Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #107

[allboys]

Yes and to add to your very good thoughts... Because this is a HWY we are talking about here I would have to assume that Indiana State Police would have been on this highway throughout the day. This parking lot is very visible from this highway. I would have to think if he was indeed parked there a dash cam would have recorded the image of his vehicle.

Very good point. I wonder how long those dash cam recordings are kept. And I wonder if it was dash cam footage that may have given LE the eventual tip that there was a vehicle in that lot that day sometime between 12-5.

I know I saw an interview with Carter sometime (a couple weeks?) after the crime, where he said they were not aware of any unidentified vehicles in the area that day. So, seems like whatever tip came in about a vehicle in the CPS lot, must have been a while after the fact.

Unfortunately, I don’t have a link to that interview, but I will post it if I find it.

 

[Stephenie]

I don't know why I never put it together, that the trail basically ended at the end of the bridge. That makes the presence of BG more ominous to me. He basically had them cornered. They would have to pass by him at some point (or go down the hill) . I think he had to have known this. I consider myself a pretty street smart person and in a situation like that, tall bridge, dead end trail, older man approaching with purpose, I would have been scared. When I say "with purpose" I mean, his purpose seemed to be to only cross. If he had been walking a dog, or taking photos or talking on the phone, wearing running gear, then I might not have even gave him a second look.

 

[TL4S]

Very good point. I wonder how long those dash cam recordings are kept. And I wonder if it was dash cam footage that may have given LE the eventual tip that there was a vehicle in that lot that day sometime between 12-5.

I know I saw an interview with Carter sometime (a couple weeks?) after the crime, where he said they were not aware of any unidentified vehicles in the area that day. So, seems like whatever tip came in about a vehicle in the CPS lot, must have been a while after the fact.

Unfortunately, I don’t have a link to that interview, but I will post it if I find it.

I had wondered about dashcams, but I read where Indiana has only very recently added them to some squad cars?

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

I had wondered about dashcams, but I read where Indiana has only very recently added them to some squad cars?

'Justice for Glenn Rightsell' rallies push, but ISP has no plans to add dash cams

This article fron 2019 mentions ISP dashcam useage to sime extent

ETA words

 

[FinePrint]

We talk a lot about crossing the creek but from my memory only, I believe that that shoreline area below the crime scene has a steep embankment. I'm looking to find pictures, I think my memory is coming from the helicopter footage.

But if it was as steep as my memory serves the girls were found some 50 feet up over the embankment into the woods. I don't know if they could have easily gotten up into those woods once crossing the creek. It may have taken all, girls and BG to be on hands and knees to get up there unless there were some trees to grab onto. If BGs pants were not wet because of crossing in a shallow area I would think at least the knees of his pants would have been dirty/muddy...

We've not heard of any witness describing a guy with wet or dirty pants. That would stick out to me. If I had seen someone with wet or dirty knees I would have laughed to myself that that person probably took a spill on the trail!

Anyone have pictures of the embankment area below the crime scene from the creek looking up?

 

[FinePrint]

'Justice for Glenn Rightsell' rallies push, but ISP has no plans to add dash cams

This article fron 2019 mentions ISP dashcam useage to sime extent

ETA words

Jeeze, only 7 percent have dash cams and that is in the area we are speaking of!!

 

[CSIDreamer]

'Justice for Glenn Rightsell' rallies push, but ISP has no plans to add dash cams

This article fron 2019 mentions ISP dashcam useage to sime extent

ETA words

I used to live there. That's a major sore spot. While I generally back the blue 100% this is a stellar example of why dash cams and body cams should be required.

 

[Lea Irving]

Hi all, newbie here. Been looking at the video that was put out over and over again, pausing it and looking at the stills. I had to put the first sketch from my head as all I could think was hat hat hat. Now in the stills I see him, the new sketch. On the left picture I think the hood of his hoody has blown down and to me shows a Justin Bieber type haircut which is browny blond, a cleanshaven face that looks young with quite a thick jawline. I think his big belly is either weapons, rope maybe and he appears to be holding it up. The unsteady gait is the unkempt bridge but maybe he had a few beers? Have a look and please.. .be gentle with me. Good on you all for fighting for justice for these two beautiful girls. Never forget.

 

[FinePrint]

Hi all, newbie here. Been looking at the video that was put out over and over again, pausing it and looking at the stills. I had to put the first sketch from my head as all I could think was hat hat hat. Now in the stills I see him, the new sketch. On the left picture I think the hood of his hoody has blown down and to me shows a Justin Bieber type haircut which is browny blond, a cleanshaven face that looks young with quite a thick jawline. I think his big belly is either weapons, rope maybe and he appears to be holding it up. The unsteady gait is the unkempt bridge but maybe he had a few beers? Have a look and please.. .be gentle with me. Good on you all for fighting for justice for these two beautiful girls. Never forget.

Welcome @Lea Irving. We love fresh eyes on this case and no worries, we are a gentle bunch!!! Please continue to post your observations.

 

[MistyWaters]

Very good point. I wonder how long those dash cam recordings are kept. And I wonder if it was dash cam footage that may have given LE the eventual tip that there was a vehicle in that lot that day sometime between 12-5.

I know I saw an interview with Carter sometime (a couple weeks?) after the crime, where he said they were not aware of any unidentified vehicles in the area that day. So, seems like whatever tip came in about a vehicle in the CPS lot, must have been a while after the fact.

Unfortunately, I don’t have a link to that interview, but I will post it if I find it.

During the PC, Carter asked that the driver of that particular car parked between 12 and 5pm please contact the officers at the Delphi command center. I really don’t think he was expecting the suspect to voluntarily turn himself in. More likely the driver was a person LE wanted to speak with, possibly somebody who had already offered information about something or someone they observed while at or near the trail between noon to 5pm.

I think we all got overly excited about LE having a big lead on the suspect, having learned the identification of his vehicle. But Carter didn’t say that so while it’s a possibility, it’s not a certainty.

 

[tresir2012]

Post 84 on thread 65 states the following. (Am posting this because @Cutiekitty was asking about the Snapchat and I thought this was significant that a HS student was thought to have shared it. I'm still looking for the transcript of the August '17 Holman "crossing the creek" interview if anyone comes across it. The link won't work for EU )

"The SC pic from 2:07PM is a "screen grab" from a searcher's phone, via the SC app, shared 7+ hours after the image was uploaded to SC. A MSM reporter was at the volunteer fire station in town, interviewing folks who were part of the search, roughly 9:45-10PM that evening, when the searcher (a HS student IIRC), shared the image on his phone.

At that time, there was no urgency in the search effort, it was not believed the girls "were in danger".

There's a possibility that Libby not only had the "presence of mind" to start recording, and she got a shot of the suspect, but she had the presence of mind to drop or throw the phone.

JMO"

I guess, now we have NBG sketch and a young perp age, I want to question why a HS male student would have access to Libby's SC. Anyone have any idea?

 

[FinePrint]

During the PC, Carter asked that the driver of that particular car parked between 12 and 5pm please contact the officers at the Delphi command center. I really don’t think he was expecting the suspect to voluntarily turn himself in. More likely the driver was a person LE wanted to speak with, possibly somebody who had already offered information about something or someone they observed while at or near the trail between noon to 5pm.

I think we all got overly excited about LE having a big lead on the suspect, having learned the identification of his vehicle. But Carter didn’t say that so while it’s a possibility, it’s not a certainty.

This is why I love WS. Members bring up possibilities I never even thought of!! Really expands the way you look at things...

 

[susiQ]

Let today be the day.

Please bear with me, a couple of thoughts. TIA.

To be clear, Abby and Libby are victims, not victim blaming in any way shape or form:

1. Do you think the girls would have found another way to get to the trail that day if KG hadn't offered the ride? i.e. Could they have walked or taken the bus?

2. It has been said by family that the girls didn't want to wear coats or sweatshirts (paraphrasing) to the trail that day, but family insisted, so Abby borrowed one to wear. It appears that Libby was wearing a jacket in the BG video she takes (there is a brief glimpse of it in one of the frames)

I am wondering if the girls did plan to meet someone at the park? Perhaps they had been "catfished" online by someone who said they were younger than they really are, and BG set up the whole thing from start to "finish".

The girls seeming persistence in going to the trail that day, for really what was supposed to be a not very long time, iirc dropped off around 1:30 and picked up less than two hours later by Libby's Dad, makes me wonder if they hadn't planned to meet someone on the trail, rather than hiking or walking a larger part of the trail system, hope that makes sense?

When I was younger, even in my 20's, but especially in my teens, I remember not wanting to put a coat or jacket on, as to "not ruin my outfit" or my "look" for the occasion or event.

Again, not victim blaming in any way! These girls were completely victimized by this monster.

Thoughts?

If, as per Kelsie statement, there were between 10-20 other "kids" out on the trails when she dropped them off (and others), were they hoping to meet up with someone in that group or someone else? My only problem with that theory is, wouldn't LE have found the electronic communications confirming such a plan? It could have been much simpler than that. Kelsi telling her boyfriend she's on her way but is dropping the girls off at the trailhead first. Kelsi's bf telling his bud, no I can't come right now, Kelsi is coming over after she drops off Libby and Abby at the trails. Or, someone says, "Hey, Libby just posted a SC pic of Abby on on the bridge." I'm still in the camp that the killer somehow knew that Libby and Abby were going to be there and that the girls, or at least one of them, was targeted. I don't think they knew him, but he knew OF them. Just speculation, but this crime went down without a hitch, VERY quickly and no one heard or saw a thing. Except maybe the witness that "saw something" she felt needed to be reported later and may well not have taken place at the trailhead or park. Well, I guess not exactly without a hitch as he is on video and audio. And yes, that surprises me too, that that evidence exists and there is still no POI to focus on. Although, I believe some of us have our own personal POI/POIs?
JMT, JMO, MOO and all that Jazz!

 

[JnRyan]

I must have listened to the video at the bottom of the page a half dozen times.
Lead detective in Delphi murders confirms police have more audio from phone, DNA evidence
1st Sgt Holeman states that they have DNA, but are working on identifying the killer's DNA. He further stated that 'touch' DNA is powerful evidence as someone can touch something and it still be there months later. It makes me wonder if they don't have 2, 3 or more male DNA profiles off their clothing. As I stated before one of them could have hung or laid their sweatshirt somewhere and a courteous person picked it up and handed it to them. At a gas station, convenience store or fast food place a person from hundreds of miles away and driving through Delphi could have bumped into one of them. If LE cannot isolate the killer's DNA, then they have nothing to give to a lab like Parabon to generate a sketch.

Listening to it this last time I heard something I missed the earlier times. Near the very end someone, a male, not the interviewer, asks Holeman if a weapon was found at the scene. The person asking the question is farther away from the microphone and I had to turn up the sound to hear the question. Holeman refuses to answer saying he can't provide that information at this time. He hesitated before he answered, thinking about his answer. I would think that would be a very common interview question and one he shouldn't have to think about.

Edited-corrected link

 

[susiQ]

We talk a lot about crossing the creek but from my memory only, I believe that that shoreline area below the crime scene has a steep embankment. I'm looking to find pictures, I think my memory is coming from the helicopter footage.

But if it was as steep as my memory serves the girls were found some 50 feet up over the embankment into the woods. I don't know if they could have easily gotten up into those woods once crossing the creek. It may have taken all, girls and BG to be on hands and knees to get up there unless there were some trees to grab onto. If BGs pants were not wet because of crossing in a shallow area I would think at least the knees of his pants would have been dirty/muddy...

We've not heard of any witness describing a guy with wet or dirty pants. That would stick out to me. If I had seen someone with wet or dirty knees I would have laughed to myself that that person probably took a spill on the trail!

Anyone have pictures of the embankment area below the crime scene from the creek looking up?

Personally, I believe however he left the crime scene, he was not seen by anyone at the park. Maybe, the witness that saw something she felt needed to be reported saw him along his escape route doing something noteworthy? Wouldn't it be interesting to have the details of where she saw him and what she saw?

 

[susiQ]

I must have listened to the video at the bottom of the page a half dozen times.
The missing city manager mystery: ‘Our hope is that we find him living somewhere.’
1st Sgt Holeman states that they have DNA, but are working on identifying the killer's DNA. He further stated that 'touch' DNA is powerful evidence as someone can touch something and it still be there months later. It makes me wonder if they don't have 2, 3 or more male DNA profiles off their clothing. As I stated before one of them could have hung or laid their sweatshirt somewhere and a courteous person picked it up and handed it to them. At a gas station, convenience store or fast food place a person from hundreds of miles away and driving through Delphi could have bumped into one of them. If LE cannot isolate the killer's DNA, then they have nothing to give to a lab like Parabon to generate a sketch.

Listening to it this last time I heard something I missed the earlier times. Near the very end someone, a male, not the interviewer, asks Holeman if a weapon was found at the scene. The person asking the question is farther away from the microphone and I had to turn up the sound to hear the question. Holeman refuses to answer saying he can't provide that information at this time. He hesitated before he answered, thinking about his answer. I would think that would be a very common interview question and one he shouldn't have to think about.

With respect to the question of a weapon at the crime scene and Holeman's hesitation to respond, could it be that a ligature for strangulation was found but the bodies also had blunt force trauma or stab wounds and no weapon was found in relation to those wounds? I hate typing this stuff

 

[TL4S]

Not to harp on this idea of the girls crossing the creek by choice and BG going back across the bridge and meeting up with them on the north side of the creek, but I did measuring on a map. If the girls went pretty much straight across the creek and toward the cemetery, and BG crossed back until he could get off the bridge and headed toward the girls, he only had about 900 feet further to walk. If the girls headed towards the trail once across the creek, it would be even less for BG to catch up to them. And I think without leaves on the trees, he really probably could see them (or hear them). Walking 1000 feet would easily still fit into that "minutes" time frame LE has given. JMOMOOIMO...

If LE is truthful about the reenactments being wrong, than we're missing something. This could explain it, but it also opens others questions, like why the crime scene tape at the end of the bridge? Why not go to Abby's? Why not call somebody? IMO, I can come up with answers to those questions, but it's all guessing.

I think about what a 13 and 14 year old girl might think to do in a situation where they are scared and alone. I'd guess they would want to get to where there are people. The trail, the road (N 300 W), the person waiting for them at the trailhead. JMO

 

[JnRyan]

With respect to the question of a weapon at the crime scene and Holeman's hesitation to respond, could it be that a ligature for strangulation was found but the bodies also had blunt force trauma or stab wounds and no weapon was found in relation to those wounds? I hate typing this stuff

You're thinking along the lines that I am. One killed quickly - gun or blunt force - and then the other strangled and that ligature left at the scene. I discounted that after thinking about it. If the killer left the ligature it would difficult to not have DNA on it if he brought it and LE could quickly deduce this would be the killer's DNA (unless IT has multiple DNA profiles). Ligature was something at hand, not brought by him to the scene? Yeah, I didn't type it before for the very same reason.

 

[JnRyan]

We talk a lot about crossing the creek but from my memory only, I believe that that shoreline area below the crime scene has a steep embankment. I'm looking to find pictures, I think my memory is coming from the helicopter footage.

But if it was as steep as my memory serves the girls were found some 50 feet up over the embankment into the woods. I don't know if they could have easily gotten up into those woods once crossing the creek. It may have taken all, girls and BG to be on hands and knees to get up there unless there were some trees to grab onto. If BGs pants were not wet because of crossing in a shallow area I would think at least the knees of his pants would have been dirty/muddy...

We've not heard of any witness describing a guy with wet or dirty pants. That would stick out to me. If I had seen someone with wet or dirty knees I would have laughed to myself that that person probably took a spill on the trail!

Anyone have pictures of the embankment area below the crime scene from the creek looking up?

I've thought about that, too. It gives me two thoughts on the matter. One, the crime scene and the fact they were probably the only ones crossing the creek that day. (Yeah, that's an assumption, but I just can't picture a crowd of people saying, "Hey look at that creek with 30 or 40 degree water on this day with temps in the 40's...let's go wading in it and cross it!") Crossing that creek is likely to leave tracks in the mud and LE can eliminate the prints made by Abigail and Liberty, so LE likely knows the killer's shoe size and maybe even from the wear pattern what to expect from other shoes he has. The other is how the killer got to his car and I believe he stayed on that side of the creek inside the tree line until he closed on the trail, then he went straight to the road and to his vehicle. Minimizes his chances of being seen.

 

[JnRyan]

If LE is truthful about the reenactments being wrong, than we're missing something. This could explain it, but it also opens others questions, like why the crime scene tape at the end of the bridge? Why not go to Abby's? Why not call somebody? IMO, I can come up with answers to those questions, but it's all guessing.

I heard that and started discounting all the reenactments. Then I started to think about it. LE didn't say ALL of the reenactments were wrong. I believe Gray Hughes had a reenactment of a possible scene at the end of the bridge that is probably very close. It doesn't show any physical confrontation, but it still gives one chills.