CA - Off Duty Police Officer shoots man and parents after altercation in Costco, Corona, June 2019

[apricotpeach]

I am not sure what difference would it make if he said he was a cop or not? He was off duty at the time.

I was just wondering in terms of what the cop said or did before he started shooting. For example, there's a difference between he stood up, held up the gun, said "I'm an officer - freeze", and KF still approached him vs he stood up and started shooting without saying anything, in which case people may think he is a civilian with a gun. [ETA - I don't know if the cop stood up or not; I'm just theorizing].

I feel that officers should be trained to de-escalate situations and they shouldn't fire without having a clear shot at the intended target (if the parents of KF are trying to intervene and are shielding him, I would say stop shooting). If the opinion is that these concepts don't apply to an off-duty cop because he's off-duty, well, then he should be considered a civilian and be treated as a civilian who fired his gun in a store.

 

[jjenny]

I do believe the account that says the officer was struck from behind, in the head. It must’ve been a pretty strong blow to the head to cause him to fall down “hard, looking like he was having a heart attack” (per an eyewitness).
Costco Shooting Leaves Family of Man Killed by Off-Duty Officer Demanding Answers

Family's lawyer says he was shoved/pushed in the back. Regardless, doesn't appear there were any arguments prior to him being shoved/pushed. So if father was trying to explain his son had mental issues, that presumably would have been after the cop fell.

 

[mickey2942]

Either way, even if Mr. French knocked officer Sanchez down, the response with lethal force seems excessive.

If this was not a police officer, would anyone think that this response was okay?

It sounds to me, like Officer Sanchez was angry, and responded with anger, not in fear of his life. I don't like the implication that because of his "training" he responded to a "threat". If that is the logic, then police officers need different training. We need officers who react with common sense, not blazing guns, when there are no other weapons in sight.

 

[Jessthinkin]

Respectfully, there are multiple officer involved shootings where the issues of the person is known. In this instance the father of the dead man was telling the shooter that his son had mental illness. There is always time to deescalate if you know a person has issues as long as they are not harming someone else--- you can take a breath and begin to think. Grant it, someone may not be able to be calmed and may become a danger to others or the officers. There have been families who called 911 for help and saw/heard their loved one killed when officers rushed in. It is time for some new training.

I work with people with mental illness and have been in numerous hairy situations that could have escalated. I know how hard it is to de-escalate. But for people with mental illness or intellectual disabilities, they cannot think as fast or nimbly as needed for an officer's split second reaction to their illness. IMO.

It’s especially hard to protect mentally ill people if, as reported, they launch an unprovoked physical attack to the back of someone’s head. I’ll be very curious to see the video following the point at which the off duty officer stood up. It should prove very telling.

 

[jjenny]

It’s especially hard to protect mentally ill people if, as reported, they launch an unprovoked physical attack to the back of someone’s head. I’ll be very curious to see the video following the point at which the off duty officer stood up. It should prove very telling.

I am not even sure Mr. French was trying to attack the cop. Maybe Mr. French was thinking that cop was taking too long a time at the samples table and wanted him out of the way, and that was the reason he shoved him. He supposedly had a mentality of a much younger person than his actual age.
Otherwise, I agree, description of what happened after the cop stood up is missing and that would be pivotal to his claims of self-defense.

 

[Reasonable & Just]

i think you are confusing victim and perp.

Bullets travel much farther than a slap or other hand strike. The bullets are more dangerous to more people in this situation.

 

[kaen]

It’s especially hard to protect mentally ill people if, as reported, they launch an unprovoked physical attack to the back of someone’s head. I’ll be very curious to see the video following the point at which the off duty officer stood up. It should prove very telling.

Except the family's lawyer reported that the victim's father began to explain his son's mental illness before the shooter shot 6-7 times. That is the difference. It is very hard not to retaliate after you have an adrenaline rush from an assault. However, as a member of LE we should expect that this man was trained to keep his emotions in check, otherwise he should not be able to carry a gun. LE (I have many in my family) must be able to assess and reassess throughout an encounter. If, indeed, this father was speaking to this officer as he shot, then he has an effectiveness problem that can affect others in the field.

 

[fannneee]

Costco shooting: Man killed after an alleged argument and attack on an off-duty officer was nonverbal, cousin says - CNN

"Corona police Lt. Jeff Edwards told reporters just after the incident that police believe the shooting resulted from an argument.
"From my understanding, from some people we talked to, there was apparently an argument inside," Edwards said. "Some type of argument and ensued into a gun shot.""

 

[Jessthinkin]

Except the family's lawyer reported that the victim's father began to explain his son's mental illness before the shooter shot 6-7 times. That is the difference. It is very hard not to retaliate after you have an adrenaline rush from an assault. However, as a member of LE we should expect that this man was trained to keep his emotions in check, otherwise he should not be able to carry a gun. LE (I have many in my family) must be able to assess and reassess throughout an encounter. If, indeed, this father was speaking to this officer as he shot, then he has an effectiveness problem that can affect others in the field.

The trouble with the information being provided at this point is that the bulk of it is from lawyers for either side. Not paid to be neutral. Eyewitness testimony is better, video will be even better. Of course this case is very troubling to me, and deescalation should ALWAYS be the first course of action, I’m just saying the exact particulars of this confrontation have yet to be fully determined.

 

[Jessthinkin]

Bullets travel much farther than a slap or other hand strike. The bullets are more dangerous to more people in this situation.

As far as I know, only the French’s lawyer has characterized the attack as a slap or hand strike. An eyewitness said the off duty officer fell down hard, and appeared to be having a heart attack. That doesn’t seem to correlate with merely receiving a slap or hand strike.

 

[jjenny]

Except the family's lawyer reported that the victim's father began to explain his son's mental illness before the shooter shot 6-7 times. That is the difference. It is very hard not to retaliate after you have an adrenaline rush from an assault. However, as a member of LE we should expect that this man was trained to keep his emotions in check, otherwise he should not be able to carry a gun. LE (I have many in my family) must be able to assess and reassess throughout an encounter. If, indeed, this father was speaking to this officer as he shot, then he has an effectiveness problem that can affect others in the field.

Cop has to use reasonable force in self-defense in California. If he was shoved/pushed and fell down as a result, after he got up, what danger was he at that point? What was Mr. French doing, how far away was he from the cop? Why were the parents shot, as far as we know, parents haven't attacked the cop in any way.

 

[jjenny]

As far as I know, only the French’s lawyer has characterized the attack as a slap or hand strike. An eyewitness said the off duty officer fell down hard, and appeared to be having a heart attack. That doesn’t seem to correlate with merely receiving a slap or hand strike.

Mr. French was a big guy, if he pushed someone, I don't see why that someone couldn't fall down. Anyhow that should be on video.

 

[Reasonable & Just]

As far as I know, only the French’s lawyer has characterized the attack as a slap or hand strike. An eyewitness said the off duty officer fell down hard, and appeared to be having a heart attack. That doesn’t seem to correlate with merely receiving a slap or hand strike.

By hand strike, I meant a strike with the hand. Could have been a punch, slap, whatever. So far, no indication of a weapon. And even if this large man hit the shooter with force, or hit him in the head, it is still less dangerous to a crowd than the shooter's 6-7 bullets. That was my point, to clarify.

 

[Jessthinkin]

I am not even sure Mr. French was trying to attack the cop. Maybe Mr. French was thinking that cop was taking too long a time at the samples table and wanted him out of the way, and that was the reason he shoved him. He supposedly had a mentality of a much younger person than his actual age.
Otherwise, I agree, description of what happened after the cop stood up is missing and that would be pivotal to his claims of self-defense.

Only the French’s lawyer is describing the attack as a shove or slap, as far as I know. (Do you have a link to another source saying it was only a shove or a slap?) It being a mere slap or shove seems highly unlikely, but the video should make all this clear. It’d be great if we could see it soon...

 

[Reasonable & Just]

I wonder, from the NYT witness description, if Mr. French's aggression triggered PTSD in the shooter. The strike may have been very hard, but maybe the physical blow wasn't what caused the "heart attack" appearance.

I don't think it was simple rage on the shooter's part, although rage was likely in the mix. It also doesn't sound like he cried for help before opening fire, based on this account (but maybe there's more to come).

 

[kaen]

The trouble with the information being provided at this point is that the bulk of it is from lawyers for either side. Not paid to be neutral. Eyewitness testimony is better, video will be even better. Of course this case is very troubling to me, and deescalation should ALWAYS be the first course of action, I’m just saying the exact particulars of this confrontation have yet to be fully determined.

The woman interviewed in the NYTimes article says the shooter fell with a loud thud (she thought he had a heart attack), got up, took out his gun, and started shooting. I am sure it is not as neat and clean as that but her eyewitness testimony for 10 feet away is pretty convincing.

Edited: I forgot a comma.

 

[Jessthinkin]

By hand strike, I meant a strike with the hand. Could have been a punch, slap, whatever. So far, no indication of a weapon. And even if this large man hit the shooter with force, or hit him in the head, it is still less dangerous to a crowd than the shooter's 6-7 bullets. That was my point, to clarify.

I completely agree. I live in a neighboring city to this incident, and when I went to my local Costco yesterday I couldn’t help but consider where I would hide if I needed to. Bullets easily pierce glass cases, metal freezers, and pretty much anything I looked at in the store. To be shooting in such a crowded place feels very reckless indeed. Could he have been dazed/not reacting normally from having been knocked to the ground/head-injured? Or is he an aggressive hothead? I’ll follow this case closely to draw conclusions based on the evidence that emerges, not on what the opposing lawyers say. This I can say with certainty, though: what an utter tragedy.

 

[Reasonable & Just]

Witness also didn't mention the baby. I'm sure she would have mentioned a baby falling to the ground with dad. So I guess he wasn't actually holding his baby (thank goodness).

 

[jjenny]

I completely agree. I live in a neighboring city to this incident, and when I went to my local Costco yesterday I couldn’t help but consider where I would hide if I needed to. Bullets easily pierce glass cases, metal freezers, and pretty much anything I looked at in the store. To be shooting in such a crowded place feels very reckless indeed. Could he have been dazed/not reacting normally from having been knocked to the ground/head-injured? Or is he an aggressive hothead? I’ll follow this case closely to draw conclusions based on the evidence that emerges, not on what the opposing lawyers say. This I can say with certainty, though: what an utter tragedy.

Well he was taken to the hospital and released, described as only having minor injuries. If he had a serious head injury, I don't think it would have been described as him having minor injuries.

 

[jjenny]

Witness also didn't mention the baby. I'm sure she would have mentioned a baby falling to the ground with dad. So I guess he wasn't actually holding his baby (thank goodness).

Well, I wouldn't count that this witness saw everything, considering she believed the cop fell because he had a heart attack, so she apparently did not even see an initial shove/push, whatever it was.