CA - Off Duty Police Officer shoots man and parents after altercation in Costco, Corona, June 2019

[apricotpeach]

How absolutely terrifying to run to an “EXIT” door if you were trying to escape during a shooting and IT WON’T OPEN!! Everyone would run to find another “EXIT” door, nobody would stand around and hope it would open

I've seen pictures of some Costco emergency exit doors (not this particular store) and there are signs that state there is a 15 second delay. So hopefully people wouldn't run in search of a different door. (I don't think I've actually gone to the edges of a Costco store so I don't know if the sign is standard or not - it certainly should be!). I did see reports that people hurt their arms or hands trying to force the doors open, so it makes me wonder if the signs were not there or if they were unclear.

I wonder if there is a mechanism for the store to disable the delay, like if there was a fire emergency. Of course, that would require someone to disable it and that would take some time (a luxury people likely wouldn't have in an emergency).

 

[mickey2942]

Moreover, his lawyer claims he lost consciousness. Then eventually got up and started shooting (this is according to witness).

Of course, lawyers are known for their integrity, ethics, and honesty. A lawyer would never slant the facts for the benefit of a client. Lawyers are the absolute bastions of truth, honor and justice for all.

 

[wary]

Moreover, his lawyer claims he lost consciousness. Then eventually got up and started shooting (this is according to witness).

Well, I’m sort of skeptical of anything his lawyer says. And I have an uneasy feeling that the video is going to be remarkably unsatisfactory, in terms of showing us what actually happened.

In the abstract, I don’t trust witnesses either—but let’s hope that there’s enough of them that we can figure out what happened.

 

[RANCH]

So guessing is o'key?

Sure it is. I'm just not going to use guess's to come to a conclusion in this case.

You can come to any conclusion you want based on anything you want to use. JMO

 

[drama_farmer]

If this had been a car accident, and Mr. French had hit SS's car, with his wife and child in the car, potentially harming his family, by your "logic", it would have been an acceptable response to get out of the car, and shoot Mr. French and his parents for endangering SS's family.

I believe that SS's response to being shoved, pushed, whatever was a relex of anger and rage.

Add, perhaps "embarrassment" to the anger and rage. I came up with the same car accident metaphor as well. Based on what little we know about the objective facts of the case, I'm assuming the shooter was quite close to the victims. It doesn't say much about his training if he accidentally shot others while firing at close range. IMO MOO

 

[RANCH]

Well, I’m sort of skeptical of anything his lawyer says. And I have an uneasy feeling that the video is going to be remarkably unsatisfactory, in terms of showing us what actually happened.

In the abstract, I don’t trust witnesses either—but let’s hope that there’s enough of them that we can figure out what happened.

You could be right.

I wouldn't be surprised if after video and other information is made public there is still a disagreement of what happened and if the officer acted in a legal manner or not. JMO

 

[RANCH]

Maybe I’ve just been lucky, but in my life, I’ve never even had someone bump into me in a way that seriously startled me, let alone knocked me off my feet. Just how common is it?

I've bumped into and have been bumped into by people numerous times in my life and never has anyone fallen to the ground.

It would take more than a bump or slap to the back to send a healthy individual to the ground IMO.

 

[RANCH]

Add, perhaps "embarrassment" to the anger and rage. I came up with the same car accident metaphor as well. Based on what little we know about the objective facts of the case, I'm assuming the shooter was quite close to the victims. It doesn't say much about his training if he accidentally shot others while firing at close range. IMO MOO

Was French close enough to the officer to grab his arm during the shooting causing some of the shots to go awry?

 

[jjenny]

Was French close enough to the officer to grab his arm during the shooting causing some of the shots to go awry?

It would appear not, unless his arms are five to seven feet long.

 

[RANCH]

It would appear not, unless his arms are five to seven feet long.

I've heard five to seven shots were fired. I'm not sure where the distance you're coming up with came from. Maybe I've missed it. We have this witness report.

“He stood up by himself. He pulled out his handgun and starts triggering five to seven shots,” Ms. Bawit said, adding that she was within 10 feet of the men and then took cover. “I was hiding in between the meat aisle, behind the freezer section. I thought I was going to be dead, too.”

Costco Shooting Leaves Family of Man Killed by Off-Duty Officer Demanding Answers

 

[Lilibet]

Okay—what about this scenario? Off-duty officer receives an unprovoked, unexpected blow that sends him to the ground. As he gets to his feet, he draws his gun and yells something along the lines of “I’m a police officer—stand back.”

Now, what does he do if the ‘giant’ who knocked him down starts to advance on him? He can’t let his gun be taken away from him by someone who is capriciously violent. His training doesn’t cover the possibility of turning and running. Besides, if he ran, he’d be leaving his wife and baby in the reach of someone who is violent. (Remember the man who tossed the child off the upper-story railing at the Mall. If I had a little child, that story would be living in my mind even more vividly than it does.)

So, if he drew his gun reflexively, what does he then do?

Note that this is all speculation on my part. I have absolutely no idea what happened.

Well, in your scenario I have to wonder why his first reaction to being knocked down would be to jump up with his gun drawn and announce he is a police officer. So what? He’s just a regular shopper like me or anyone else. Why not do what a regular person would do? I would retreat as quickly as possible.

In reflexively drawing a gun when the attacker is apparently unarmed, the off-duty policeman backs himself into a corner and is more likely to have to shoot. I also wonder if the mother had scooped up the baby when he fell and moved out of the way. Surely, other shoppers would have come to the policeman’s aid, especially if a gun wasn’t in the mix. His mistake was drawing his gun without fully assessing the situation in your scenario. We still don’t know exactly how it played out in reality.

Of course, if other shoppers were being threatened by French it would make sense for the policeman to announce who he is, but I still feel a gun in this setting is a last resort, not a first one.

 

[RANCH]

Well, in your scenario I have to wonder why his first reaction to being knocked down would be to jump up with his gun drawn and announce he is a police officer. So what? He’s just a regular shopper like me or anyone else. Why not do what a regular person would do? I would retreat as quickly as possible.

In reflexively drawing a gun when the attacker is apparently unarmed, the off-duty policeman backs himself into a corner and is more likely to have to shoot. I also wonder if the mother had scooped up the baby when he fell and moved out of the way. Surely, other shoppers would have come to the policeman’s aid, especially if a gun wasn’t in the mix. His mistake was drawing his gun without fully assessing the situation in your scenario. We still don’t know exactly how it played out in reality.

Of course, if other shoppers were being threatened by French it would make sense for the policeman to announce who he is, but I still feel a gun in this setting is a last resort, not a first one.

Did the officer draw his gun while still down and then jump up with it in his hand? Or did he get up, face his attacker, and then draw his gun?

 

[wary]

Did the officer draw his gun while still down and then jump up with it in his hand? Or did he get up, face his attacker, and then draw his gun?

At this point, we have no idea. As you see it, what are the significances of the two scenarios?

 

[mickey2942]

I hope that the shooter had a toxicology test done after the shooting...

 

[Lilibet]

Did the officer draw his gun while still down and then jump up with it in his hand? Or did he get up, face his attacker, and then draw his gun?

I was replying to Wary’s hypothetical scenario in which he drew his gun as he got up. We have no idea what he actually did. Either way, it seems that things happened fast.

 

[RANCH]

At this point, we have no idea. As you see it, what are the significances of the two scenarios?

If the officer was down on his face from being knocked to the floor and he pulled his gun out without knowing what happened or if a threat was still present it would make me believe he acted irresponsibly.

If he got to him feet, faced a person who continued to assault him or threaten the safety of his child and he then pulled the gun, it would be justified IMO.

 

[mickey2942]

I was replying to Wary’s hypothetical scenario in which he drew his gun as he got up. We have no idea what he actually did. Either way, it seems that things happened fast.

That is what I thought, meaning that off duty, this guy didn't even have his safety on his gun, he pulled it, and shot folks, that quickly. Or, he deliberately, took the safety off of his gun, and then shot folks? Either way, the assessment part is missing in responding with lethal force.

Unless French was actively charging towards him, continuing the escalation. That would change the equation.

 

[Lilibet]

If the officer was down on his face from being knocked to the floor and he pulled his gun out without knowing what happened or if a threat was still present it would make me believe he acted irresponsibly.

If he got to him feet, faced a person who continued to assault him or threaten the safety of his child and he then pulled the gun, it would be justified IMO.

In principle, I have a problem using lethal force against an unarmed person who isn’t clearly intending to kill me. In reality, we don’t know what French was trying to do, but assault isn’t necessarily attempted murder. And there may very well have been people nearby who could have stopped French without a bullet if the policeman had held his fire.

 

[RANCH]

In principle, I have a problem using lethal force against an unarmed person who isn’t clearly intending to kill me. In reality, we don’t know what French was trying to do, but assault isn’t necessarily attempted murder. And there may very well have been people nearby who could have stopped French without a bullet if the policeman had held his fire.

I'm of the view that sometimes it's necessary to use deadly force with a firearm to stop an unarmed person from causing great bodily injury. It doesn't have to be attempted murder IMO. I think the CA law was posted up thread that shows this so I'll just say it's JMO.

I'm not sure if this case falls into that category or not yet.

 

[RANCH]

That is what I thought, meaning that off duty, this guy didn't even have his safety on his gun, he pulled it, and shot folks, that quickly. Or, he deliberately, took the safety off of his gun, and then shot folks? Either way, the assessment part is missing in responding with lethal force.

Unless French was actively charging towards him, continuing the escalation. That would change the equation.

If the officers gun was a Glock it may not have a manual safety that operates as you describe.

The SAFE ACTION® System is a fully automatic safety system consisting of three passive, independently operating, mechanical safeties. All three safeties disengage sequentially as the trigger is pulled and automatically re-engage when the trigger is released.

Basically the gun has automatic safeties that prevent accidental discharges of the gun. However to fire, all you need to do is pull the trigger.

Another fact that is missing from us. What kind of gun was used and did it have a manual safety?

https://us.glock.com/en/learn/glock-pistols/safe-action-system