Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #108

[tresir2012]

Can I ask, 7 months for what kind
of DNA testing?

It's been quoted as that in another county murder case, (see my signature below) so I am using that as a guide.

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

I swear at one point there was a post with a link that had an LE officer saying the attack itself was not recorded. Anyone have it?

It's from Episode 10 of the Renner series of interviews : Virtually a Detective: Case #101 Delphi.


@1m.17s

Renner : Is the attack itself on the recording?

Leazenby: Err...No.

 

[tresir2012]

MOO according to GH,
DG's first call rang but the second call went to voice mail.

From Abigail Williams & Liberty German: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com


"A woman who was at the bridgecommented on a Facebook post by a family member of one of the girls, saying she had been at the bridge shortly after the girls posted the photo. She said she didn’t notice anything out of the ordinary.

“I even walked all the way across the bridge and back. I only (saw) a guy when I first got there and another couple once I got on the bridge,” Cheyenne Mekisha Engles wrote. “I didn’t see the girls at all. I also didn’t take the trail that leads to the right. Only took the trail that lead to the bridge.” "

Cheyenne was 15 minutes ahead of the Flannel Short Guy. Who was the guy she saw?

I'm not sure she was before him because she saw DG and someone (probably his sister TG) in his car when she got there. DG had already seen FSG at that point I believe.

 

[tresir2012]

I am intrigued. How does one find this post?

It's not a post. You have to Google a bit.

 

[tresir2012]

I think she should have the right to say anything she wants. It’s been nearly 2 1/2 years and LE hasn’t figured out who did it. Any info that would hurt the case wouldn’t have been released to the family anyway, so that’s not a real risk.

Completely agree. Also, as she is under the wing of GH who liaises with LE and is an allowed source on here, I believe LE are ok with this anyway.

 

[tresir2012]

DNA is taking 7 months? It certainly can take longer recover trace DNA from an object but are you saying it takes 7 months to run a POIs DNA against a known sample?

Just answered this above.

 

[tresir2012]

Are we allowed to talk about any of the you tube posts?

Gray Hughes you tubes are allowed and so this Kelsie one is too.

 

[MingyMoo]

This is what I believe also. An arrest can only come when they have enough evidence to convict. I think LE has a main suspect but not enough evidence to convict...yet.

Tend to agree they have circumstantial evidence but no hard sure physical proof which would make their case weak if they took it to court or made an arrest

IMHO
Mingymoo

 

[Cutiekitty]

MOO according to GH,
DG's first call rang but the second call went to voice mail.

From Abigail Williams & Liberty German: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com


"A woman who was at the bridgecommented on a Facebook post by a family member of one of the girls, saying she had been at the bridge shortly after the girls posted the photo. She said she didn’t notice anything out of the ordinary.

“I even walked all the way across the bridge and back. I only (saw) a guy when I first got there and another couple once I got on the bridge,” Cheyenne Mekisha Engles wrote. “I didn’t see the girls at all. I also didn’t take the trail that leads to the right. Only took the trail that lead to the bridge.” "

Cheyenne was 15 minutes ahead of the Flannel Short Guy. Who was the guy she saw?

Thanks! The number of rings or the nature of how the phone rings can tell you if it was on/off, dead battery, etc.... I thought I read that it rang the first time then went straight to voice mail the second.

 

[TL4S]

Okay, here's my newest crazy variant of my other idea.

I can't get past the idea that the girls might not have wanted to be on the bridge with BG, either following him, or with him behind them. So I'm back to considering the girls choosing the woods, but maybe with the idea to hang out just below the bridge until he hopefully crossed back and left.

You can tell from the photo that if you were in the woods below the bridge, when the leaves are off the trees, you're visible from the bridge, especially in pink and tye-dye shirts. So maybe BG was acting weird, walking back across the bridge, but obviously watching them. With him on the bridge, they are virtually trapped.

The girls decide he isn't going to leave them alone to come back up and recross the bridge, so they cross the creek to avoid him. They would be scared, IMO, and wanting to get to their ride.

I also then wonder if once they're across the creek, they can see BG in the woods off the north end of the bridge, heading towards them. At this point they might head towards the cemetery, or whatever, but BG intercepts them, makes them go "down the hill" somewhere nearer the spot they were ultimately found.

In this scenario, BG doesn't really march them anywhere other than very close to the creek and crime scene. Much less time with him "controlling" them. For their last 30 minutes, a lot of that is them knowing they're being stalked? Just a thought...

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

Okay, here's my newest crazy variant of my other idea.

I can't get past the idea that the girls might not have wanted to be on the bridge with BG, either following him, or with him behind them. So I'm back to considering the girls choosing the woods, but maybe with the idea to hang out just below the bridge until he hopefully crossed back and left.

You can tell from the photo that if you were in the woods below the bridge, when the leaves are off the trees, you're visible from the bridge, especially in pink and tye-dye shirts. So maybe BG was acting weird, walking back across the bridge, but obviously watching them. With him on the bridge, they are virtually trapped.

The girls decide he isn't going to leave them alone to come back up and recross the bridge, so they cross the creek to avoid him. They would be scared, IMO, and wanting to get to their ride.

I also then wonder if once they're across the creek, they can see BG in the woods off the north end of the bridge, heading towards them. At this point they might head towards the cemetery, or whatever, but BG intercepts them, makes them go "down the hill" somewhere nearer the spot they were ultimately found.

In this scenario, BG doesn't really march them anywhere other than very close to the creek and crime scene. Much less time with him "controlling" them. For their last 30 minutes, a lot of that is them knowing they're being stalked? Just a thought...

Surely they would call someone , either Family or Police?

 

[TL4S]

Surely they would call someone , either Family or Police?

I've wondered about that, too. I don't know that they necessarily would have called if he was still far away. Maybe he kind of surprised them in the woods? IDK. It's not a perfect theory, for sure. But they had to have crossed the creek or bridge at some point, and I just have a hard time seeing BG marching them for any distance. I'm open to the idea that I'm completely wrong, though.

I'm also thinking that at 13 or 14, your judgement may not be the same as an adult's?

I guess I'm just willing to consider that maybe instead of BG leading them to that particular spot, from all the other spots in the woods, maybe it happened there because that's where they finally encountered him?

 

[TL4S]

Sorry for post overload. Last one...

I made this map to show how BG could have used the bridge and woods to basically trap and corner the girls. They didn't really have any other direction to go, and if they'd hung around awhile before crossing the creek, while BG was crossing back over the bridge, I think he could have caught up with them on the north side of the creek. JMO

 

[tresir2012]

Umm, okay, now we are led to believe that posting vile song lyrics no one can find, while you are at work, on the same day as a heinous double murder involving a close relative is all just a big co-winky-dink? MOO

Yes, I guess so. Just a laugh you know. We can have doubts though and that is allowed.

 

[SeattleStew]

Yes, I guess so. Just a laugh you know. We can have doubts though and that is allowed.

I promise I'm not throwing shade at you, or anyone else here! My early morning snark game is rusty. MOO.

At this point in the case, I'm willing to consider everything and everyone. IMO.

 

[tresir2012]

Sorry for post overload. Last one...

I made this map to show how BG could have used the bridge and woods to basically trap and corner the girls. They didn't really have any other direction to go, and if they'd hung around awhile before crossing the creek, while BG was crossing back over the bridge, I think he could have caught up with them on the north side of the creek. JMO

Across the bridge is about 800 feet IIRc so if he had gone back over and down the North bank to intercept then the criminal activity would not have begun for at least 10 minutes after the video of BG on the bridge. LE have said that was just before criminal activity was about to begin so I am doubtful at that time lag.

 

[tresir2012]

I promise I'm not throwing shade at you, or anyone else here! My early morning snark game is rusty. MOO.

At this point in the case, I'm willing to consider everything and everyone. IMO.

I wasn't being sarcastic. I was agreeing, sorry if it came off a bit short. Yes, we are meant to believe it was banter about song lyrics , joking around about sex with a 14 yo with one of the two in the convo being a LEO as well. Joking about statutory rape in other words. It makes me mad.

 

[TL4S]

Across the bridge is about 800 feet IIRc so if he had gone back over and down the North bank to intercept then the criminal activity would not have begun for at least 10 minutes after the video of BG on the bridge. LE have said that was just before criminal activity was about to begin so I am doubtful at that time lag.

Wouldn't stalking be criminal behavior?

 

[bradfordsleuth]

JMO
I get a sense of deja vu when I recall a specific case from 1995. I can see a few similarities to this case. Again, JMO.

Terry Driver - Wikipedia

In this case that took place in Abbotsford, B.C. in 1995 the killer broke through a hedge and used a baseball bat to control two 16 year-old girls and order them through the bush to a secluded area.

One girl was fortunate enough to survive after being badly beaten and walked herself to a hospital. The other girl was found in a river deceased that day after experiencing a brutal attack.

For months, the killer taunted LE and made phone calls to them identifying himself as the killer, used a police scanner to monitor his calls, attended the funeral of the girl he killed and even stole her tombstone.

Ultimately, a broadcast recording of the telephone calls in which the killers brother recognized his voice (his mother concurred) and his thumbprint on a tape is what led to his arrest.

JMO, but I believe the killer in the Delphi case could also have taunted LE and instigated a sharp turn in this case.

I believe that ultimately, social media is going to factor in with some of the 'mistakes' the killer made.

I do not believe that family is involved in any way at all with what happened.


JMO

 

[tresir2012]

Would s

Wouldn't stalking be criminal behavior?

Yes it would you are right. That hadn't occurred to me but they could have seen him too going back on the bridge and thought he was leaving. Crossing and recrossing the bridge isn't stalking as such, unless he had made it obvious with threatening voice or gestures in some way. That could also be why they didn't call 911, if they thought he had gone.
Good thoughts.