Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #108

[susiQ]

In a GH video I posted a few pages back, he refers to the man who DG met as wearing a plaid coat. Do you know, is that one and the same? I don’t know the origin of a man wearing a flannel shirt other than it’s often mentioned here.

I would think they are one and the same. I'm only familiar with the term FSG, have never heard of "plaid coat". Most men's flannel shirts I've come across were plaid

 

[tresir2012]

Does anyone know how to check incarceration records/release dates for Carroll County? I know I've done it before but now I can't remember where....help!

I usually look at My Case. Find the case and then look at the judgement and sentencing that can give the details. Eg sentence 356 days time served 56 days 300 days suspended etc. I don't know if there is an easier way to find out.

 

[FinePrint]

No, I know about that site but I don't see where you can look up release dates....do you?

Indiana Offender Database Search

 

[Boxer]

FSG is well known in the Delphi area. He is a trails buff and had been head off the Wabash and Erie preservation organization.

O that FSG! Thanks.

 

[ab01]

I definitely agree that there is likely a lack of physical evidence which is hampering the investigation. But, I was referring to the initial focus on some "random" killer from goodness knows where having committed these murders. I am aware of the SW executed on BBR, but it appears not long after that the focus went elsewhere, away from Delphi and area. It is obvious now that they were going in the wrong direction for over 2 years, having only in April switched gears, focusing on a local connection. MOO

Yah I'm not sure how hard they did focus on the local area before expanding nationwide, but I still think some of that had to do with the lack of information and leads. They likely investigated until they felt they were at a stalemate and then expanded out when those leads were exhausted. Although I'm sure they were still looking hard at any local connections throughout the 2 yrs IMO.

I think the new direction may have had more to do with the Georgia FBI reviewing the case and using statistic analysis to point to it likely being a perp that was somewhat local.

Additionally I believe it may have been the Georgia FBI that was convinced that YBG sketch was more accurate to what BG actually looks like JMO

Now whether BG ends up being a local and whether investigators overlooked the perp early on will be interesting to find out.

Or it could simply be that the evidence that eventually points to the perp may have been something that was just simply impossible to know by investigators early on.

If these are truly random murders, they are statistically very difficult to solve

 

[TTF14]

Indiana Offender Database Search

Yes! Thank you .

 

[bradfordsleuth]

I try to think of what kind of evidence LE could actually have.

There was a cigarette found, but that was found in the water. I'm not sure which way the current is moving or where it was found but unless it was caught up in some brush against the embankment near the crime scene I would guess it could have come from anyone, could be from a searcher who flicked it into the water while on the bridge. Possibly under garments found tangled up in some brush on the water edge...

What else could the suspect have left behind? Shoe prints, a piece of his clothing, a weapon??

Trying to word this delicately....

Partial fingerprints, anything used to bind them, a dropped receipt (he got around quickly!) also...I was wondering could the distinct smell of his cologne or aftershave on their clothing be considered evidence?

Just my own speculation and suggestions

 

[Boxer]

ATV's were used on the trails in the searches that day and evening. It's certainly not outside the realm of possibilities that the murderer used an ATV to move the bodies under cover of darkness or even pretending to be, or actually being, part of the search imo. LE were not there after midnight so they would not have known would they? I'm pretty sure the maintenance workers on the trails use ATV's too rather than schlepp all their gear around manually. MOO

An ATV parked and hidden along 625 or at the snowbirds seems a possible exit for BG. His shoes look like they are for ATV or motorcycle.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Kelsie said 10 p.m. but I am talking about the official search. Unofficial search, then anyone could and probably was out there all night - not disputing that at all, that is when the perp could have been out there hiding in plain sight IMO. In fact, he would have possibly been conspicuous by his absence, so he joined the search and could even have moved the girls then. MOO.

Kelsi is wrong and has misspoken before.

"The search for Libby and Abby was suspended around midnight, although some family and friends did continue overnight, hoping the girls had holed up somewhere as the night got colder.

Crews widened their search as soon as the sun came up, wandering further from the abandoned railroad tracks. It wasn’t long before they made a gruesome discovery".

Delphi Murders: The investigation two years later

The reason the official search was called off at midnight was because it was considered too dangerous in the dark.

"Police and volunteers took to the trail in search of Libby and Abby, but ultimately called off the search around midnight due to darkness.
Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby stated that there was no reason to be believe the girls were in immediate danger".

Heartbreaking Details About The Murders Of Liberty German And Abigail Williams, Who Recorded Their Killer Prior To Their Deaths

 

[Krwiley60]

A local, a hunter, a fisherman plus everything else you mention - murdered in plain sight is right I think. Audacious attack, pre meditated or not? IDK.

I can’t decide if the crimes were premeditated or deliberated. They are so closely intertwined.

Premeditation
Someone premeditates a crime by considering it before committing it. Premeditation requires that the defendant think out the act, no matter how quickly—it can be as simple deciding to pick up a hammer that is lying nearby and to use it as a weapon.

Deliberation
A defendant deliberates by considering the act and its consequences (but not necessarily the punishment), and deciding to follow through with it. A deliberate act isn’t provoked or carried out in the heat of passion. But that a defendant was excited or angry doesn’t mean that she didn’t deliberate.

 

[susiQ]

I try to think of what kind of evidence LE could actually have.

There was a cigarette found, but that was found in the water. I'm not sure which way the current is moving or where it was found but unless it was caught up in some brush against the embankment near the crime scene I would guess it could have come from anyone, could be from a searcher who flicked it into the water while on the bridge. Possibly under garments found tangled up in some brush on the water edge...

What else could the suspect have left behind? Shoe prints, a piece of his clothing, a weapon??

My wild guess, is he left virtually nothing unless, as I've mentioned before, the killer had reason to be there on other occasions which would allow him "plausible deniability". In such a case, even his cell tower data may not amount to evidence. I see BG literally covered from head to toe and little if any solid DNA (like under fingertips of victim). I wonder if any tips included someone having an unexpected bonfire? The lack of evidence and the short time frame from abduction to murder is also what makes me think it was not SA motivated. JMO

 

[FinePrint]

My wild guess, is he left virtually nothing unless, as I've mentioned before, the killer had reason to be there on other occasions which would allow him "plausible deniability". In such a case, even his cell tower data may not amount to evidence. I see BG literally covered from head to toe and little if any solid DNA (like under fingertips of victim). I wonder if any tips included someone having an unexpected bonfire? The lack of evidence and the short time frame from abduction to murder is also what makes me think it was not SA motivated. JMO

And as far as fingerprints I guess that is likely. I'm looking at his picture (video still) and I never really thought about if he was wearing gloves or not. If I'm not mistaken I do see the upper parts of his hands, lower (palms and fingers) in his front pockets.

 

[ab01]

My wild guess, is he left virtually nothing unless, as I've mentioned before, the killer had reason to be there on other occasions which would allow him "plausible deniability". In such a case, even his cell tower data may not amount to evidence. I see BG literally covered from head to toe and little if any solid DNA (like under fingertips of victim). I wonder if any tips included someone having an unexpected bonfire? The lack of evidence and the short time frame from abduction to murder is also what makes me think it was not SA motivated. JMO

I agree that I think the time frame is too tight for SA to have likely occurred

But I'm still thinking its possible that it was the motivation

It's possible that he underestimated the girls and his ability to control them and he killed them bc they resisted and tried to get away

If that was the case BG would have likely wanted to get out of there as quickly as possible IMO

 

[tresir2012]

Kelsi is wrong and has misspoken before.

"The search for Libby and Abby was suspended around midnight, although some family and friends did continue overnight, hoping the girls had holed up somewhere as the night got colder.

Crews widened their search as soon as the sun came up, wandering further from the abandoned railroad tracks. It wasn’t long before they made a gruesome discovery".

Delphi Murders: The investigation two years later

The reason the official search was called off at midnight was because it was considered too dangerous in the dark.

"Police and volunteers took to the trail in search of Libby and Abby, but ultimately called off the search around midnight due to darkness.
Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby stated that there was no reason to be believe the girls were in immediate danger".

Heartbreaking Details About The Murders Of Liberty German And Abigail Williams, Who Recorded Their Killer Prior To Their Deaths

Thanks for the links.

"The search for Libby and Abby was suspended around midnight, although some family and friends did continue overnight, hoping the girls had holed up somewhere as the night got colder.

The next morning they would find out how wrong they were."

So Kelsie got the time wrong? The article says "around midnight" which indicates it had started to wind down before that. Some family and friends continued overnight, I understand that too. Point is it was no longer LE coordinated, so possible crime scene contamination overnight may have occured or bodies moved WDK MOO.

 

[Krwiley60]

I'm gonna be a pain again. FSG saw BG at 2.47 . Is this after the murder DWK? Where did FSG see him? then he sees couple at 2.55. Couple of girls? Man and woman? This seems vital IMO. Have you some more info on these times? Really appreciate your input.

I have never heard before that FSG saw BG. I don’t think that is fact.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I try to think of what kind of evidence LE could actually have.

There was a cigarette found, but that was found in the water. I'm not sure which way the current is moving or where it was found but unless it was caught up in some brush against the embankment near the crime scene I would guess it could have come from anyone, could be from a searcher who flicked it into the water while on the bridge. Possibly under garments found tangled up in some brush on the water edge...

What else could the suspect have left behind? Shoe prints, a piece of his clothing, a weapon??

Some media articles reported that a cigarette was found in the creek and was (?) about 2 days old. Likewise, underwear was also allegedly found in the creek, but LE has never stated what was recovered.

We can only speculate what other evidence they may have but it could also include, for example, rope or duct tape. We know LE has DNA but that doesn't mean it has to be that of the killer. There could be many legitimate reasons why other people's DNA could be on either the girls or their clothing as Abby was wearing a jacket/sweatshirt she had borrowed from Libby and there were a number of people living in the Patty's home. LE have made it quite clear that they do not wish to discuss what evidence they have to protect the integrity of the case.

 

[HockeyMom330]

Trying to word this delicately....

Partial fingerprints, anything used to bind them, a dropped receipt (he got around quickly!) also...I was wondering could the distinct smell of his cologne or aftershave on their clothing be considered evidence?

Just my own speculation and suggestions

Just adding that if BG owns a pet such as a cat or dog it is possible that pet hairs transfered from his clothing to the girls' clothing/bodies.

 

[MistyWaters]

I definitely agree that there is likely a lack of physical evidence which is hampering the investigation. But, I was referring to the initial focus on some "random" killer from goodness knows where having committed these murders. I am aware of the SW executed on BBR, but it appears not long after that the focus went elsewhere, away from Delphi and area. It is obvious now that they were going in the wrong direction for over 2 years, having only in April switched gears, focusing on a local connection. MOO

Yes for some unknown reason much of the initial focus appeared to be upon somebody just passing through. Maybe it’s similar to NIMBY. From Logansport to Lafayette, that’s over 40 miles and surely must’ve added a lot of potential suspects walking somewhere who resembled the photo as opposed to primary concentration on local activity within the immediate Delphi area. It wouldn’t surprise me if the OG sketch was a result of this early ask as well.

Feb 20, 2017
“We are asking people that were driving through the Hoosier heartland that might have seen a hitchhiker or saw somebody walking. We are asking people in Logansport all the way to Lafayette if they saw somebody around that late afternoon on February 13 walking down the roadway. We would like to know about that person,” said Indiana State Police Sgt. Kim Riley.”
All-out manhunt underway for main suspect in murders of two Delphi teens

 

[ab01]

Thanks for the links.

"The search for Libby and Abby was suspended around midnight, although some family and friends did continue overnight, hoping the girls had holed up somewhere as the night got colder.

The next morning they would find out how wrong they were."

So Kelsie got the time wrong? The article says "around midnight" which indicates it had started to wind down before that. Some family and friends continued overnight, I understand that too. Point is it was no longer LE coordinated, so possible crime scene contamination overnight may have occured or bodies moved WDK MOO.

I'm curious why you think the bodies were moved?

Because the searchers didn't find them until the next day?

It's been noted through MSM, family members, searchers etc that the primary focus of the initial search was the trails and the area immidiately connected to the bridge.

They simply had not moved east at that point and searched that area where they were ultimately found. Its not as if Searchers simply walked over that area and they wern't there

The bodies were located in an area 1/2 mile away around a sharp bend of Deer creek and was not likely able to be seen from where early searches were conducted.

There were also early reports that the cell phones were pinging all around town and now based on what many have said, LE, The family members etc that almost certainly was not the case either.

Why are we so certain that the bodies must have been moved?

Everything about this crime points to a perp that committed a terrible crime and got out of there as quickly as possible

It was in a public place, he likely knew he didn't have much time and trying to sneak back in to place the bodies where people would likely be searching would have been extremely risky, He already couldn't be certain that he was in the clear as far as somebody seeing or hearing something from the initial attack. But he was going to risk taking bodies back to that same area rather than dumping them somewhere where nobody would even think to look?

The scenario is just not plausible and as @MassGuy has noted before, it would be extremely unlikely for any killer to bring bodies back to the initial scene of the crime after they already had left.

 

[TL4S]

Just adding that if BG owns a pet such as a cat or dog it is possible that pet hairs transfered from his clothing to the girls' clothing/bodies.

I've mentioned this before, and animal hair often has DNA because they lick themselves. Animal DNA has been used as evidence.