Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #108

[Cutiekitty]

JABARN, snipping from your post, "The second is he had information the girls would be there, whatever way, and planned a sabotage. Means= he tricked one or both, or someone known to them, or had prior understanding of their plans.."
I remember some adults looking for two teens on a TV show and one adult asked, "Where do you think they are?" and the other replied, "They are in the cafeteria....they just posted a picture of their pizza on SC." Wow, is that possible? If Libby had just posted a picture of them on the bridge to SC, can anyone who has their phone number or tied into their account see they were on the bridge? And if the perp was close by, or heading home....say the picture on the bridge and could be there in say, uhm, 20 minutes? (I would love to hear from parents who have kids who SC everything from their toothpaste to their household pets.)

Yes. They could’ve seen the snap and known where they were if LG added them. It was posted to her story and I believe KG said LG posted it to her story.

 

[IQuestion]

I was by no means wanting it to sound like I was bad mouthing LE, FD, I just really think after reading that Amber Alert criteria, they should have issued it. Whether it would have made a difference in possible info coming in to catch a killer, only God knows.

Oh SUNSHINERAY, perish the thought!!! You are not criticizing LE. Au contraire, I am the one who is so terribly conflicted and rehashing my feelings of "should have, would have, could have." I was wondering the very same thing...but got a little emotional and teary eyed thinking about the community and all their efforts. I'm the first person who would scream "Call out the state troopers." I apologize profusely if I came across in a negative manner...you are a ray of sunshine and a voice of reason in a case that makes no sense. IQ

 

[Cutiekitty]

I hope we will all be too overcome with relief if there were to be an arrest, to even worry about who was right or wrong.

I know I will! Everyday I check to see if there has been an arrest. One day I won’t be disappointed.

 

[susiQ]

So many thoughts have been shared here involving the motive, modus and opportunity. I am of two thoughts, each separated based on the means, motive and opportunity.

The first is he was a hunter (possibly a repeat offender) waiting for a situation to present itself, and either way, moved on before or after the dust settled. Means= he corralled them, motive = sexual/control/murder, and opportunity = they crossed his path.

The second is he had information the girls would be there, whatever way, and planned a sabotage. Means= he tricked one or both, or someone known to them, or had prior understanding of their plans, motive= revenge, sexual/control/murder, and opportunity=he was aware the girls would be there.

I'm inclined to go with the "second" scenario.

 

[ab01]

One of the main questions in the case of Abigail Williams and Liberty German is: Did they know their killer?

If you know someone or have communicated with them online, I think you would refer to them by their first name. So how many times during the recording does the killer refer to Abby or Libby by their first name?

The term "guys" always had me leaning towards the idea that they did not know their killer. But this is based off what audio has been released. If they did know their killer that changes the whole dynamic of the case for me. Again, all anyone can do is speculate without more information.

If it was somebody that the girls knew, well we wouldn’t be still here speculating imo

The longer a case like this goes unsolved, the more likely it is that there is no obvious connection

Sure he was probably stalking them etc, but I’m talking about whether or not the victims had any idea who he was.

I don’t believe that they had any idea who he was other than just some creepy dude that was following them

Jmo

 

[susiQ]

As far as I know they don't issue them unless a car was involved.

Are you saying that if an estranged, deranged spouse takes off with a child in a bus or train because they don't own a car, LE will not issue an Amber Alert??

 

[susiQ]

If it was somebody that the girls knew, well we wouldn’t be still here speculating imo

The longer a case like this goes unsolved, the more likely it is that there is no obvious connection

Sure he was probably stalking them etc, but I’m talking about whether or not the victims had any idea who he was.

I don’t believe that they had any idea who he was other than just some creepy dude that was following them

Jmo

Your post got me thinking. At a distance, I doubt the girls recognized who BG was, yet closer up, did they, or at least one of them, perhaps recognize the face? That doesn't necessarily mean they "knew" him. I recognize a lot of people and don't really know them having seen them with someone I did know. If you recognized the individual as having been with someone you knew well and trusted, you may be inclined to "do as you've been told." Even if they had no idea who BG was, that also doesn't preclude BG knowing who they were. JMO

 

[Boxer]

Are you saying that if an estranged, deranged spouse takes off with a child in a bus or train because they don't own a car, LE will not issue an Amber Alert??

Yes, if they know the vehicle and they haven't stopped it yet.

 

[Krwiley60]

DBM

 

[Jazzy5980]

Are you saying that if an estranged, deranged spouse takes off with a child in a bus or train because they don't own a car, LE will not issue an Amber Alert??

Attached are the US Dept of Justice Guidelines for issuance of an Amber Alert
AMBER Alert - Guidelines

 

[MistyWaters]

Are you saying that if an estranged, deranged spouse takes off with a child in a bus or train because they don't own a car, LE will not issue an Amber Alert??

According to this below, an Amber Alert requires at least some kind of information to assist in locating the abducted child. If a spouse took a child on a bus or train, then that location would be known.

In the Delphi case, absolutely nothing was known other than the girls were missing.

A Silver Alert was issued for a missing 8-month-old. Here's why it wasn't an Amber Alert.

While many cases seem to fit the Amber Alert model on the surface, the service has strict criteria that must be met before such an alert can be issued........

• The child must be believed to be abducted and in danger of serious bodily harm or death.

• There must be enough descriptive information, such as detailed suspect information or information about where the missing child may be located, to believe the broadcast will help.

 

[susiQ]

Attached are the US Dept of Justice Guidelines for issuance of an Amber Alert
AMBER Alert - Guidelines

According to this below, an Amber Alert requires at least some kind of information to assist in locating the abducted child. If a spouse took a child on a bus or train, then that location would be known.

In the Delphi case, absolutely nothing was known other than the girls were missing.

A Silver Alert was issued for a missing 8-month-old. Here's why it wasn't an Amber Alert.

While many cases seem to fit the Amber Alert model on the surface, the service has strict criteria that must be met before such an alert can be issued........

• The child must be believed to be abducted and in danger of serious bodily harm or death.

• There must be enough descriptive information, such as detailed suspect information or information about where the missing child may be located, to believe the broadcast will help.

Thank you both for the links!

 

[CCJD]

Are you saying that if an estranged, deranged spouse takes off with a child in a bus or train because they don't own a car, LE will not issue an Amber Alert??

Jazzy5980 beat me to the punch posting the link for the guidelines but...

Here's a case where an Amber Alert was issued and the child was found with her non-custodial mother and a man at a bus stop. The mother was, however, last seen driving a car.

4-month-old found with mom at bus stop, Amber Alert canceled

Would they have issued an Amber Alert without the car? Can't say for sure but one thing they did have was a good description of the abductor - something they didn't have for Abby and Libby.

 

[susiQ]

Jazzy5980 beat me to the punch posting the link for the guidelines but...

Here's a case where an Amber Alert was issued and the child was found with her non-custodial mother and a man at a bus stop. The mother was, however, last seen driving a car.

4-month-old found with mom at bus stop, Amber Alert canceled

Would they have issued an Amber Alert without the car? Can't say for sure but one thing they did have was a good description of the abductor - something they didn't have for Abby and Libby.

Thank you @CCJD! I think I understand now

 

[MJPeony]

Your post got me thinking. At a distance, I doubt the girls recognized who BG was, yet closer up, did they, or at least one of them, perhaps recognize the face? That doesn't necessarily mean they "knew" him. I recognize a lot of people and don't really know them having seen them with someone I did know. If you recognized the individual as having been with someone you knew well and trusted, you may be inclined to "do as you've been told." Even if they had no idea who BG was, that also doesn't preclude BG knowing who they were. JMO

I’ve always leaned toward BG knowing the girls in some fashion as opposed to a random attack in wrong place/wrong time. And various reasons for my leaning that way. But I totally agree that the girls could have not immediately recognized him- but then could have once he was closer and spoke to them. As we’ve discussed, he looks well-covered and “incognito” of sorts.

The supposed comments that the girls made on tape about some guy could be all manner of things, but even IF they found this guy concerning, or creepy, it does not preclude the possibility that they just did not recognize him yet.

MOO.

 

[MistyWaters]

Ironically - an Amber Alert was issued on the very same day, Feb 13, 2017, for another missing 15 year old girl in Indiana who was believed to be in extreme danger after her mother was found dead.
Amber Alert issued for missing 15-year-old girl in Gary

But the circumstances proved quite different. She was later charged and convicted for her mother’s murder and LE were later criticized for using Amber Alert as a ruse to assist in locating her.
Teen daughter gets 45 years in 2017 stabbing death of her mother in Gary

 

[BNA]

If it was somebody that the girls knew, well we wouldn’t be still here speculating imo

The longer a case like this goes unsolved, the more likely it is that there is no obvious connection

Sure he was probably stalking them etc, but I’m talking about whether or not the victims had any idea who he was.

I don’t believe that they had any idea who he was other than just some creepy dude that was following them

Jmo

I am thinking that, once he got close, at least one of them knew who he was.....recognized him.

That is not the same as saying that either one of them knew him.

And, I agree with your first sentence. If they knew him, others in their circle would likely know him as well, and this case would be long-solved. I say this without any knowledge of how big of a circle they had....but, with one in the band, and another playing sports, it had to have some size to it

 

[MJPeony]

I am thinking that, once he got close, at least one of them knew who he was.....recognized him.

That is not the same as saying that either one of them knew him.

And, I agree with your first sentence. If they knew him, others in their circle would likely know him as well, and this case would be long-solved. I say this without any knowledge of how big of a circle they had....but, with one in the band, and another playing sports, it had to have some size to it

BBM- this right here is where I’m at.

 

[sunshineray]

As far as I know they don't issue them unless a car was involved.

I found this...
"The child must be age 17 years or younger. Law enforcement must believe the child is in danger of serious bodily harm or death. There is enough descriptive information about the child, abductor, and/or suspect's vehicle to believe an immediate broadcast alert will help."
So it's seems it's and/or as far as a car description goes but it seems a description of an abductor is needed? Descriptive information on just the child who's missing is not enough I guess.

AMBER Alert - Guidelines

 

[sunshineray]

Oh SUNSHINERAY, perish the thought!!! You are not criticizing LE. Au contraire, I am the one who is so terribly conflicted and rehashing my feelings of "should have, would have, could have." I was wondering the very same thing...but got a little emotional and teary eyed thinking about the community and all their efforts. I'm the first person who would scream "Call out the state troopers." I apologize profusely if I came across in a negative manner...you are a ray of sunshine and a voice of reason in a case that makes no sense. IQ

IQ, I didn't mean that to sound like you were saying I was. I just wanted to make it clear on my own. It's so hard to think about well if this had been done or if only they'd done that. I feel the conflict also so when I voice things sometimes I feel angst about it afterwards. Thank you for your kind words. You're a kind soul, no need for apologies.