her walking out the door of the diner, and asking a trucker if he would let her sleep in his cab. From the truckstop to the dumping spot aside northbound I-45, it is a very easy logical route. There is a northbound onramp right there, and the dumping ground was just far enough north to be out of town....
That is another reason why my theory makes sense. The logistics of killing someone in the manner that she was killed requires confinement in a place where she can't be heard. The Hitchin Post parking lot is very large and if parked in a far corner of that lot, nobody would hear her screams. It is very logistically difficult to do that in the back of a station wagon, or off the side of the road where one isn't sure who is in the area. It's not logistically difficult to do that in a sleeper cab.

I’m curious...what makes you question the earlier accounts of the crime? I’ve also been to Huntsville and agree that it makes no sense for her to be out, that far especially, hitchhiking at night. Huntsville consists of two things...back to back prisons and residential area or open, wooded-ish, desolate area...so I think she was either comfortable being alone and hitchhiking (at night possibly) or she was REALLY lost and had no clue where she was or how far she was trying to go.

I agree with everything you said! I just wonder why you don’t agree with the newest article about her discovery. (And I mean no disrespect)

•MMcG•

 

[MadMcGoo]

Any chance shes a victim of Carroll Cole? I was going to comb through the thread... but I'm tired lol

I’m also not familiar with him...or her! But I’ll do some looking! Thank you!

 

[Paul B.]

Just out of interest, did 1980 Huntsville have a local radio or TV station? That might have drawn her to the area too, as i can imagine the type of radio programs that were newly emerging in 1980 joking about being near an important prison. Less so a TV program, but every avenue should be explored.

 

[RookieInvestigator]

In the 1980s there was a runaway hotline based in Houston, TX...I believe it was the only hotline in the state... Is it possible they retained their call logs over the years...If she was a runaway she may have called the hotline...

RUNAWAY SERVICE PROVIDERS :

1980s

GALVESTON
Youth Shelter of Galveston, Inc.

HOUSTON
~ Houston Metropolitan Ministries
~ Sand Dollar
~ The Family Connection, Inc.
~ Southwest Network of Youth Services

SAN ANTONIO
~ The Bridge Emergency Shelter, Inc.

AUSTIN
~ Middle Earth Crisis Services

Also in the 1980s payphones were used all the time...Back then I think you had to speak with an Operator to connect collect calls (possibly long distance calls)...I wonder if the Operators kept their call logs for the Huntsville area from 1980...

 

[RookieInvestigator]

The detective said in a video he was contacting students and teachers near Aransas Pass to see if they remember WCJD....Perhaps she was assigned to the Texas Youth Commission (TYC)... TYC had a facility in Corpus Christi called the Nueces House...Depending on her route from the Aransas Pass area to Huntsville there were other facilities in the area...They had halfway houses, state homes (schools), etc...The records could be sealed since they were minors....

Here's a document from 1983 but there's info about what programs and facilities they had around 1980...

It's just another possibility...If they can't find a record for her she could have been a ward of the state or her family may have relocated at some point...

TYC DOCUMENT (PDF)

**Hopefully the link works

 

[Northfloridafaces]

I’m also not familiar with him...or her! But I’ll do some looking! Thank you!

This is some good info on him!

According to this, he would have been in Dallas just a month before Doe's murder. He was known to work odd jobs, and I think he was a truck driver at the time. Would have been 42. Most of his victims were white women between the ages of 16 and 32. He strangled prostitutes and "unfaithful" women. He did attempt to strangle an eleven year old girl though, so he may have younger victims. He made claims of cannibalism, but that was never proven. Also sometimes engaged in necrophilia- it didnt seem like he assulted them before the attack, though.

 

[RookieInvestigator]

This is some good info on him!

According to this, he would have been in Dallas just a month before Doe's murder. He was known to work odd jobs, and I think he was a truck driver at the time. Would have been 42. Most of his victims were white women between the ages of 16 and 32. He strangled prostitutes and "unfaithful" women. He did attempt to strangle an eleven year old girl though, so he may have younger victims. He made claims of cannibalism, but that was never proven. Also sometimes engaged in necrophilia- it didnt seem like he assulted them before the attack, though.

Do you know if Cole strangled his victims with a garrote? I'm unsure if using a "garrote" is considered a signature method...I believe Anthony Shore and possibly Ridgeway used garrotes...Cole seems like a good possibility!

 

[MadMcGoo]

Just out of interest, did 1980 Huntsville have a local radio or TV station? That might have drawn her to the area too, as i can imagine the type of radio programs that were newly emerging in 1980 joking about being near an important prison. Less so a TV program, but every avenue should be explored.

I can imagine the prisons being a topic of conversation for media outlets! Although several prisons had been in the area for a little bit, it’s still something a small town would be “interested in”. I know even today the units in Huntsville remain amongst the State’s “worst” prisons and aside from housing numerous notorious criminals of that time, were in national headlines for a few historic civil rights cases! It was also about the time they reinstated capital punishment...so I can definitely see lots of talk about the prisons!!
Talk that could attract a variety of people.

The detective said in a video he was contacting students and teachers near Aransas Pass to see if they remember WCJD....Perhaps she was assigned to the Texas Youth Commission (TYC)... TYC had a facility in Corpus Christi called the Nueces House...Depending on her route from the Aransas Pass area to Huntsville there were other facilities in the area...They had halfway houses, state homes (schools), etc...The records could be sealed since they were minors....

Here's a document from 1983 but there's info about what programs and facilities they had around 1980...

It's just another possibility...If they can't find a record for her she could have been a ward of the state or her family may have relocated at some point...

TYC DOCUMENT (PDF)

**Hopefully the link works

I’ve never realized how many...facilities, I guess you’d call them... that were around then for runaways or delinquents! It seems like every old newspaper article I’ve read has contained information or a story about these places! Maybe they all still exist today and I’m just jaded, but I’ve always thought “prison, jail, juvenile detention (TYC) or ward of the State”. I’ve learned quite a bit just by researching Ms WCJD! It’s quite sad, but I sure hope she gets her name back soon!

This is some good info on him!

Geez!! Another one of those “how did I miss this?!”! Never heard the guy’s name until today...and then to read about his crimes! It seems like he was not committed to one particular MO or “signature”, that’s for sure. So I wouldn’t rule out the use of a garrote. The article was interesting, seeing that he buried some victims, ate others, dumped some...it’s very unusual to see that type of behavior from a serial killer (especially one who was active for as long as he was).

Disturbing!


•MMcG•

 

[RookieInvestigator]

I can imagine the prisons being a topic of conversation for media outlets! Although several prisons had been in the area for a little bit, it’s still something a small town would be “interested in”. I know even today the units in Huntsville remain amongst the State’s “worst” prisons and aside from housing numerous notorious criminals of that time, were in national headlines for a few historic civil rights cases! It was also about the time they reinstated capital punishment...so I can definitely see lots of talk about the prisons!!
Talk that could attract a variety of people.



I’ve never realized how many...facilities, I guess you’d call them... that were around then for runaways or delinquents! It seems like every old newspaper article I’ve read has contained information or a story about these places! Maybe they all still exist today and I’m just jaded, but I’ve always thought “prison, jail, juvenile detention (TYC) or ward of the State”. I’ve learned quite a bit just by researching Ms WCJD! It’s quite sad, but I sure hope she gets her name back soon!



Geez!! Another one of those “how did I miss this?!”! Never heard the guy’s name until today...and then to read about his crimes! It seems like he was not committed to one particular MO or “signature”, that’s for sure. So I wouldn’t rule out the use of a garrote. The article was interesting, seeing that he buried some victims, ate others, dumped some...it’s very unusual to see that type of behavior from a serial killer (especially one who was active for as long as he was).

Disturbing!


•MMcG•

I'm currently reading an article and IMO it is eerily similar to WCJD...
Did the trucker driver go north...Or is this what happens to sex workers murdered at truck stops...

TRUCK DRIVER SERIAL KILLER

 

[MadMcGoo]

The link did work BTW! Good information, thank you for sharing!

•MMcG•

ETA: the article on the truck stop/prostitute murders does contain several similarities! I know a lot of victims are dumped along routes that long haul truck drivers would have naturally been familiar with but I wonder if there isn’t some connection between the C.B. radio traffic and the fact that often times these victims are found by other truckers? That has always struck me as maybe too coincidental. Similar to “The Texas Killing Fields” murders being linked to more than one killer. The C.B. radios and ‘handles’ and lingo would open up an ideal line of communication for these criminals! I’m sure they never had to worry about “pings” or any type of record of their conversations either.

 

[Northfloridafaces]

Do you know if Cole strangled his victims with a garrote? I'm unsure if using a "garrote" is considered a signature method...I believe Anthony Shore and possibly Ridgeway used garrotes...Cole seems like a good possibility!

I don't, unfortunately
But I will say that I found something odd; he was in a Huntville Prison in December of 1980. I know that doesn't really connect if Doe was murdered by him (he wasn't in jail at the time), but it potentially puts him in that specific area. Not to mention the fact that he killed at least three women during that November...
Heres a lot more detailed information that I found last night

 

[RookieInvestigator]

ETA: the article on the truck stop/prostitute murders does contain several similarities! I know a lot of victims are dumped along routes that long haul truck drivers would have naturally been familiar with but I wonder if there isn’t some connection between the C.B. radio traffic and the fact that often times these victims are found by other truckers? That has always struck me as maybe too coincidental. Similar to “The Texas Killing Fields” murders being linked to more than one killer. The C.B. radios and ‘handles’ and lingo would open up an ideal line of communication for these criminals! I’m sure they never had to worry about “pings” or any type of record of their conversations either.

If each state retained old weigh station records, and checked all trucks that passed through a certain mile radius (put on a spreadsheet) in each direction they could solve some murders IMO....That would be an exhaustive search of their records... The trucks have to stop at some point...However, if it solved only 1 cold case, or saved only 1 life it would be worth it...

Then a national task force can see what trucks were in the area during a certain murder...I think some truck drivers are committing multiple murders...

Will this happen??? Wishful thinking on my part...The disadvantage is there are so many trucks, but if there are multiple murders in a certain location it would seem they have a regular route in the area...

 

[RookieInvestigator]

I don't, unfortunately
But I will say that I found something odd; he was in a Huntville Prison in December of 1980. I know that doesn't really connect if Doe was murdered by him (he wasn't in jail at the time), but it potentially puts him in that specific area. Not to mention the fact that he killed at least three women during that November...
Heres a lot more detailed information that I found last night

"Despite that judgment, Carroll Edward Cole was released on October 4, 1980 and bused off to Dallas, where he would murder three more women by November 30th."

He was arrested in Texas on federal charges...Held in Springfield, MO...He fooled a doctor and they released him...I wonder if the doctor found out what he did after his release... Unbelievable!

"A call to the halfway house told Robinson that Cole had arrived in Dallas on October 8, 1980, two days after his release from a federal lockup for mail theft."

"After missing curfew several times, he had left the halfway house on November 3..."

So October 31, 1980 your thinking he left Dallas and drove to Huntsville and killed WCJD..He was breaking curfew so he possibly had opportunity...

 

[sevengirl]

"Despite that judgment, Carroll Edward Cole was released on October 4, 1980 and bused off to Dallas, where he would murder three more women by November 30th."

He was arrested in Texas on federal charges...Held in Springfield, MO...He fooled a doctor and they released him...I wonder if the doctor found out what he did after his release... Unbelievable!

"A call to the halfway house told Robinson that Cole had arrived in Dallas on October 8, 1980, two days after his release from a federal lockup for mail theft."

"After missing curfew several times, he had left the halfway house on November 3..."

So October 31, 1980 your thinking he left Dallas and drove to Huntsville and killed WCJD..He was breaking curfew so he possibly had opportunity...

Wow. This is the 1st I've heard of Cole. Is there DNA for him anywhere? Do we have DNA foe WCJD's killer.....I've never been clear on that.