Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #107

[tresir2012]

I doubt you’ll find a link indicating what kids were on the trail precisely what time of day, just as there’s no link stating 10 to 20 kids were on the trail the same time as Libby and Abby.

I’d presume the reason is because the general public isn’t required to know that information in order to offer than one tip which will assist LE in identifying the suspect.

Thanks, based on the further info from GH/Kelsie that @Cutiekitty provided it is a little clearer to me now. I am now wondering about the ones at the trail like the witnesses (3-4 people?), the couple under the bridge, BG/MIB and the girls. This would bring the number there that day closer to 30 IMO. I am speculating the girls were there for less than an hour (1.35 - 2.30 drop off to BG time) with perhaps only 10 mins on the bridge, 20 mins on the trail getting there 20 mins at the other end seeing BG approach from the other end and waiting not wanting to cross back with him on the bridge. When he gets there he abducts them DTH. It is a tight timeline so if they were only on the trail for about 20 mins it is a bit more understandable to me how only one witness saw them.

It does seem a big coincidence that the girls were there at the same time or close to the time that BG was there and lends credence to him somehow knowing they would be there. How he would know is just part of the puzzle. Also, he could have been there lurking and just waiting for random victims to cross too of course.

MOO.

 

[tresir2012]

good point kkdj but I don't believe we have clarification that it has not been spliced that audio.
a few commentators I respect have suggested it is spliced together.
if so its a mute point.

as i said LE are suggesting we have it all wrong.
well there isnt much to work with. so thats what i am starting to wonder.??

moo

I think there is something taken out between Guys.......down the hill.

Could be
Guys, it's private land, now get DTH
Guys, here's my badge, now get DTH
Guys, I've got a gun, so get DTH
Guys, wtf are you doing here, get DTH

MOO

 

[tresir2012]

Ok now I have read the rules properly I think this is ok to just post a link as it is a Justice for site. Mods please delete if I have misunderstood.

Seems to be a good source of info.

Justice For Abby and Libby and their families !! Public Group | Facebook

 

[Tealgrove]

Checking in as I do regularly. I CANNOT believe this "guy" still has not been identified.

I originally thought that LE had someone in mind, especially after the last PC when the "new" drawing of the younger looking suspect was released. I still think they were trying to rattle his cage, or.... maybe it was all just a ruse to shake the killer up NOT having a suspect in mind? Could they have been just trying to flush this guy out?

I don't know what to think anymore. How can this guy still be out there? We have video, a voice, and a drawing. How can he still be out there among us? I am beyond flummoxed.

Could he have moved on? Could have killed someone else? It appears he's gone off the grid.

Somebody knows this guy.

Sigh.......

 

[squareandrabbet]

I think there is something taken out between Guys.......down the hill.

Could be
Guys, it's private land, now get DTH
Guys, here's my badge, now get DTH
Guys, I've got a gun, so get DTH
Guys, wtf are you doing here, get DTH

MOO

Yeah, I agree, I hear a pause that could be a splice, in addition to the possibility that it's just a natural speaking pause. (I have a degree in radio/TV production, for whatever that is worth in the context of the discussion.)

 

[TL4S]

good point kkdj but I don't believe we have clarification that it has not been spliced that audio.
a few commentators I respect have suggested it is spliced together.
if so its a mute point.

as i said LE are suggesting we have it all wrong.
well there isnt much to work with. so thats what i am starting to wonder.??

moo

k-mac - LE's comment about the theories being wrong is significant, IMO. It's possible they are only saying that to "preserve the integrity of the investigation," but I doubt it.

I don't, personally, think BG pushed anyone off the bridge. HOWEVER, thank you for thinking outside the box. The prevailing theories are: BG abducted them at the end of the bridge and 1) directed them "down the hill" and across the creek, or 2) directed them "down the hill" and they fled across the creek. *Or some varying version of that.

If those are wrong, than there needs to be new ideas. You've suggested one, I suggested one over a week ago. I'd love to see more people come up with theories that both fit the evidence we have (the real evidence LE has given, not the fill-in-the-blanks evidence) and the idea that the current train of thought isn't the correct one.

 

[TL4S]

Yeah, I agree, I hear a pause that could be a splice, in addition to the possibility that it's just a natural speaking pause. (I have a degree in radio/TV production, for whatever that is worth in the context of the discussion.)

I think it could be spliced, too. I don't dare try to assume what was there in between, because it would only be a far reaching guess at best. The one thing that I have wondered about the audio is whether or not I'm hearing running water - lots of water. It sounds like it to me, and makes me think it all was said closer to the creek than up by the bridge. But again, I am no audio expert and can't make heads or tails from the background noise.

 

[cody22]

Possibly they went willingly with BG and/or BG had a helper under the bridge waiting ?....moo

 

[TL4S]

Possibly they went willingly with BG and/or BG had a helper under the bridge waiting ?....moo

Plus there are a lot of hills, on both sides of the creek, so we don't know which one BG was directing them down.

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

I think it could be spliced, too. I don't dare try to assume what was there in between, because it would only be a far reaching guess at best. The one thing that I have wondered about the audio is whether or not I'm hearing running water - lots of water. It sounds like it to me, and makes me think it all was said closer to the creek than up by the bridge. But again, I am no audio expert and can't make heads or tails from the background noise.

Im not even sure the audio is from the same sentence or timeframe. If it is, then Im not sure it is from instantly after the video footage. We naturally assume the link between visual and audio. ( yes, we have LE's 'shortly before criminal activity' paraph, but that could indicate anything. Abduction. Assault. Indecent exposure....etc that began the narrative of the crime)

Despite the best tech help ( im guessing audio as well as video?), it would still need a certain proximity of device and speaker imo. The two parts of the audio have very distinct tones and to my ears this is what leads me to think theyre from different periods of the horror story ( even given a 'snap' into the attack, its a huge tonal leap?)

Can anyone hear difference in technical tone or quality ( ie could one part be from a covered/hidden phone and one not? Is one part from covered phone but standing still, other moving etc?) My ears and understanding are not good enough to pick any such subtlety up.

All moo

 

[ijuswannaplay2]

I know there's some speculating that this was targeted and BG found out thru SM either directly or indirectly that the girls were going to the trails that day. What if this is true BUT it wasn't SM they found out thru but it was someone who was around the dad when he received the phone call asking to be picked up?? I don't know where he was at when they called him and couldn't find it when I went back to look. But someone could have overheard his conversation IF he was around others when getting that call. MOO

 

[squareandrabbet]

Despite the best tech help ( im guessing audio as well as video?), it would still need a certain proximity of device and speaker imo. The two parts of the audio have very distinct tones and to my ears this is what leads me to think theyre from different periods of the horror story ( even given a 'snap' into the attack, its a huge tonal leap?)

Can anyone hear difference in technical tone or quality ( ie could one part be from a covered/hidden phone and one not? Is one part from covered phone but standing still, other moving etc?) My ears and understanding are not good enough to pick any such subtlety up.

All moo

not 100% sure about any technical difference in technical sounds; except for the fact that it's clearly obvious they are outside at the time (filming outside with audio picks up every scrap of surrounding wind/breeze; an amateur filmmaker working with non-digital media wouldn't be able to filter it out, and Hollywood does a lot of processing to filter out extraneous background noise - or maybe, that should be "did". I grant that my training was in the 90s and did not encompass digital filmmaking techniques; we were all-manual).

Thoughts for why the police might not say anything/have spliced things out, include (1) "it is almost impossible to tell what the speaker is saying, surrounding the parts that we have already identified"; (2), "we are not releasing this portion because it's too upsetting for the public to hear". I tend to think it's #1, because I should think it would take some very, very upsetting dialogue indeed for the benefits of potential identification to be nullified, and I don't think at the point of "down the hill", we are at any such point.

However, what I have been avoiding saying because it is upsetting, is that I do hear a definite tonal shift in "down the hill", and have ever since it started. His syllables become more clipped and terse, and his voice thickens with his "down the hill"; because BG is excited by the prospect of the heinous things he is about to do to the girls.

 

[Imvp2]

I think there is something taken out between Guys.......down the hill.

Could be
Guys, it's private land, now get DTH
Guys, here's my badge, now get DTH
Guys, I've got a gun, so get DTH
Guys, wtf are you doing here, get DTH

MOO

MOO I hear, " Guys, (a screaming (Oh my God!) from victim?)) Down the hill."

 

[bradfordsleuth]

been reflecting on and pondering for awhile the statement LE made that everything out there is wrong. (to that effect)
so we have somethings not right. they are not prepared to share with us I guess because it may affect the investigation.
so.... *****speculative post only ***** just food for thought to throw out there.

it keeps popping into my mind maybe BG actually pushed abby off the bridge incapacitating her immediately and directing libby down the hill toward the spot where she fell and maybe the girls made a run for it from there across the creek where he could have caught them if one of them was injured.(abby) because it doesn't make sense two fit agile girls couldn't have escaped him.

its just an opinion and an idea, go easy on the shade

moo

It's a good idea to introduce thoughts here because there are so many brilliant minds working together and bouncing ideas off one another to do what they can to help put this monster in handcuffs.

JMO - I do think that there is a key element missing from the re-enactments and that LE has held this information back for a purposeful reason which ties back to the actual reason why Libby began to film BG.

I just wanted to bring up a point regarding BG pushing Abby off the bridge and with apologies, I will disagree with your speculation.

JMO - I believe that BG had a gun and that was his way to control them in whatever direction he wanted them to go, and there would be no need for him to incapacitate one of them. I believe that when this monster saw two young girls, he was further motivated by the 'challenge' of managing two victims.

MP had mentioned in one of his interviews that one of the girls may have had a chance to escape, but wouldn't have left the other girl....which likely means that they were together until the end.
'Please, we need your help': Libby German's grandfather speaks

"I imagine there was probably an opportunity for one or both to separate and probably make a break different ways," said Patty. "Those girls loved each other. They were good friends, neither left each other's side."

All JMO

 

[tresir2012]

k-mac - LE's comment about the theories being wrong is significant, IMO. It's possible they are only saying that to "preserve the integrity of the investigation," but I doubt it.

I don't, personally, think BG pushed anyone off the bridge. HOWEVER, thank you for thinking outside the box. The prevailing theories are: BG abducted them at the end of the bridge and 1) directed them "down the hill" and across the creek, or 2) directed them "down the hill" and they fled across the creek. *Or some varying version of that.

If those are wrong, than there needs to be new ideas. You've suggested one, I suggested one over a week ago. I'd love to see more people come up with theories that both fit the evidence we have (the real evidence LE has given, not the fill-in-the-blanks evidence) and the idea that the current train of thought isn't the correct one.

Well we should start with listing the evidence LE have given us.

2.30 BG on the bridge followed by criminal activity.
Video and voice
Height, weight, description, age 18-40
Girls crime scene on N side of creek
Local and/or works local
Majority of family cleared
Some DNA
Vehicle of interest
Phone and SM data
Reenactments wrong

Anything else to add?

 

[tresir2012]

I have to say that considering the wrong reenactments, the fast time that this went down, a VOI and no one hearing anything or seeing a wet muddy BG makes me think there was a vehicle at the end of the bridge. MOO

 

[TL4S]

It's a good idea to introduce thoughts here because there are so many brilliant minds working together and bouncing ideas off one another to do what they can to help put this monster in handcuffs.

JMO - I do think that there is a key element missing from the re-enactments and that LE has held this information back for a purposeful reason which ties back to the actual reason why Libby began to film BG.

I just wanted to bring up a point regarding BG pushing Abby off the bridge and with apologies, I will disagree with your speculation.

JMO - I believe that BG had a gun and that was his way to control them in whatever direction he wanted them to go, and there would be no need for him to incapacitate one of them. I believe that when this monster saw two young girls, he was further motivated by the 'challenge' of managing two victims.

MP had mentioned in one of his interviews that one of the girls may have had a chance to escape, but wouldn't have left the other girl....which likely means that they were together until the end.
'Please, we need your help': Libby German's grandfather speaks

"I imagine there was probably an opportunity for one or both to separate and probably make a break different ways," said Patty. "Those girls loved each other. They were good friends, neither left each other's side."

All JMO

The problem is we don't know if or when that opportunity could have arisen. Was it an option all the way until the end, or not?

 

[ilovechili]

Just my recollect from watching various interviews, I think the comments about other kids was made to point out Abby and Libby weren’t the only young people walking the trails that day, there were others and so it was quite typical for the trails to be a place of interest for local teens. But I don’t recall anybody ever stating they were all there the same time. It could’ve been earlier or later in the day as KG didn’t offer any additional information.

(Early on there was a lot of unreasonably harsh criticism, very cruel and hurtful remarks about the girls being allowed to visit the trails/bridge that day).

That makes sense, thank you. There would be nothing wrong with letting two 13 year olds (together, in a pair, not alone, with a phone) going to a public trail close to town which many others frequented, that criticism was unwarranted.

I did think though that I thought it was said or that I read that KG saw the other kids there when dropping the girls off. I could be wrong though.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

The problem is we don't know if or when that opportunity could have arisen. Was it an option all the way until the end, or not?

Excellent point!

This is a question we will likely never get the answer to, unless a trial happens and those details are disclosed to the public.

I wish every single day for an arrest.

Abby and Libby should be enjoying the sunny days of summer and this monster should never see daylight again.

JMO

 

[ilovechili]

I think she turned 14 on 27Dec16. Not sure though. Unless she lied about being 12. The tweet date appears to be Aug 2014.

I see now Libby was 14 when this happened going by the thread title, I was thinking they were both 13 and just barely teenagers. I had it wrong, my apologies--it was a brain blip on my part