Abuse and JonBenet

[Solace]

Solace,

No I do not think you are wrong? Its possible JonBenet's toilet problem was independent from her death, but with other abuse indicators and remarks by Coroner Meyer regarding her enlarged hymen then her toilet problems may be linked to something else? Knowing whether the underwear was washed and soiled or just plain soiled would help.



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UK, yes it would. I realize that many may consider Linda Hoffman Pugh unreliable but she did say that she would hear Patsy yelling at Jon Benet in the bathroom all the time and Jon Benet would be yelling and crying. I am sure it was a constant problem; well obviously it was if she had chronic infections and that was in JonBenet's doctor's report that the mother sought help for bedwetting.

She could have just been a child who had everything done for her and she was not budging on this. I saw an interesting show on the "Iceman' last night - the 5000+ year old frozen man found). At the end of the show, one of the forensics says we really need to do an autopsy because we can never fully know what is going on without examining all the evidence and we cannot do that without an autopsy. And I thought of JonBenet. They need to do an autopsy for several reasons and it is not going to happen. At the very least, we could put the stun gun theory to rest.

On another subject, but involved in this, I just do not feel that Berke knows anything about this. I think it was strictly Patsy and John, imo. He just did not seem that disturbed from all of this at the time. There are children that do not ask any questions. It amazes me, but they do not. They just go along. I just feel that is what Berke is doing. But I am not sure he knows anything.

 

[UKGuy]

UK, yes it would. I realize that many may consider Linda Hoffman Pugh unreliable but she did say that she would hear Patsy yelling at Jon Benet in the bathroom all the time and Jon Benet would be yelling and crying. I am sure it was a constant problem; well obviously it was if she had chronic infections and that was in JonBenet's doctor's report that the mother sought help for bedwetting.

She could have just been a child who had everything done for her and she was not budging on this. I saw an interesting show on the "Iceman' last night - the 5000+ year old frozen man found). At the end of the show, one of the forensics says we really need to do an autopsy because we can never fully know what is going on without examining all the evidence and we cannot do that without an autopsy. And I thought of JonBenet. They need to do an autopsy for several reasons and it is not going to happen. At the very least, we could put the stun gun theory to rest.

On another subject, but involved in this, I just do not feel that Berke knows anything about this. I think it was strictly Patsy and John, imo. He just did not seem that disturbed from all of this at the time. There are children that do not ask any questions. It amazes me, but they do not. They just go along. I just feel that is what Berke is doing. But I am not sure he knows anything.

Solace,

Yes it was not an entirely unknown issue, Fleet White had helped JonBenet with her toilet on occassion, but the implication arising from the accompanying evidence is that her soiled underwear may be a consequence rather than something separate?

Burke will know something, he will be loyal to his family, particularly his father. If JR says dont talk about X or Y, it will just cause a media furore, he will do this. Look how fast he went to ground as the Karr story broke. I'm not suggesting Burke caused his sisters death, only that as a resident he will be party to lots of stuff we will never know, bear in mind he was there just before JonBenet was killed, he knows what the sequence of events were, if he sipped tea and how JonBenet snacked pineapple, if Patsy served them etc.

He knows stuff we can only speculate about!



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[Solace]

Solace,

It Yes it was not an entirely unknown issue, Fleet White had helped JonBenet with her toilet on occassion, but the implication arising from the accompanying evidence is that her soiled underwear may be a consequence rather than something separate?

Burke will know something, he will be loyal to his family, particularly his father. If JR says dont talk about X or Y, it will just cause a media furore, he will do this. Look how fast he went to ground as the Karr story broke. I'm not suggesting Burke caused his sisters death, only that as a resident he will be party to lots of stuff we will never know, bear in mind he was there just before JonBenet was killed, he knows what the sequence of events were, if he sipped tea and how JonBenet snacked pineapple, if Patsy served them etc.

He knows stuff we can only speculate about!



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UK, I am embarrassed to admit that I conveniently forgot about the pineapple and his glass of tea next to the pineapple. He has to know if she walked into the house that night or was asleep. Since there was pineapple in her stomach and his glass was next to the pineapple, you are right once again UK. He does know more than he is saying.

Am I right about his saying that she walked into the house that night, then changed the story. I know that John did, but I thought Berke also said she walked in.

 

[coloradokares]

I don't know that she was hiding anything. They were probably stained underwear that had been washed but stained nonetheless. I cannot see her hiding things in plain sight.

Solace I had a niece who had been abused in that way by her dad . It was one of the signs her mother was told to look for.... I know it sounds really.....odd..... That and the toileting issues. Her Dad had been molesting her. He has served his time. To this day this child ( now entering adulthood ) has lots of issues. Its such a repugnant thing to even think on but the reality of it is there is a core psycology behind the bedwetting and defecation issues. Hiding the undies etc.

 

[UKGuy]

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UK, I am embarrassed to admit that I conveniently forgot about the pineapple and his glass of tea next to the pineapple. He has to know if she walked into the house that night or was asleep. Since there was pineapple in her stomach and his glass was next to the pineapple, you are right once again UK. He does know more than he is saying.

Am I right about his saying that she walked into the house that night, then changed the story. I know that John did, but I thought Berke also said she walked in.

Solace,

I forget stuff too, so its not a big deal. I think Burke stated that JonBenet walked in front of him into the house, but the parents changed their original version of events.



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[Solace]

Solace,

I forget stuff too, so its not a big deal. I think Burke stated that JonBenet walked in front of him into the house, but the parents changed their original version of events.



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According to Steve Thomas, he did say JonBenet walked into the house when they arrived home - when he was interviewed a year after her death. Whether he saw her eating pineapple is open to speculation. He did drink some tea in the kitchen and left the glass next to the pineapple. Why do you think they were so adamant that she did not eat the pineapple? I'm thinking they just do not want her "up" at that time. There would be too much explaining about what she did, etc. So they are saying they just put her to bed, end of story. The less they say, the better for them.

 

[UKGuy]

According to Steve Thomas, he did say JonBenet walked into the house when they arrived home - when he was interviewed a year after her death. Whether he saw her eating pineapple is open to speculation. He did drink some tea in the kitchen and left the glass next to the pineapple. Why do you think they were so adamant that she did not eat the pineapple? I'm thinking they just do not want her "up" at that time. There would be too much explaining about what she did, etc. So they are saying they just put her to bed, end of story. The less they say, the better for them.

Solace,

The less they say, the better for them.

Yes and likely the reason why there was never a trial, there was no smoking gun, and putting spouses on trial backed up with good attorneys was too big a chance to take for the risk averse DA.

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[BBB167893]

Did any of you see the report by Julie Hayden? She interviewd the sexual abuse team investigator who was mysteriously pulled off the case early on. There was definite indication of sexual abuse prior to the night of the murder. Also I knew this report was coming in advance of it. I got to have a little discussion with Julie knowing this was coming. Holly Smith I believe was her name. Great special report. As I say things are not quiet in and around Boulder. As you can smell the fresh scent of rain in the air. We are waiting for the sound of the thunder. Questions are being raised all over the place. This could mean this case is about to break open. Also this could just be because of the 10 year anniversary coming up.

I read it! Notice the Rams won't touch it! Can't think why!

 

[coloradokares]

I read it! Notice the Rams won't touch it! Can't think why!

I am glad you read it.

 

[narlacat]

I'm glad you guys read it and told us about it.

 

[calicocat]

The more I read about this case, the more upset I become. Here we are, a group of Websleuths, who are more committed to finding out what happened to JonBenet than her own parents were or ever will be. I am tortured by the fact that this small child, a beautiful gift, was abused, beaten, strangled, and her life discarded like a piece of trash. I've read all I can read, I've drawn my own conclusions, and now I am shifting my energy toward praying for this little girl so that someday the Ramsey's will come forward and admit their guilt.

One summer in Charlevois, JonBenet was standing on the dock barefoot. Worried that she might get a splinter, Pam ran after her. "You need to put shoes on," she told JonBenet. "I don't want to," the child answered. "I want to feel the earth's life under my feet."

Rest in peace, JonBenet.

 

[coloradokares]

I'm glad you guys read it and told us about it.

If I ever have another heads up rest assured I'll share!! I plan there will be a few.

 

[GoodAim]

Is it possible that if there were any fingernail marks around JB's neck, they weren't from JB struggling against being strangled, but from the PERPETRATOR realizing JB was still alive and frantically trying to remove it/undo it? From what I've heard of PR's personality, I could easily visualize this.

 

[Solace]

Is it possible that if there were any fingernail marks around JB's neck, they weren't from JB struggling against being strangled, but from the PERPETRATOR realizing JB was still alive and frantically trying to remove it/undo it? From what I've heard of PR's personality, I could easily visualize this.

GoodAim,

I do not think so. She was supposed to die and she did.

 

[GoodAim]

Solace, you're probably right that with such a brutal assault the killer meant for her to die.

Three odd thoughts:

- You know, those loose ties found around her wrists... In the crime scene photos of her own bed I noticed that one of the drapery ties on the window behind her bed was untied and hanging down, whereas on the twin bed next to hers the drapes were tied in neat bows. I wonder if when she'd sit on her bed it would be an idle habit to play with the drapery tie. Wind it around things. Could a "game" have started in her bed and moved elsewhere? Or, maybe whoever tied her wrists loosely got the image from seeing her play with the drapery tie. Or, although it obviously wasn't ripped out of the wall, could JB have grabbed it as someone was lifting her out of bed -- to go to the bathroom, while having a tantrum, or whatever?

- For Burke to have apparently slept through any possible yelling, he must have been very used to all the yelling that reportedly took place with JB and PR.

- If in the enhanced recording of the 911 call, Burke says, "Please, what do I do?", could it be that's he's been lying in bed pretending to sleep and listening to his parents running around, staging things, very busy... He wants to help with whatever all the fuss is and asks what he can do? I had always interpreted his comment differently, like he's asking for direction as to whether to stay there or go back to his room...

Now I'll wait to hear why these thoughts are ridiculous or beside the point...

 

[calicocat]

I wonder if he's saying, "Please, what did I do?" And Patsy later saying, "We didn't mean for this to happen." It sure sounds accidental to me.

 

[DeeDee249]

BR's voice on that enhanced tape has been reported as saying either
Please, what do I do?
Please, what did I do
Please, what did you find?

When I listen to the tape, I can't for the life of me figure it out.

 

[quarterhorse_trainer]

Eagle1, you've often pointed out that if he was molesting her, she wouldn't have been so sad when he was gone. I've given that a lot of thought. I was reading my encyclopedia of true crime and I came across a few cases where daughters who were molested by their fathers got to like it, horrible as that sounds. I swear I'm not making it up. After all, good or bad, there's no bond like the one between a father and a daughter. (Again, I'm speaking purely hypothetically!) Maybe that was a perverted version of "father-daughter" quality time. It's not that unthinkable.

To be perfectly honest, I can't figure John in this. Patsy is a raging storm, but him? He's an unfathomable black hole.

Hi! This is my first post on WS. This thought above struck me because I had a very close friend that is now deceased, that had an inappropriate relationship with her father for many years. She also confided that she "liked it". That bothered her and was a dark demon that caused sustance abuse and was factor in her untimely death. I tried to convince her that a child is NEVER at fault for abuse pertetrated by a parent. She believed it at some level, but internally she always felt at fault.

 

[BBB167893]

Hi! This is my first post on WS. This thought above struck me because I had a very close friend that is now deceased, that had an inappropriate relationship with her father for many years. She also confided that she "liked it". That bothered her and was a dark demon that caused sustance abuse and was factor in her untimely death. I tried to convince her that a child is NEVER at fault for abuse pertetrated by a parent. She believed it at some level, but internally she always felt at fault.

Welcome, QT. That's an awful story, and all too common.

 

[DeeDee249]

Mackenzie Phillips recent (and shocking) revelation about her own consensual sexual relationship with her father "Papa" John Phillips, is also insightful. Abuse like that is so damaging to a child, and even as that child becomes an adult, it is always a part of the child. You're right in that many abused kids accept it as "normal", even loving, especially a very young one. In Phillip's case, she was old enough (12 or so?) to know it was not an appropriate relationship, but by that age was already using drugs (with he dad, too) and her judgement was clouded.
Kids pay their whole lives for abuse like that.