OH Pike County: 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested#49

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Johnny B Bad said:
Hello and happy Fathers Day fellow sleuthers, I saw where someone posted on here the other day about the same thing I’m speculating about, I have set and thought about something for along time also and would like to hear some feedback, the Wagners where big into the flea markets over the past years and a lot of guns are sold there each year, l would say the ATF monitors the flea market heavily and the Ohio Militants probably gets most of their guns from flea markets, I don’t think that drugs where the only under current of e-legal active going on in this murder case, also LE hasn’t said the caliber of the guns that killed the Rhodens/Gillie. If the same guns in the movie Boondocks Saints where used those was high dollar guns and I really don’t think they were threw away, I think they was hidden or sold, money was tight around the time of the murders, the Wagners 4 had house payment, new barns and fighting for child custody, but their way more to these killings and JMO there is more than 4 people could be involved JMO
Click to expand...

That's an interesting theory Johnny, especially about the possibility that guns used were expensive, so not destroyed. Remember when DeWine named the Wagners as in their "laser focus", he asked for any information from anyone who may have bought something from the Wagners? It also referred to guns, etc.

Wagner family “interactions, conversations, dealings, or transactions … which could be personal, business, or otherwise” are of interest to investigators, with specific emphasis on “vehicles, firearms, and ammunition.”
Click to expand...

BBM

Pike County murders: Ohio AG touts ‘laser’ focus on Alaska family

There was an ATF officer at the crime scenes after the murders, they were probably able to figure out the type of weapons used. I wonder if they found them and will have use them as evidence in the trials. If so, that may be how they retrieved DNA from the killers (possibly victims, too). If someone bought or traded for a murder weapon and turned it in to LE, are they the witnesses the defense attorneys are focused on? Pity any innocent person who bought one of those guns at a flea market, then got dragged into this mess.

Do we have any idea what kind of weapons the Wags might have used? The only info I recall is the ballistics info that Gary Rhodens dad mentioned at his funeral. Two types of shells found at that crime scene.
 
Betty P said:
That's an interesting theory Johnny, especially about the possibility that guns used were expensive, so not destroyed. Remember when DeWine named the Wagners as in their "laser focus", he asked for any information from anyone who may have bought something from the Wagners? It also referred to guns, etc.



BBM

Pike County murders: Ohio AG touts ‘laser’ focus on Alaska family

There was an ATF officer at the crime scenes after the murders, they were probably able to figure out the type of weapons used. I wonder if they found them and will have use them as evidence in the trials. If so, that may be how they retrieved DNA from the killers (possibly victims, too). If someone bought or traded for a murder weapon and turned it in to LE, are they the witnesses the defense attorneys are focused on? Pity any innocent person who bought one of those guns at a flea market, then got dragged into this mess.

Do we have any idea what kind of weapons the Wags might have used? The only info I recall is the ballistics info that Gary Rhodens dad mentioned at his funeral. Two types of shells found at that crime scene.
Click to expand...
My memory is starting to get clouded but wasn’t there also mention of the investigation taking LE through various states (I think at least 8)? so certainly the sale of weapons could explain the multi state investigation.

ETA:How big was the Pike County murders investigation?
 
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Momof4RN said:
My memory is starting to get clouded but wasn’t there also mention of the investigation taking LE through various states (I think at least 8)? so certainly the sale of weapons could explain the multi state investigation.
Click to expand...

Yes! Also possible. There was evidence of them in Missouri, IIRC they may have gone to TX and passed through some northern states. Will have to check. There are others here who researched a lot of that.

Yep, LE probably followed them to see if they were getting rid of evidence along the way.

ETA: When you think of the scope of this investigation, it's no wonder the evidence files are so voluminous. The trials will take a while, probably, just to get through all the evidence.

  • planning, etc. leading up to the murders (starting at 1 yr before)
  • carrying out the murders - 8 victims, 4 crime scenes - all processed and preserved
  • zillions of tips, many possibly false - fed by W's
  • other crime related scenes - poss staging location, evidence at 2 farms, etc
  • Leaving town - farm searches, searches of Brown farm, following suspects through several states, trip to AK, questioning and searches along the way
  • Surveillance in AK, later searches after they left, questioning hundreds of witnesses and neighbors, church, etc
  • Return to Ohio w/ surveillance, etc
  • And all that data from phones, texts, emails, hacking, surveillance of victims, GPS data tracking movements, purchasing of equipment, weapons etc. Hundreds of messages, etc. about custody
Lots of evidence to cover, so much of it still unknown to the public.
 
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Betty P said:
That's an interesting theory Johnny, especially about the possibility that guns used were expensive, so not destroyed. Remember when DeWine named the Wagners as in their "laser focus", he asked for any information from anyone who may have bought something from the Wagners? It also referred to guns, etc.



BBM

Pike County murders: Ohio AG touts ‘laser’ focus on Alaska family

There was an ATF officer at the crime scenes after the murders, they were probably able to figure out the type of weapons used. I wonder if they found them and will have use them as evidence in the trials. If so, that may be how they retrieved DNA from the killers (possibly victims, too). If someone bought or traded for a murder weapon and turned it in to LE, are they the witnesses the defense attorneys are focused on? Pity any innocent person who bought one of those guns at a flea market, then got dragged into this mess.

Do we have any idea what kind of weapons the Wags might have used? The only info I recall is the ballistics info that Gary Rhodens dad mentioned at his funeral. Two types of shells found at that crime scene.
Click to expand...
The autopsy reports said Gary Rhoden was shot with a larger caliber gun.
 
I have been thinking about the DNA part. I saw a show on ID about three people in MO that killed a man and his wife. The show said they went to Walmart and bought new coveralls, boots, gloves, ski masks, hair nets, duct tape and bleach and cleaning products.

When they got ready to carry out the murder they all took showers and used bleach to wash themselves. When they got to the victims house that night they got out of the parked vehicle then donned the hair nets. They put the coveralls over their regular clothes then put on the boots, gloves and ski masks. Then they used the duct tape around their ankles, wrists, and necks to tape the coveralls to the boots, gloves, and ski masks. After the crime they took everything off and put it in plastic bags. As a result no DNA was left at the scene of the crime.

I am thinking this could be the "sophisticated" part of DeWines statement right after the murders.

I can't remember the name of the people or where in MO I just remember seeing that show several times on ID. This could be why there is no DNA for George and may not be for any of the other 3. Keep in mind that if I watched that show the W4's could have also and the buying boots ect at Walmart in Angie's discovery lends credence to this theory.

JMO
 
Johnny B Bad said:
The autopsy reports said Gary Rhoden was shot with a larger caliber gun.
Click to expand...

Recall, too, the indictments have additional charges/ specifications related to the weapons used. That may refer to the use of silencers, but could it mean the ammo and weapons themselves? Charges apply to all 4 Wagners.

https://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov...cial-Prosecutions/PikeCountyMurderIndictments

Counts 1 - 8 Aggravated Murder Specifications
  • Specification 3 mentions firearm muffler or suppressor, also automatic weapon
  • Specification 4 - This one says GW3 (and others) committed Aggravated Murder for the purpose of "escaping detection, apprehension, trial, etc." for another criminal offense. What was the other offense?
Count 14 - Unlawful possession of dangerous ordnance
  • Specification 3 mentions having a firearm under his control, etc. while using the dangerous ordnance. (JMO, sounds like this was something besides the weapon)
What was the dangerous ordnance? Is this just another reference to the firearm suppressor?

Definition of Dangerous Ordnance per Ohio Revised Code

Lawriter - ORC - 2923.11 Weapons control definitions.

"(K) "Dangerous ordnance" means any of the following, except as provided in division (L) of this section:

(1) Any automatic or sawed-off firearm, zip-gun, or ballistic knife;

(2) Any explosive device or incendiary device;

(3) Nitroglycerin, nitrocellulose, nitrostarch, PETN, cyclonite, TNT, picric acid, and other high explosives; amatol, tritonal, tetrytol, pentolite, pecretol, cyclotol, and other high explosive compositions; plastic explosives; dynamite, blasting gelatin, gelatin dynamite, sensitized ammonium nitrate, liquid-oxygen blasting explosives, blasting powder, and other blasting agents; and any other explosive substance having sufficient brisance or power to be particularly suitable for use as a military explosive, or for use in mining, quarrying, excavating, or demolitions;

(4) Any firearm, rocket launcher, mortar, artillery piece, grenade, mine, bomb, torpedo, or similar weapon, designed and manufactured for military purposes, and the ammunition for that weapon;

(5) Any firearm muffler or suppressor;

(6) Any combination of parts that is intended by the owner for use in converting any firearm or other device into a dangerous ordnance "

.....

Perhaps just stacking charges for longer sentences if convicted.
 
RAISINISBACK said:
I have been thinking about the DNA part. I saw a show on ID about three people in MO that killed a man and his wife. The show said they went to Walmart and bought new coveralls, boots, gloves, ski masks, hair nets, duct tape and bleach and cleaning products.

When they got ready to carry out the murder they all took showers and used bleach to wash themselves. When they got to the victims house that night they got out of the parked vehicle then donned the hair nets. They put the coveralls over their regular clothes then put on the boots, gloves and ski masks. Then they used the duct tape around their ankles, wrists, and necks to tape the coveralls to the boots, gloves, and ski masks. After the crime they took everything off and put it in plastic bags. As a result no DNA was left at the scene of the crime.

I am thinking this could be the "sophisticated" part of DeWines statement right after the murders.

I can't remember the name of the people or where in MO I just remember seeing that show several times on ID. This could be why there is no DNA for George and may not be for any of the other 3. Keep in mind that if I watched that show the W4's could have also and the buying boots ect at Walmart in Angie's discovery lends credence to this theory.

JMO
Click to expand...
Well did they dye their hair black to fade into the night time, the black hair was odd and why not Billy, his hair was the same color?
 
Betty P said:
Recall, too, the indictments have additional charges/ specifications related to the weapons used. That may refer to the use of silencers, but could it mean the ammo and weapons themselves? Charges apply to all 4 Wagners.

https://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov...cial-Prosecutions/PikeCountyMurderIndictments

Counts 1 - 8 Aggravated Murder Specifications
  • Specification 3 mentions firearm muffler or suppressor, also automatic weapon
  • Specification 4 - This one says GW3 (and others) committed Aggravated Murder for the purpose of "escaping detection, apprehension, trial, etc." for another criminal offense. What was the other offense?
Count 14 - Unlawful possession of dangerous ordnance
  • Specification 3 mentions having a firearm under his control, etc. while using the dangerous ordnance. (JMO, sounds like this was something besides the weapon)
What was the dangerous ordnance? Is this just another reference to the firearm suppressor?

Definition of Dangerous Ordnance per Ohio Revised Code

Lawriter - ORC - 2923.11 Weapons control definitions.

"(K) "Dangerous ordnance" means any of the following, except as provided in division (L) of this section:

(1) Any automatic or sawed-off firearm, zip-gun, or ballistic knife;

(2) Any explosive device or incendiary device;

(3) Nitroglycerin, nitrocellulose, nitrostarch, PETN, cyclonite, TNT, picric acid, and other high explosives; amatol, tritonal, tetrytol, pentolite, pecretol, cyclotol, and other high explosive compositions; plastic explosives; dynamite, blasting gelatin, gelatin dynamite, sensitized ammonium nitrate, liquid-oxygen blasting explosives, blasting powder, and other blasting agents; and any other explosive substance having sufficient brisance or power to be particularly suitable for use as a military explosive, or for use in mining, quarrying, excavating, or demolitions;

(4) Any firearm, rocket launcher, mortar, artillery piece, grenade, mine, bomb, torpedo, or similar weapon, designed and manufactured for military purposes, and the ammunition for that weapon;

(5) Any firearm muffler or suppressor;

(6) Any combination of parts that is intended by the owner for use in converting any firearm or other device into a dangerous ordnance "

.....

Perhaps just stacking charges for longer sentences if convicted.
Click to expand...
The State needs to stack as many charges as possible on to the accused, the guilty needs to pay for their crimes.
 
RAISINISBACK said:
I have been thinking about the DNA part. I saw a show on ID about three people in MO that killed a man and his wife. The show said they went to Walmart and bought new coveralls, boots, gloves, ski masks, hair nets, duct tape and bleach and cleaning products.

When they got ready to carry out the murder they all took showers and used bleach to wash themselves. When they got to the victims house that night they got out of the parked vehicle then donned the hair nets. They put the coveralls over their regular clothes then put on the boots, gloves and ski masks. Then they used the duct tape around their ankles, wrists, and necks to tape the coveralls to the boots, gloves, and ski masks. After the crime they took everything off and put it in plastic bags. As a result no DNA was left at the scene of the crime.

I am thinking this could be the "sophisticated" part of DeWines statement right after the murders.

I can't remember the name of the people or where in MO I just remember seeing that show several times on ID. This could be why there is no DNA for George and may not be for any of the other 3. Keep in mind that if I watched that show the W4's could have also and the buying boots ect at Walmart in Angie's discovery lends credence to this theory.

JMO
Click to expand...

Sounds interesting. So how did they get caught without any DNA?
 
Berrybell said:
I take it to mean they left fingerprints
Click to expand...

Yes, it means LE found fingerprints somewhere. Remember, DNA can sometimes be retrieved from fingerprint evidence, too. How much of this evidence came from the weapons and the silencer part?

It still seems important that LE didn't move to arrest the W's until after they retrieved the silencer parts from the well and tested them. It's possible they found one or two of the killers' DNA on the silencer part, but not all. Also possible to find a latent print on that (Maglite) part.

Also, if LE found some of the murder weapons, it's possible they had DNA from both the killers and the victims. If the weapons only had the killers DNA, though, they would have needed the silencer part with the killers prints/DNA to tie them to the crime scene. Recall, they said the silencer part was connected to other "parts" found at the crime scene. Some here have speculated that the "parts" found at the crime scene were some kind of synthetic material used for insulation in home made silencers that is discharged when the weapon is fired.

So maybe:

Wagners DNA on Weapons
+
silencer "fluff" found at crime scenes
+
silencer part (Maglite) found in well w/lab work linking it to Wags & weapons
=
Arrest

Just a working theory. JMO

Not circumstantial, but direct evidence
 
Betty P said:
Yes, it means LE found fingerprints somewhere. Remember, DNA can sometimes be retrieved from fingerprint evidence, too. How much of this evidence came from the weapons and the silencer part?

It still seems important that LE didn't move to arrest the W's until after they retrieved the silencer parts from the well and tested them. It's possible they found one or two of the killers' DNA on the silencer part, but not all. Also possible to find a latent print on that (Maglite) part.

Also, if LE found some of the murder weapons, it's possible they had DNA from both the killers and the victims. If the weapons only had the killers DNA, though, they would have needed the silencer part with the killers prints/DNA to tie them to the crime scene. Recall, they said the silencer part was connected to other "parts" found at the crime scene. Some here have speculated that the "parts" found at the crime scene were some kind of synthetic material used for insulation in home made silencers that is discharged when the weapon is fired.

So maybe:

Wagners DNA on Weapons
+
silencer "fluff" found at crime scenes
+
silencer part (Maglite) found in well w/lab work linking it to Wags & weapons
=
Arrest

Just a working theory. JMO

Not circumstantial, but direct evidence
Click to expand...

If the "fluff" from the crime scenes match what was in the silencer found. It would be a big deal.
 
Dudly said:
If the "fluff" from the crime scenes match what was in the silencer found. It would be a big deal.
Click to expand...

Just as important, the DNA from the killers linked to the silencer / fluff and the crime scene is needed.

Also interesting the dates following the listing of DNA testing in the discovery:

Earliest I'm seeing so far:
4/23/16 ( 2 samples)
4/26/16 (2 samples)
4/30/16 (1 sample)


Firearms were tested on
5/9/2016
1/3/17
2/4/17

Latent prints
5/2/16

Trace Evidence was tested early (5/24/16), then more in 2018
7/26/18
8/1/18
8/9/18

More to follow, but anyone know what the separate Lab File numbers mean? Is each of these a separate sample of DNA or re-testing of the same samples?
 
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In Evidence: Edward Jacob Wagner
BCI Latent Prints File (5/2/16) (5 pp)

Fingerprints can be visible (patent), impressed (plastic) or latent. Visible prints (patent) are left in a substance such as paint or blood, clearly visible.

Impressed (Plastic prints) are left in some kind of soft surface, such as putty or wet paint, and are also visible.

Latent prints are left in bodily oils and are not visible to the naked eye and require treatment to be visualized.

Types of Fingerprints
 
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Cool Cats said:
In Evidence: Edward Jacob Wagner
BCI Latent Prints File (5/2/16) (5 pp)

Fingerprints can be visible (patent), impressed (plastic) or latent. Visible prints (patent) are left in a substance such as paint or blood, clearly visible.

Impressed (Plastic prints) are left in some kind of soft surface, such as putty or wet paint, and are also visible.

Latent prints are left in bodily oils and are not visible to the naked eye and require treatment to be visualized.

Types of Fingerprints
Click to expand...

CC, I don't see anything for Jake. Only GW4. ? TIA
 
Betty P said:
If you look at the two separate document links MittenScarpetta posted above, one is for GW4, the other is for JakeW

Oops, link is gone, or maybe I saw it over at the Facebook link. Check there.

That link is gone, too.
Click to expand...

TY! I have both.
 
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