Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #106

[MistyWaters]

OK let us assume this was an undocumented worker from IN pork plant. Let us assume the worst - he is an undocumented alien, no DNA of his in any genetic database.

But - this fact is something the geneticists and LE would immediately see! The same Gedmatch has genetic 4-way analyzer, it would have told them if the DNA is from Mexico, Palestine or Eastern Europe. Peaches for Gedmatch... And the LE would change strategy again.

It has not happened. So I assume that while pork plant worker is possible, he is someone native to this country, probably, Caucasian, and more likely, from Western Europe (25% of "Croatian" or "Carpathian" in DNA would already guide the geneticists in a certain direction - and it will be away from Delphi). Very local. Could he migrate from MN? Yes, surely. From abroad? Likely, not.

Now, pork plant might have hired former felons, but their DNA should be in the database.

To me, the guy looks like a computer enthusiast, but I may be wrong.

Do we know a full sample of the suspect’s DNA was obtained so that geneticists were able to assist in the search for him? Aside from standard DNA collection from a crime scene, I don’t recall LE ever outrightly confirming they had a known sample from the killer.

If they did, in addition to Carter speaking out to the killer at the PC in hopes he had enough of a conscience to assumably provoke him into confessing.... if he had added the net was closing in through DNA genetics I think that would’ve afforded a powerful incentive but he didn’t mention anything about it.

I think LE believed they had his DNA prior to July/17, when the first sketch was released, but for whatever reason it had proved unhelpful in determining an identity. Early on, LE’s frequent comments regarding awaiting or receiving lab results was often interpreted to indicate an arrest was imminent.

This was a extremely vicious crime for a first-time murder. Either there was some type of personal vendetta behind it or he had already a history of violent crimes against strangers and/or young girls in his past. As more than 2 years have now passed, I’ve become less and less certain DNA is the key to solving this case. JMO

 

[LClapper]

Do we know a full sample of the suspect’s DNA was obtained so that geneticists were able to assist in the search for him? Aside from standard DNA collection from a crime scene, I don’t recall LE ever outrightly confirming they had a known sample from the killer.

If they did, in addition to Carter speaking out to the killer at the PC in hopes he had enough of a conscience to assumably provoke him into confessing.... if he had added the net was closing in through DNA genetics I think that would’ve afforded a powerful incentive but he didn’t mention anything about it.

I have not heard anything about having a known DNA sample from the killer but I'm always concerned that if they would announce that (be it truth or otherwise). It could put fear into the killer, to the point that they know it's only a matter of time before his whole world comes crashing down. My worry comes into play that some people couldn't handle the thought of this and everything coming to light and they commit suicide (in this situation, I am speaking of the killer, not friends/family/associates of his).

 

[MistyWaters]

There's no doubt in my mind that there are people know who recognize him. I wonder if the situation is like Ted Bundy, where at least two people called authorities to report that the sketch looked like him but the tips were buried in the mountain of calls.

The first sketch wasn’t released until five months later. Within the first week falling the murders 10000 people must’ve though they recognized this person based on the circumstances, the voice and/or photo. The dynamics involving LE working through that massive volume of tips on the basis of perceived identity alone is absolutely mind boggling IMO.

Feb. 22, 2017: Police reveal that German used her cellphone to record video and audio of the suspect. They release a snippet of audio of a man saying, “Down the hill,”hoping someone will recognize the voice. Indiana State Police Sgt. Tony Slocum says of the clue German left behind: “This young lady is a hero, there is no doubt. "To have enough presence of mind to activate that video system on her cellphone, to record what we believe is criminal behavior that's about to occur." The reward offered in the case hits $41,000. Investigators say briefings in the case have been shared twice with FBI Director James Comey and daily with Gov. Eric Holcomb. By the end of the week, investigators report that they’d received nearly 10,000 tips in the case.
Delphi murders: A timeline of the search for Abby and Libby's killer

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Do we know a full sample of the suspect’s DNA was obtained so that geneticists were able to assist in the search for him? Aside from standard DNA collection from a crime scene, I don’t recall LE ever outrightly confirming they had a known sample from the killer.

If they did, in addition to Carter speaking out to the killer at the PC in hopes he had enough of a conscience to assumably provoke him into confessing.... if he had added the net was closing in through DNA genetics I think that would’ve afforded a powerful incentive but he didn’t mention anything about it.

I think LE believed they had his DNA prior to July/17, when the first sketch was released, but for whatever reason it had proved unhelpful in determining an identity. Early on, LE’s frequent comments regarding awaiting or receiving lab results was often interpreted to indicate an arrest was imminent.

This was a extremely vicious crime for a first-time murder. Either there was some type of personal vendetta behind it or he had already a history of violent crimes against strangers and/or young girls in his past. As more than 2 years have now passed, I’ve become less and less certain DNA is the key to solving this case. JMO

I completely agree with this. To my knowledge LE has never said they have the killer’s DNA. They have danced all around it. Yes, they have said “we have DNA from the crime scene”. Of course they do, but never said it was the killer’s. Yes they have talked about Parabon and they’ve talked about familial DNA research. But they never said they have any of the killer’s DNA. Evidence has been sent to labs, doesn’t mean it was DNA. I think if they actually had the killer’s DNA we would have seen a Parabon sketch at the last press conference.
I hope I am absolutely wrong about this but I have heard nothing that tells me otherwise.
The good news is crimes were being solved every day before DNA came along. Just have to go find evidence elsewhere.

 

[Julia966]

It must be so frustrating for a small police department to consider that they've probably got his name but have no way to pluck it out of the huge amount of information that's been called in.

 

[MistyWaters]

I have not heard anything about having a known DNA sample from the killer but I'm always concerned that if they would announce that (be it truth or otherwise). It could put fear into the killer, to the point that they know it's only a matter of time before his whole world comes crashing down. My worry comes into play that some people couldn't handle the thought of this and everything coming to light and they commit suicide (in this situation, I am speaking of the killer, not friends/family/associates of his).

I don’t know but it’s a dicey path either way because with any unsolved homicide there’s also the potential for the killer to murder again and take other innocent lives. A PC attempting to appeal directly to the killer has to be somewhat of a last resort when all other internal investigative avenues have already been exhausted.

But you make a valid point - the general public seeks additional news about happenings, investigative progress reports and explanations of what we don’t quite understand but while the killer is still out there, that sort of information is probably also useful to him in evading arrest.

 

[MistyWaters]

It must be so frustrating for a small police department to consider that they've probably got his name but have no way to pluck it out of the huge amount of information that's been called in.

Early on the volume of tips was so heavy iirc officers from neighbouring detachments were also called in to temporarily assist. I wonder if time constraints, an unmanageable workload, or maybe even inexperience prevented the right questions from always being asked.

In the recent seemingly scrambled quotes from Sgt Riley I think these two sentences refer to a previous but specific tip very early where incomplete information might’ve been obtained. It may also connect with the reason why Carter asked that anyone who knew who parked at the old COS/DCS/Welfare building between noon to 5pm to please contact officers at the Delphi Command Post.

“The person apparently gave the investigating officers the information they were looking for. We have to try to go back and check on the information that we have received."...”
ISP on Delphi killer: 'Somebody may have already interviewed him'

 

[MistyWaters]

I completely agree with this. To my knowledge LE has never said they have the killer’s DNA. They have danced all around it. Yes, they have said “we have DNA from the crime scene”. Of course they do, but never said it was the killer’s. Yes they have talked about Parabon and they’ve talked about familial DNA research. But they never said they have any of the killer’s DNA. Evidence has been sent to labs, doesn’t mean it was DNA. I think if they actually had the killer’s DNA we would have seen a Parabon sketch at the last press conference.
I hope I am absolutely wrong about this but I have heard nothing that tells me otherwise.
The good news is crimes were being solved every day before DNA came along. Just have to go find evidence elsewhere.

I agree, a year ago the media even approached investigators regarding familial DNA searching. Here’s an excellent example of LE evasiveness!

BBM

June, 2018
“Recently asked about familial DNA searches and the homicide investigation into German and Williams' death, Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said, “Obviously the answer hasn‘t come to the surface, yet.”
Familial DNA search might unlock Delphi killer's identity

 

[SeattleStew]

@MistyWaters Yep. That quote is from an interview last month, May 7, with WLFI news. The full quote is:

"Somebody may have already interviewed him," said Riley. "I'm not going to say they have or have not, but there's a possibility that has happened. The person apparently gave the investigating officers the information they were looking for. We have to try to go back and check on the information that we have received."

I also focused in on this part:

"We're still looking for the car that was parked in the lot," Riley told News 18. "If somebody can give us that information, we want that information as quickly as possible."

The importance of the car also ties into why police now believe the killer is local. Riley said after reviewing many tips, investigators determined he was able to get around quickly on the day the girls were killed, and seemed to know the area.

ISP on Delphi killer: 'Somebody may have already interviewed him'

 

[susiQ]

Do we know a full sample of the suspect’s DNA was obtained so that geneticists were able to assist in the search for him? Aside from standard DNA collection from a crime scene, I don’t recall LE ever outrightly confirming they had a known sample from the killer.

If they did, in addition to Carter speaking out to the killer at the PC in hopes he had enough of a conscience to assumably provoke him into confessing.... if he had added the net was closing in through DNA genetics I think that would’ve afforded a powerful incentive but he didn’t mention anything about it.

I think LE believed they had his DNA prior to July/17, when the first sketch was released, but for whatever reason it had proved unhelpful in determining an identity. Early on, LE’s frequent comments regarding awaiting or receiving lab results was often interpreted to indicate an arrest was imminent.

This was a extremely vicious crime for a first-time murder. Either there was some type of personal vendetta behind it or he had already a history of violent crimes against strangers and/or young girls in his past. As more than 2 years have now passed, I’ve become less and less certain DNA is the key to solving this case. JMO

Exactly, where I'm at.

 

[wary]

I completely agree with this. To my knowledge LE has never said they have the killer’s DNA. They have danced all around it. Yes, they have said “we have DNA from the crime scene”. Of course they do, but never said it was the killer’s. Yes they have talked about Parabon and they’ve talked about familial DNA research. But they never said they have any of the killer’s DNA. Evidence has been sent to labs, doesn’t mean it was DNA. I think if they actually had the killer’s DNA we would have seen a Parabon sketch at the last press conference.
I hope I am absolutely wrong about this but I have heard nothing that tells me otherwise.
The good news is crimes were being solved every day before DNA came along. Just have to go find evidence elsewhere.

I think that Parabon sketches are amazingly good when LE has no idea what someone looks like. But I suspect that they aren’t worth all that much, when LE already has witness descriptions.

 

[MistyWaters]

@MistyWaters Yep. That quote is from an interview last month, May 7, with WLFI news. The full quote is:

"Somebody may have already interviewed him," said Riley. "I'm not going to say they have or have not, but there's a possibility that has happened. The person apparently gave the investigating officers the information they were looking for. We have to try to go back and check on the information that we have received."

I also focused in on this part:

"We're still looking for the car that was parked in the lot," Riley told News 18. "If somebody can give us that information, we want that information as quickly as possible."

The importance of the car also ties into why police now believe the killer is local. Riley said after reviewing many tips, investigators determined he was able to get around quickly on the day the girls were killed, and seemed to know the area.

ISP on Delphi killer: 'Somebody may have already interviewed him'

Exactly. And from your quote, although LE doesn’t say why the car or its driver “ties in” but as a result of also reviewing many tips, they’ve come to believe the killer seemed to know the area.

The importance of the car also ties into why police now believe the killer is local. Riley said after reviewing many tips, investigators determined he was able to get around quickly on the day the girls were killed, and seemed to know the area.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think that Parabon sketches are amazingly good when LE has no idea what someone looks like. But I suspect that they aren’t worth all that much, when LE already has witness descriptions.

It also appears the other issue of analysis via genetic research is headed to the US Supreme Court for a legal ruling over its legality.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/alexandria-rape-suspect-challenging-dna-search-used-to-crack-case/2019/06/10/24bd0e34-87a5-11e9-a870-b9c411dc4312_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.16635e39647
“Attorneys for Bjerke, 37, are now seeking to have the DNA evidence thrown out of court, arguing that assembling and testing a genetic profile without a warrant violates the Constitution.”

 

[Jealoushe]

I was listening to a podcast about athe Yosmite murders, and the guy who killed two girls and the mother in a hotel. He explained how when the one girl wouldn't stop crying after the mother was killed, she was ruining his fantasy, so he took her into the bathroom and killed her also, while the other girl (her sister) was in the main room. Then he assaulter her, and she stayed quiet and complacent trying to survive.

It reminded me of this case. How the questions about how quickley the girls were killed, it is possible the killer had a certain fantasy in his mind, but when the girls didn't act the way he was hoping they would, he raged and killed them right away.

I've been listening to a lot of pod casts lately, and sometimes I feel that hearing the stories of these other killers, their motives, their actions, their upbringing, can open your mind to think of other things that might be happening. Maybe get your thoughts outside the box, or reminders of other cases. Hopefully the investigators are looking at other cases, even if unrelated. To see if anything helps think of a new direction to go, to find this killer.

 

[TheVisual]

I think this was one of the mistakes they made early on, among others I'm thinking. If the crime called for an arrest, they could have delayed it, so as not to embroil the investigation in rumours right from the get go.

Not long ago in a small city close to us a child went "missing'. Outcome was the child was found, just wandered off. In the course of searching, LE went to every home in the area and requested to search the property. Our friend said, "by all means, but you're going to find some MJ plants in pots on the back deck." LE response, "No worries, that's not what we're here for." Just sayin'.

This happened near my hometown. They checked every house near her home but didn't find her. Three doors down from her home she was found in the attic, bound, but they didn't find her for days. Thank heavens, still alive.

 

[wary]

It also appears the other issue of analysis via genetic research is headed to the US Supreme Court for a legal ruling over its legality.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/alexandria-rape-suspect-challenging-dna-search-used-to-crack-case/2019/06/10/24bd0e34-87a5-11e9- a870-b9c411dc4312_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.16635e39647
“Attorneys for Bjerke, 37, are now seeking to have the DNA evidence thrown out of court, arguing that assembling and testing a genetic profile without a warrant violates the Constitution.”

I hope that the courts draw an analogy to other things that don’t require a warrant. You leave your fingerprints at the scene of a crime—tough luck. You get photographed by a security camera—you can’t claim that you never gave permission for the camera to take your picture. I know none of these things are the same, but there are similarities.

They need a warrant to take DNA directly from a suspect—but they don’t, to take it from the scene of the crime. And I believe that high courts have already ruled that LE can take something you’ve discarded and test it for DNA.

So—I wonder if genetic genealogy actually is much different from old-school police work, where you combine crime-scene evidence, tips, and end up with possible suspects.

 

[wary]

I think this was one of the mistakes they made early on, among others I'm thinking. If the crime called for an arrest, they could have delayed it, so as not to embroil the investigation in rumours right from the get go.

Not long ago in a small city close to us a child went "missing'. Outcome was the child was found, just wandered off. In the course of searching, LE went to every home in the area and requested to search the property. Our friend said, "by all means, but you're going to find some MJ plants in pots on the back deck." LE response, "No worries, that's not what we're here for." Just sayin'.

Right, and that’s the attitude they should have taken. In Abby and Libby’s case, I’ve felt that LE showed an appalling lack of seriousness of purpose, in bragging about the arrests for various petty-ante crimes that they were making.

 

[susiQ]

This happened near my hometown. They checked every house near her home but didn't find her. Three doors down from her home she was found in the attic, bound, but they didn't find her for days. Thank heavens, still alive.

I don't think we're talking about the same event.

eta: Sorry, I think I misunderstood. You were relaying a different event that was similar but VERY different as well.

 

[Cutiekitty]

@MistyWaters Yep. That quote is from an interview last month, May 7, with WLFI news. The full quote is:

"Somebody may have already interviewed him," said Riley. "I'm not going to say they have or have not, but there's a possibility that has happened. The person apparently gave the investigating officers the information they were looking for. We have to try to go back and check on the information that we have received."

I also focused in on this part:

"We're still looking for the car that was parked in the lot," Riley told News 18. "If somebody can give us that information, we want that information as quickly as possible."

The importance of the car also ties into why police now believe the killer is local. Riley said after reviewing many tips, investigators determined he was able to get around quickly on the day the girls were killed, and seemed to know the area.

ISP on Delphi killer: 'Somebody may have already interviewed him'

BBM - I think they looked back and saw they received multiple tips related to the same person/vehicle and for some reason dismissed it. I’m not saying an avalanche, but definitely more than one. I think LE has someone they are looking at hard.

The article references a vehicle so I don’t think getting around quickly is in reference to the events at the trail unless they are thinking he picked them up either under the bridge or somewhere else near the trail.

How could they determine he got around quickly the day the girls were killed if they don’t know who he is. How would you determine an unknown person’s mobility? I’m sleepy today and not sure if I make sense.

 

[MistyWaters]

Right, and that’s the attitude they should have taken. In Abby and Libby’s case, I’ve felt that LE showed an appalling lack of seriousness of purpose, in bragging about the arrests for various petty-ante crimes that they were making.

Yes I also think LE got somewhat got caught up in all the media attention at the beginning. Not that it should’ve been prevented because it’s necessary in a high profile case especially made so by a substantial reward as an incentive to obtain tips.

But also falling within the category of lack of seriousness of purpose I’d place the constant reference to the increasingly large number of tips received to date in one breath — while still continuing to ask for more, by vague reference to that “one tip”, which tends to minimize the value of any and all tips already provided. If someone had already offered a tip and subsequently learned or remembered additional incriminating details I hope they’d feel confident their information would be valued by LE, as opposed to believing the person they’d previously tipped on had already been investigated and cleared.