Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #107

[Thelastleg]

According to my attempt at understanding the lay of the land, where the girls were dropped off and were supposed to be picked up was a since-closed access through the M’s property, directly beside the Mary Gerard Nature Reserve, on the west side towards Delphi. The path joined up with the same trail to the bridge that led from the main access, but making it somewhat of a shorter route.

The trails led to the bridge which crossed the creek, and their bodies were discovered on the same side as the trail heads and cemetery which it why it’s presumed they crossed the creek from the far end of the bridge. The old rail bridge is quite long and passes over far more land than water. It apparently takes about 7 minutes to walk from one end to the other.

Thank you very much. I have got it clear in my head now with your description.

 

[Thelastleg]

My personal feeling is no, no accomplice. And I know this is really baseless, but he's such an *advertiser censored**hole that I just don't see him crossing the creek. Yeah, cross the bridge again, listen to the girls crossing the creek below, squeeling at how cold the water is while he cuts through the woods. I can see him doing that.

Just for the heck of it, here's two maps. One is the girl's route across the creek (my guess only as to the easiest route down hills and over sandbars). The other is IF BG had crossed back over the bridge and walked through the woods to cut them off, meeting up with them. His "down the hill" in this scenario is the hill behind the cemetery. His route, in this case, is only 672 feet further than the girls. He had the bridge to cross, they had the creek. Does the timing seem plausible to meet around that area? IDK

Wow, what detail. That is brilliant. I never had thought it possible that they had ran off and crossed the creek on their own and BG could have went back over the bridge. However after reading your scenario, I can see now that if that happened, the girls were fleeing to the safety of the pick up point and he knew whereabouts they would be heading. I'm just puzzled how no one saw or heard anything.

 

[TL4S]

Wow, what detail. That is brilliant. I never had thought it possible that they had ran off and crossed the creek on their own and BG could have went back over the bridge. However after reading your scenario, I can see now that if that happened, the girls were fleeing to the safety of the pick up point and he knew whereabouts they would be heading. I'm just puzzled how no one saw or heard anything.

That puzzles me in any of the scenarios. This, IMO, is why some of us say he was lucky. How no one heard or saw anything?

 

[FinePrint]

After the latest presser, I went to Google Earth and played around with archived images of the MHB, the area around there, and the CPS building.

Lo and behold, you can go back to March of 1992, which wasn't long after CSX abandoned the railroad RoW which runs through there. Long before IN 25 was relocated close to the CPS building, it opened in 2014.

The CPS building first appears in 1993. A parking area in front of the building facing west was obliterated when the highway went through. I think the building was abandoned around 2007-ish.

I stumbled upon something people talked about early on in the case, the "gravel pit" behind the cemetery. It's clearly visible in a USGS image from 1992, which I posted below. The girls were found to the right and a little down from the pit. I also included a screen grab where RL is talking to a reporter, the berm behind the reporter is part of the perimeter berm for the pit. The green box I placed on the USGS image is the approximate spot where the girls were found.

Just thought I'd share, thought it's kinda neat.

I believe the berm for the pit, and other nearby stuff, was used to BG for concealment purposes. I also believe LE about where the perp or perps are from, they're local. No way some random dude found that spot, not in my opinion, not a typical serial killer deal or what have you.

BG knew generally where he wanted to kill the girls, but how he knows RL's and the M property is anyone's guess.

JMO

-FD

Thanks, that is really interesting and I agree with you in regard to him being local. Could have been a childhood hang out of sorts or he simply had intimate knowledge.

 

[Cutiekitty]

It was posted on FB by one of Libby's friends who had uploaded the image to FB. That is where the Daily Mail - I believe the first MSM to publish it - got it since they credit Facebook for the image.

Yep. In that post the poster states the pic was at 2:07. They have no way of knowing when the pic was posted unless they saw it posted at exactly 2:07 and noted that 7 hours later. That’s why I think the 2:07 time that’s been used in almost all scenarios is wrong. I think it was actually posted shortly after they arrived (1:35-1:45). If I’m correct then there is more time between the initial encounter with BG and the final outcome.

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

Yep. In that post the poster states the pic was at 2:07. They have no way of knowing when the pic was posted unless they saw it posted at exactly 2:07 and noted that 7 hours later. That’s why I think the 2:07 time that’s been used in almost all scenarios is wrong. I think it was actually posted shortly after they arrived (1:35-1:45). If I’m correct then there is more time between the initial encounter with BG and the final outcome.

I think the possibly earlier posting of pic ,and thfore potentially longer contact period ,fits with both the audio being ' The stuff of nightmares....' and also (still cannot find source so imo) the comment ' ...you hear the guy/man/attacker/BG becoming impatient with the Girls......(paraphrase) ((((( other posters recall being aware of this quote too...from a fam member or LE in an intvw , when asked about other audio.....Im searching daily for the source still)))))

There has to be some time elapse for the 'frustration'?


On the other hand, the earlier posting of pic and thfore potentially extended period of contact ,does really tighten the timeline at the other end? Drop off by KG 1.35/40pm? How long to reach bridge? +5min to cross to point of pic?

Eta 'earlier' not later posting of pic

 

[susiQ]

How do they actually know this though? What has brought LE to this conclusion?

Eg. Someone could be from Lafayette and know the trails like the back of his hand if he frequented them often.

I think the answer to this lies in the fact that BG took them OFF the trails and knew the EXACT topography of the land, like the "back of his hand," so-to-speak. BG had a familiarity that not many would have. What I will never understand is how this wasn't obvious to LE right from the get-go.

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

Just a little side post.

Ive been scouring 2+ years of msm and other sources and little news broadcasts and intvws and phone-ins and am struck at how much effort BP MP KG and AW have put into all the above. Plus leafleting fayres and events and Sports events, and mailing flyers across State and Country, phone intvws , SM intvws, tv intvws, organising SM campaigns, etc etc etc.

I feel like Ive seen and heard the same intvw 1000x. Mostly by BP and MP.

And it struck me today.......just how devastated they must have been that after nearly 2yrs of this focus on pushing the OBG mugshot.............. The utter commitment and emotional effort to get this out there........

And then April PC. Im drained just thinking of it.

 

[R.U.Kidding!]

In that show that aired not long ago on Investigation Discovery channel called "Still a Mystery: Down the Hill, Abby's mother comments on listening to the girls talking at the end of the bridge. Abby was heard saying (paraphrasing) can't we keep going this way away from the bridge while Libby was saying but the trail ends here. So it seems to me they were very uneasy about BG approaching them and were not wanting him near them. It breaks the heart to think Abby's inner alarm was going off and they convinced themselves to just wait to recross the bridge instead of running through the woods away, making their own path.

Down the Hill | Still A Mystery

I just watched that show last night. I thought it was interesting that they had said it was unseasonable warm that day. The girls did not want to wear even their sweatshirts and this guy almost disappears into his heavy clothing. I will have to watch this again since I missed the part about the mother hearing a conversation by the girls. I do remember the narrator say they could not go back to their pickup point because they would have to pass this guy.
That conversation by the girls would change my theory of the girls knowing this guy....and I was so convinced of that . If this is true I will have to go back to square one.
The Mothers attitude about this horrific event seemed rather shallow with a cocky attitude. She bothered me , not the way I would think you would act when your child has been murdered.
But that's just me.

 

[gregjrichards]

Just a little side post.

Ive been scouring 2+ years of msm and other sources and little news broadcasts and intvws and phone-ins and am struck at how much effort BP MP KG and AW have put into all the above. Plus leafleting fayres and events and Sports events, and mailing flyers across State and Country, phone intvws , SM intvws, tv intvws, organising SM campaigns, etc etc etc.

I feel like Ive seen and heard the same intvw 1000x. Mostly by BP and MP.

And it struck me today.......just how devastated they must have been that after nearly 2yrs of this focus on pushing the OBG mugshot.............. The utter commitment and emotional effort to get this out there........

And then April PC. Im drained just thinking of it.

It is remarkable they have not lashed out in anger about it I am really surprised how supportive they continue to be of law enforcement. My heart breaks for them.

 

[TL4S]

Yep. In that post the poster states the pic was at 2:07. They have no way of knowing when the pic was posted unless they saw it posted at exactly 2:07 and noted that 7 hours later. That’s why I think the 2:07 time that’s been used in almost all scenarios is wrong. I think it was actually posted shortly after they arrived (1:35-1:45). If I’m correct then there is more time between the initial encounter with BG and the final outcome.

So if the only way that friend could have known it happened at 2:07 is if she saw it right when it was posted, than for her to say that exact time with certainty the next day, maybe she texted someone, even Libby, right after the post? That would have had a labeled time.

Also, LE would have known the exact time of the video and audio, right? I mean, that information is stored?

Sorry, I'm not that familiar with SC or iphones.

 

[TL4S]

The point of my post was to illustrate exactly what the perp in Ardmore had done.

1. Vehicles in Oklahoma only have rear plates. If you watched the second video that shows the surveillance you can see that he backed the car into the spot, closest available one to the exit of the parking lot.
2. Backing his car in also made his exit faster than his entrance as backing up (unless you do it completely blind) is slower.
3. He chose an intercept point straight across the road that was within a short distance to his car such that, success or fail, he has the best possible chance of getting to his means of escape.

This are important things to see because it demonstrates that people who do such things actually do some planning/preparation to mitigate risks and have a plan to get out quickly success or fail.

So, what, if anything can we determine about BG's thinking and preparation?

What was his mitigation plan to keep one or both girls from running?

Either one gets away then whatever he was going to do is out the window. We know the girls were not physically trapped where they were at the time of the video. We know when the video of BG was taken BG was some 70 feet away. If the girls had thought to run they would have had a large head start especially since the ties on a railroad bridge are not spaced for human walking (let alone running) but for supporting very heavy trains.

What happens should someone come down the trail to get on the bridge at the north side? What does BG do? What if the abduction is already in progress? What was the mitigation plan for those scenarios?

He certainly wouldn't be able to go back over the bridge. Anyone on the bridge or just at the north end has the high ground and would be able to watch where BG would go.

What if a car, or a delivery vehicle, whatever, came along the road that goes under the bridge? What does he do?
What if there was someone or even a few people further south of the bridge that BG didn't or couldn't see?

What happens if when BG and the girls get to the south bank of the creek and there is one or more persons that can be seen over on the other side? What happens then?

He certainly wouldn't be able to see the area where the girls were found from where they were at the end of the bridge. Wouldn't be able to see into that area until almost at the banks of the creek. This would seemingly be the worst possible spot for things to go wrong. He would have to back track all the way.

Success or fail: How close was his means of escape? What were his options for getting to his means of escape?

If we go with the prevailing theory of the flow of the crime it would appear that BG came armed with the plan of going through the 35-38 degree water of the creek if it was a success. I could see crossing the creek as an escape plan B if things went wrong but doing so if things went right? Who thinks like that?

Obviously BG, if things happened as theorized and something like that should inform any profile of BG.

If the vehicle of interest at the CPS was BG's just how fast could he get there if things went bad? 10 minutes? 15 minutes? Both of those are a long time for law enforcement to arrive. Someone could follow BG at a distance just to keep him in sight and relay that information. If someone were on the other side of the bridge it would possibly preclude that option for getting out of there. Would such a scenario force BG to go the long way around staying on the South Side? But at the same time someone who had seen/interrupted this crime could easily follow along the north side keeping BG in sight.

While it is true that there wasn't an interruption, the girls didn't run, someone didn't come along to spook BG and scare him off but that does not mean that BG could count on, let alone know in advance, that everything would fall into place.

I have trouble especially with the idea that BG would chose an intercept point that wouldn't be in sight of, or a very short and easy path to, his means of escape if something went wrong.

If his means of escape were on the South Side then that has the some problems as well if the prevailing theory of the crime flow is true especially if things went wrong after crossing the creek, though he would be closer to a means of escape.

These are the kinds of things I try to work through.

Lots of valid questions here. I think it's also possible he was just impulsive and lucky. At the very least he was probably watching and listening for other people on the trail. He could have ditched the whole thing all the way up to the point he had the girls under his control.

I wish I was more familiar with the trail. From the bridge, and especially from the north end of it, how much of the trail is visible? I would imagine that's the direction he'd be most wary of people coming from. JMO

If he'd gained control already at the south end of the bridge, could he have gotten the girls down the hill, through the woods, and across the creek without being visible from the bridge? Certainly that all would take enough time for someone else to start crossing the bridge? Seems like a risky option. MOO

It does make me look again at what I was obsessively posting about yesterday - BG recrossing the bridge while the girls took the woods to avoid confronting him. If the girls saw him heading back over the bridge, I think their concerns would have lessened and they maybe wouldn't have been in as big of a hurry (although probably still unnerved and wanting to get to Libby's dad).

So BG gets to the north end of the bridge, still probably with an idea of where the girls are because either he can hear/see them, or he simply figures they are heading to the road or trail. Once at the north end, before he goes into the woods to cut them off, can he see down the trail? If someone was walking towards him, he'd just walk the trail back like normal. But if nobody was around, he'd go after them? It's just an idea. I'm not wholly married to this theory, but it fills enough gaps for me to want to consider it fully.

 

[susiQ]

I just watched that show last night. I thought it was interesting that they had said it was unseasonable warm that day. The girls did not want to wear even their sweatshirts and this guy almost disappears into his heavy clothing. I will have to watch this again since I missed the part about the mother hearing a conversation by the girls. I do remember the narrator say they could not go back to their pickup point because they would have to pass this guy.
That conversation by the girls would change my theory of the girls knowing this guy....and I was so convinced of that . If this is true I will have to go back to square one.
The Mothers attitude about this horrific event seemed rather shallow with a cocky attitude. She bothered me , not the way I would think you would act when your child has been murdered.
But that's just me.

I haven't been able to watch the program yet, but with respect to "attitude" we have to remember everyone grieves differently and at different times. From personal experience having lost an adult son, there are days I still weep and days that I go about life, living, laughing and loving and easily speaking of him without bursting into tears. I can't even imagine what it would be like to lose a child under such horrific circumstances. Also, as time passes, it becomes easier to control our emotions when in public. Time never takes away the pain, but does allow us to control our emotion better.

 

[HEY YOU!]

Looking at the maps, I can't help but feel BG is extremely familiar with the area. I feel that he definitely planned to do this that day. I can't stop the feeling that he killed them because one or both of them knew something that he didn't want to get out. Or he lured them online through a secret app to rape/kill.

Also, I thought I had read that Abby had a boyfriend? Is that true?

Lastly, I think Libby kicked her shoe off on purpose to lead searchers. Just a thought.

 

[Boxer]

That puzzles me in any of the scenarios. This, IMO, is why some of us say he was lucky. How no one heard or saw anything?

MOO it is very possible not to be seen if you don't want to be in a wooded area. Just get off trail and be quiet.

Winds coming from the W and SW. MOO that sent most noise if any was made to the east.

 

[JMT1008]

Just marking my spot. Keep up the great discussion.

 

[MizStery]

Boxer I think your idea would fit in with my amateur profile of BG.

MOO Maybe he did intend a north side ambush and girls just kept hanging out on the bridge, as they went slow it started pushing his timeline and knowing the area well when he got impatient he decided to go get them under control and cross the creek.

Just a possible reason, the boldness of the attack seems to lead to an equally speedy and risky plan of escape.

I would say taking glee from getting away with things by doing the unexpected quickly would be a personalty trait of his.

Hi Misty,your scenario is a possibility. But I believe BG was a sadistic animal like Zak in the Holly Bobo Case. Shooting would be quick and never satisfy his cruel urges or fantasies.

IMO to your first possibility, that would describe to me the epitome of A Coward, shooting at two innocent children as they’re attempting to make their way to safety.

I can imagine BG ruthlessness would be evident from the brutality of securing tie wraps to inflicting pain <snip>so I imagine him herding them across the creek to the secluded CS. Sure he waded in the icy creek but the fear & misery of his victims was the ultimate high.Perhaps in a manic euphoric state the icy water did not trouble him.I believe his vicious and intimidating erratic pace heightened his pleasure and sense of control and also how he was able to both get in and quickly exit the CS.

Hi susuQ, I agree the crime was about BG’s sadistic fantasies of ultimate power over his victims suffering, life and death. It makes me sick to write this post but I think BG is going to act out again and must be caught and caged like the rabid animal he is.

He also knew where to cross the creek at it's lowest point. He knew RL's land and he knew how to get out without being seen.

MOO

 

[jillycat]

From remarks by LE, I doubt that the girls were shot and just left there. My impression has always been that the scene where their bodies were found was remarkably disturbing and LE has had a difficult time with that.

 

[Deathsgrandaughter]

Been AWOL a few weeks and can't believe we are on thread 107 with no real answers.
Anyone struggling like me in the UK with the links to the show discussing the case- Still a Mystery: Down the Hill, it is available on Youtube HERE

 

[gipsypup]

Looking at the maps, I can't help but feel BG is extremely familiar with the area. I feel that he definitely planned to do this that day. I can't stop the feeling that he killed them because one or both of them knew something that he didn't want to get out. Or he lured them online through a secret app to rape/kill.

Also, I thought I had read that Abby had a boyfriend? Is that true?

Lastly, I think Libby kicked her shoe off on purpose to lead searchers. Just a thought.

I still always wonder about the “couple” fighting under the bridge as described by a witness. Could it have been Abby or Libby arguing with BG/boyfriend/known male ?
If so , it’s said that the girls would stickup for each other so maybe the suspect killed both girls in a rage after an intense argument over something ? Jealousy,
need to cover something up ?.
Also , KG said 10-20 kids were there when she dropped the girls off ,but then there was a “lull” around the time the crime was committed. How would this be known for sure? All 20 kids left at the same time ? Doesn’t make sense to me. JMO.