Who changed her clothes?

Hmm, she had to stick to the whole "She was completely zonked" story.


I'm not seeing JR do it, as surely it would be risky to fiddle around with her hair like that during staging and why would he bother? (unless he is deliberately placing more of Patsy in the scene I guess). I think it's more likely to have come from her hair-tie collection in the messy bedroom/bathroom at the hands of Patsy.
Burke? hmmm my son is a clever kid but he would struggle to know how to tie a band in long hair.

do you think the nightie actually got put on? So maybe she went upstairs with Patsy, sit on toilet, party clothes off, nightie on, (no undies at this stage as Patsy was grabbing kid-nappy), hair yanked back and then she'd had enough. Or was she in the star top for the whole time do you think?


Veronica Lodge,
Hmm, she had to stick to the whole "She was completely zonked" story.
Looks like it it, except when JR says I knew the Partially Gifts were Unwrapped, but Patsy did not.

Nightgown on/off ? Well has to be on given the forensic evidence, unless you admit a transitory phase, that allows for out of bounds evidence to happen?

Or was she in the star top for the whole time do you think?
Entirely possible.


As is JDI with Patsy helping out. For those in the know JonBenet's pageant role may have extended domesticaly and if you peruse JR's postmortem behavor which might be characterised as an intruder did it because he cannot deny that there was a physical sexual assault?

My many detractors have me down as BDI, down to emailing and PM/ing me on the subject, telling me how I killed the case, etc.

They forget, of course, that I was originally JDI, with Patsy playing ball, which is actually how it looks looks in the real world away from the various theories put up by speculators.


You would have to defend JonBenet's pageant career against that of John's aversion to any link with his daughters and mothers in such a capacity?
 
My many detractors have me down as BDI, down to emailing and PM/ing me on the subject, telling me how I killed the case, etc.

Well please don't bloody well take them seriously! I'm glad smart-thinkers like you are still working through this case. It frustrates me so much that it was never solved and I read and re-read posts from yourself and others which make me think and ponder, and most importantly, grateful (!) that there are others on this planet that won't give up on JonBenet Ramsey.

Ok, back to normal programming... As you probably know, I lean towards to JDI. That is, JDI, with him doing all he can to throw both his wife and son in the frying pan if need be, if it takes the heat off him. Especially now, in light of his releasing the photo from the party. I can certainly see how some on here are BDI, but I think that's all thanks to John and his manipulation of events. I'm working my way (again) through his interviews and things just don't add up - ie, he said he was helping Burke build his toy BEFORE bed, but Burke admits to Dr Phil that he snuck down later when everyone was 'kinda in bed'. I'll post more about this when I've dug more.

Getting back to her clothes that night - I think that Barbie nightgown came downstairs with her (and her pillow? Is that her pillow on the kitchen bench?), whether she was wearing it or carrying it I'm not sure. If it's sort of silky, then it's possible she used it as a comfort thing (like Linus from Charlie Brown comics).

I haven't even started to figure out John and the pageants. I only know so far that he obviously liked attractive females, and controlling them... Is that what you mean?
Or do you mean that 'the fellow doth protest too much'? ie. John only wanted to celebrate the 'talent' section..
 
My many detractors have me down as BDI, down to emailing and PM/ing me on the subject, telling me how I killed the case, etc.

UK, how could you have possibly 'killed the case'?
Ridiculous.
Glad you remain impervious to these detractors.
 
Ok, back to normal programming... As you probably know, I lean towards to JDI. That is, JDI, with him doing all he can to throw both his wife and son in the frying pan if need be, if it takes the heat off him. Especially now, in light of his releasing the photo from the party. I can certainly see how some on here are BDI, but I think that's all thanks to John and his manipulation of events. I'm working my way (again) through his interviews and things just don't add up - ie, he said he was helping Burke build his toy BEFORE bed, but Burke admits to Dr Phil that he snuck down later when everyone was 'kinda in bed'. I'll post more about this when I've dug more.

Getting back to her clothes that night - I think that Barbie nightgown came downstairs with her (and her pillow? Is that her pillow on the kitchen bench?), whether she was wearing it or carrying it I'm not sure. If it's sort of silky, then it's possible she used it as a comfort thing (like Linus from Charlie Brown comics).

Heyya VL

JR's recent recounting (Dr Oz) of his time unobserved in the home,
that the door had a letter slot, and that he was waiting for possible communication from the kidnappers on the 26th arriving at his
door, just doesn't ring true, ... again.
 
We don’t know that was from the White’s party. We don’t know if it was cropped, photoshopped or not. We do t know if it’s digital or not. Put in context. I want the phots before and after.

On the tv show that released the photo; JR said it is THE last photo of JBR and was taken at the whites party. That photo had never been released until that tv show
 
ST also said that police had seen photos of the White's party and JB was wearing the white shirt she was found in. Patsy admitted arguing with JB that day- JB wanted to wear the new white shirt from Gap with her black velvet pants and vest. But Patsy was going to wear a red sweater with her black velvet pants and wanted JB to wear her red shirt so they would match. JB's topknot ponytail was found with a black, red and white hair tie in it, which would have matched either way. As far as that red turtleneck...Patsy knew they had a very early flight on JR's plane the next day. She could possibly have changed JB out of the white top into the red top so she could sleep in it and be half-dressed for that flight. Yet Patsy told police JB was asleep when they arrived home and put right to bed. Because Patsy knew police had photos proving what they all wore to the party, that would mean JB had to be found dressed in the shirt she wore that day. Doesn't mean the red top was bloodied IF she ever had it on, simply means it was replaced with the white one because otherwise might indicate JB was awake when they got home (or woke up at some point).
 
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Last photo of JBR recently released shows her with one top pony tail in a hair tie. Autopsy and crime scene photos confirm second bottom pony tail secured with blue band. Autopsy also states blue band under tie in top pony tail. Seems more likely to me SAME PERSON made both ponytails, going to, and familiar with, source for blue bands. Especially knowing it would take a (rubber?) band to form and hold the ponytail securely...that a hair tie alone could easily allow for slippage of the ponytail. I can only surmise that Patsy would have been that person. And it's also my opinion that JB was awake at the time of the second ponytail going in.
 
Having used those fabric "scrunchi" hair ties on my own daughter's long hair, yes they do pull out easily. I'd have made the ponytail using a coated elastic (I believe this was the type found under the hair tie and also on the lower ponytail). I also used to braid my daughter's long hair for bed- and if she was very sleepy or asleep, I'd just pull it into a low ponytail at the nape of her neck-just as JB had.
 
Hmm, she had to stick to the whole "She was completely zonked" story.


I'm not seeing JR do it, as surely it would be risky to fiddle around with her hair like that during staging and why would he bother? (unless he is deliberately placing more of Patsy in the scene I guess). I think it's more likely to have come from her hair-tie collection in the messy bedroom/bathroom at the hands of Patsy.
Burke? hmmm my son is a clever kid but he would struggle to know how to tie a band in long hair.

do you think the nightie actually got put on? So maybe she went upstairs with Patsy, sit on toilet, party clothes off, nightie on, (no undies at this stage as Patsy was grabbing kid-nappy), hair yanked back and then she'd had enough. Or was she in the star top for the whole time do you think?
I don't think she was in the star top the whole time. I think PR put her to bed in the Red Turtleneck, because she wanted to be that much ahead on getting ready for the morning flight. It's even occured to me she might have had to bargain with JB...allowing her to wear the Wednesday Bloomies under the longjohns overnight in exchange for wearing the top and then getting back into the rest of the black velvet outfit, laid out very carefully in the bed next to her, for the morning flight. It's always struck me odd that the velvet outfit was laid out so neatly and not strewn on the floor or bed like other clothing articles in her room. But if there were plans for her to wear the outfit again, this time with the red shirt, it might explain the placement of the outfit.
 
It's always struck me odd that the velvet outfit was laid out so neatly

midwest mama, I read in a Patsy interview that she said the velvet clothing on the other bed was actually the black velvet dress she had worn to the White's Christmas dinner the night before.

1 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Anything else

2 on the bed?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, this looks

4 like a little -- the little pot holder square

5 she was making. This multi-colored thing here.

6 This black thing I can't (INAUDIBLE). Oh,

7 that's sort of looks like it might be the little

8 velvet dress (INAUDIBLE). Little silver snaps.

9 TRIP DeMUTH: When did she last

10 wear that?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: She wore that to the

12 Whites on the 25th.

13 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. The evening of

14 the 25th?

Add to that, I think I can see what looks like velvet pants with on top of her boots right by the doorway/side of the doll house in the radar video. I'll have to go have another look but I think Patsy may actually be telling the truth about the dress on the bed.
 
midwest mama, I read in a Patsy interview that she said the velvet clothing on the other bed was actually the black velvet dress she had worn to the White's Christmas dinner the night before.

1 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Anything else

2 on the bed?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, this looks

4 like a little -- the little pot holder square

5 she was making. This multi-colored thing here.

6 This black thing I can't (INAUDIBLE). Oh,

7 that's sort of looks like it might be the little

8 velvet dress (INAUDIBLE). Little silver snaps.

9 TRIP DeMUTH: When did she last

10 wear that?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: She wore that to the

12 Whites on the 25th.

13 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. The evening of

14 the 25th?

Add to that, I think I can see what looks like velvet pants with on top of her boots right by the doorway/side of the doll house in the radar video. I'll have to go have another look but I think Patsy may actually be telling the truth about the dress on the bed.

Veronica Lodge,
They are black velvet pants. JonBenet wore them to the White's Party, she is saying she removed them from JonBenet, folded them up and placed them on the spare bed.

.
 
UKGuy, haha sometimes I feel you are being very patient with me! I am a goose hey? Yes now I re-read that interview I'd say Patsy was actually saying 'dress PANTS' where it was INAUDIBLE perhaps?? I got confused because she wore a black dress (with lace bits) at their own party when they decorated the gingerbread houses.

Sorry midwest mama ignore my above post... I'll go sit in the corner quietly for awhile haha!
 
UKGuy, haha sometimes I feel you are being very patient with me! I am a goose hey? Yes now I re-read that interview I'd say Patsy was actually saying 'dress PANTS' where it was INAUDIBLE perhaps?? I got confused because she wore a black dress (with lace bits) at their own party when they decorated the gingerbread houses.

Sorry midwest mama ignore my above post... I'll go sit in the corner quietly for awhile haha!

Veronica Lodge,
Patsy is just playing games with the interviewer, she knows fine JonBenet never wore a dress to the White's Christmas Party, just check out her Last Photo, do you see any dress, do you see velvet pants?

In the interview excerpt below Patsy confirms JonBenet was wearing black velvet pants and that she removed them, also she says JonBenet was wearing underwear which she did not change.
Atlanta 2000 Interview with Patsy, excerpt
4 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) Mrs. Ramsey,

5 prior to going to the Whites, did you see

6 JonBenet in panties? In other words, were

7 you at any point, prior to going to the

8 Whites, in the process of her getting

9 dressed, did you ever see if she was wearing

10 panties?

11 A. I mean, I just probably didn't

12 notice. I would, she must have had them on

13 or I would have certainly noticed if she

14 didn't have any on.

15 Q. When you came home and you got

16 her ready for bed, did you notice if she was

17 wearing panties? When you changed her out

18 of the black velvet --

19 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

20 Q. - type pants --

21 A. Right.

22 Q. -- and into the long underwear

23 pants --

24 A. Uh-huh, right.

25 Q. -- the White ones, did you notice

0113

1 if she had a pair of panties on?

2 A. Yes, she did. I believe she did.

3 Q. Why do you remember that? I

4 mean, what do you remember? I just want to

5 know what you remember about that.

6 A. Well, I took the jeans off and

7 put the long leggies on.

8 Q. And you noticed that she had

9 panties on in that process?

10 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

11 Q. You have to answer yes or no.

12 A. Well, I noticed -- I mean,

13 nothing was unusual. I mean, if she hadn't

14 had panties on, it would have been unusual.

15 So --

16 Q. So there was nothing unusual

17 there?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. When you actually removed those --

20 you have -- they are black velvet pants?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And did the panties come down

23 with them when you removed those pants, if

24 you remember?

25 A. I don't remember.

0114

1 Q. If they had, would you remember,

2 or is that too long ago?

3 A. It has been a long time.

4 Q. But did you change -- did you put

5 a fresh pair of panties on her at that point

6 when you were getting her ready for bed?

7 A. No.

.
 
UKGuy, haha sometimes I feel you are being very patient with me! I am a goose hey? Yes now I re-read that interview I'd say Patsy was actually saying 'dress PANTS' where it was INAUDIBLE perhaps?? I got confused because she wore a black dress (with lace bits) at their own party when they decorated the gingerbread houses.

Sorry midwest mama ignore my above post... I'll go sit in the corner quietly for awhile haha!

I think Patsy was actually saying "VEST" and not dress. JB wore a black velvet vest with the black velvet pants. It was all part of the new outfit (including the white star shirt) that she wanted to wear that day. The vest had silver snaps on it. The pants may have too.
 
The Wednesday panties would have only mattered to Patsy, IMO. JB was well-known to ask anyone in earshot to help her wipe herself in the bathroom, and someone might have remembered special panties like those. SO if JB was wearing her OWN pair in size 6-8, they'd have to be replaced with the identical type (only a size 12 being available). I think the stagers needed to have it appear that nothing had been changed since she was put to bed. Since the blood had been wiped away, they never thought about it being discovered when she was swabbed during the autopsy. In addition, the drops of blood on her panties did NOT seep through to the long johns. Other blood inside the vagina and on the forchette would not have been seen except at the autopsy. I think the size 12 panties were thought to be a way to prove she had not been changed. When questioned about whether she was aware that the panties were several sizes too large, Patsy told LE that JB could just help herself to whatever was in her panty drawer. And we all know that the panties were part of a set of 7. NO other size 12s were found in the house. BUT the remaining 6 pairs were returned BY the Rs to police 5 years later! Said to have been found in a packing crate.
 
The Wednesday panties would have only mattered to Patsy, IMO. JB was well-known to ask anyone in earshot to help her wipe herself in the bathroom, and someone might have remembered special panties like those. SO if JB was wearing her OWN pair in size 6-8, they'd have to be replaced with the identical type (only a size 12 being available). I think the stagers needed to have it appear that nothing had been changed since she was put to bed. Since the blood had been wiped away, they never thought about it being discovered when she was swabbed during the autopsy. In addition, the drops of blood on her panties did NOT seep through to the long johns. Other blood inside the vagina and on the forchette would not have been seen except at the autopsy. I think the size 12 panties were thought to be a way to prove she had not been changed. When questioned about whether she was aware that the panties were several sizes too large, Patsy told LE that JB could just help herself to whatever was in her panty drawer. And we all know that the panties were part of a set of 7. NO other size 12s were found in the house. BUT the remaining 6 pairs were returned BY the Rs to police 5 years later! Said to have been found in a packing crate.

DeeDee249,
The Wednesday panties would have only mattered to Patsy, IMO.
This might be the case if JonBenet was appearing at some pageant where she might be observed changing between acts.

Otherwise the Wednesday panties cannot mean anything to anyone outside the Ramsey household, precisely because nobody can prove or disprove what she wore to bed, what she wore to the White's Christmas Party is a matter for debate, but has no impact on what she ended up wearing in bed.


SO if JB was wearing her OWN pair in size 6-8, they'd have to be replaced with the identical type (only a size 12 being available).
Nope the mistake here is to ignore the size, I did for years. Why bother with a Wednesday pair which were hidden beneath the longjohns anyway, nice one Burke, when the size alone will act as a red flag indicator in the same way an absence of a Wednesday label would.

So without a size-6 pair labeled Wednesday anything else is a red flag to who it matters.


I think the stagers needed to have it appear that nothing had been changed since she was put to bed.
ITA. Except Patsy's line is JonBenet dressed herself in the size-12's, when she cannot tell us.

If JonBenet wore the size-12's to the White's Party as was observed as such then the size factor alone could confirm this by anyone who observed Jonbenet, say using the bathroom?

Otherwise nobody knows what underwear she wore the White's Party. So therefore it does not matter what underwear JonBenet is redressed in, any pair of size-6 underwear Day Of The Week or not, as JonBenet could not read, it can be claimed JonBenet picked her size-6 underwear at random.

Even if she could read, lazyness or arbitrary decision making could be touted as reason for JonBenet selecting any pair of size-6 underwear.

So whomever redressed JonBenet in the size-12's night have matched the Day Of The Week Bloomingdales aspect, but then fell down big-time on the size-issue, so much so nobody dissents on the size-12's being a red-flag, something noted from the start of the case.

Since the exercise was homicide staging and not pageant dressup either parent would have realized dressing JonBenet in size-12's with a Wednesday day Of The Week would not work !

They would know any pair of size-6 underwear, available from the same location Patsy says she fetched the longjohns, would be sufficient for compotent staging. They could explain away any observed differences between what she was seen wearing at the White's with what she ends up wearing to bed with ad hoc ramsey style stories, e.g. she changed for the next day's flight, she picked any old size-6 pair for reason x.

The only person who might think Wednesday size-12's and longjohns were fine for a homicide staging might be someone with absolutely no knowledge of such matters, e.g. Burke, he would be thinking like any other child, i.e. inductively, she wore my longjohns before so its no big-deal, and the Day Of The Week matches, anyway its hidden beneath the longjohns, so he thinks its good enough, not realizing the size-12 factor is a red flag to any parent, i.e. its a childs mistake?


I think the size 12 panties were thought to be a way to prove she had not been changed.
Yes, thought is the operative word here. As nobody, except possibly Patsy, i.e. she chaperoned JonBenet bathing and dressing for the White's Party, can know exactly what underwear she wore either to the White's or to bed.

This person cannot be Patsy as she would know the size-6 Wednesday Bloomingdales would ultimately be discovered as missing and that the size-12 factor would be a red flag. What could not be simpler than selecting any pair of size-6 Bloomingdales from her bathroom underwear drawer and dressing her in those, job done?

Also Coroner Meyer's remarks about JonBenet being wiped down and the bloodstains on her underwear not being matched by similar blood deposits on her genital region tells everyone something has changed, even if it was not her underwear, i.e. the size-12's.

Looks like JonBenet was laid on the Barbie Nightgown and wiped down with the size-6 underwear or the pink pajama bottoms, the wiping down cloth has to be one of the items that vanished or it was the Barbie Nightgown as it is bloodstained?

.
 

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