NE - 4 Teenage Girls Die in Fiery Single Vehicle Automobile Crash, 5th Burned, Gretna, 17 June 2019

[TristanP]

I don't agree with underage kids drinking at home either.
Let me ask you this.
Let's say for conversation sake that it was a kid in his stupid stage that took alcohol from his parents stash and gave it to these girls. Is it the adults job to take care and protect him/her then?

If a teen stole his/her parents’ alcohol and distributed it to his/her friends, then he/she should be held accountable for providing alcohol to minors, and any other charges that stem from that.

If the parents discovered their teen had done this before the other teens left the house, then it would be their responsibility to contact the parents of the other teens and make sure they know their children have been drinking and need a safe way home. If they knowingly allowed the kids to leave while drunk, then they should also be held accountable for the outcome even if they didn’t provide the alcohol.

 

[Snick1946]

FWIW: Mods please note posts #74 and 75 are duplicates, one needs to be deleted.

One thing that needs factoring in is that once LE charges someone it won't end with them being fined or sentenced. I would expect substantial civil penalties in the form of lawsuits, probably from every family who lost someone. Somebody could be looking at financial ruin.

I suspect LE has a pretty good idea who is at fault here. I hope this doesn't drag on much longer.
"Don't Snitch' is not a motto to be proud of as a city and that is the impression Gretna is making for themselves now.

 

[Rocky1]

If a teen stole his/her parents’ alcohol and distributed it to his/her friends, then he/she should be held accountable for providing alcohol to minors, and any other charges that stem from that.

If the parents discovered their teen had done this before the other teens left the house, then it would be their responsibility to contact the parents of the other teens and make sure they know their children have been drinking and need a safe way home. If they knowingly allowed the kids to leave while drunk, then they should also be held accountable for the outcome even if they didn’t provide the alcohol.

Snipped:

If the parents discovered their teen had done this before the other teens left the house, then it would be their responsibility to contact the parents of the other teens and make sure they know their children have been drinking and need a safe way home.

Interesting. I don't see any mention of calling the police and reporting this crime. Why is that?

 

[Rocky1]

I posed this scenario to my 18 yo.....

He takes alcohol fron my home
Gives alcohol to his underage friends
Friends drink, then get in a wreck resulting in injuries and/ or death.
I then find i it was him who provided the alcohol.

Should I protect him by hiding that fact? Should I not allow him to speak to LE? Should I keep quiet about it all.

His response was NO, I should not cover for him in any way. I should get him legal help BUT he would need to take responsibility for what he did. I should not try to keep him from talking to LE.

Snipped:
I should not try to keep him from talking to LE.

I am no way saying you are right or wrong. I am asking these questions for no other reason but to open this thread to conversation.
Your 18 year old was a minor a few months ago. I'm sure your kid is smart, but his brain is not fully developed at 18.

Here's a snip from the Journal Of Law And Criminal Justice.
You may want to consider reading this before you send your kid into the police station.

Juveniles often lack the legal sophistication and cognitive necessary to cope successfully with police officers seeking to interrogate them. They are often unable to understand the substance of their Miranda rights and do not appreciate the ramifications of waving their rights. Many juveniles do not even comprehend that a lawyer is supposed to act as an advocate for them and protect their interests. This lack of capacity and understanding has resulted in a number of tragic cases where the juveniles waved their rights and were coerced into falsely implicating crimes they did not commit. This article seeks to provide parents with an understanding of their children's legal rights as well as concrete advice about how to protect their children from adverse encounters with law enforcement.
http://jlcjnet.com/journals/jlcj/Vol_2_No_1_March_2014/14.pdf

 

[Rocky1]

I am glad you asked this question. I do NOT think an adult should be held responsible for a child (or someone else's child) stealing something from them. I have mixed feelings about what should happen to a child who does so. Perhaps they should be charged with a minor offense resulting in community service. In no way do I think a minor child should go to jail for something like this, especially if they stole from their own parents, and all of their friends were killed. This is JMO.

The parents can be charged with a class one misdemeanor... one year in jail, and a $1,000 fine max, regardless if they knew the minor stole the alcohol or not.
The minor that furnished/procured the alcohol?... Class three felony, which means he/she can be tried as an adult, which means the record cannot be sealed. That means after prison,( for not one count, but four counts because although the fourth wasn't killed, she was still seriously harmed) this minor will never be able to vote, obtain certain trade licenses, will never be able to carry a gun, travel to many countries like Canada for example, will have his/her employment affected, may not be able to adopt children, can never serve on a jury, may have trouble obtaining a loan, and will be denied public social benefits.

Nebraska Legislature (section 2)

 

[Redux]

'Hypothetically speaking, how do you feel about parents who let drinking alcohol occur at their house but don’t stop 5 teenagers from leaving in a car that then crashes at 90 mph and becomes an incinerator for 4 of the occupants, while the only survivor is the only survivor simply because she also broke a law by not wearing a seatbelt and was thrown from the car?'

FWIW, that is my theory of what happened here. I've done a lot of reading between the lines of comments made here and on other discussion boards from locals. It's almost unfathomable to me that any parent would place their child and others in danger just to be popular but I worry that is what happened. In time, we'll see; I hope I'm wrong.

BBM

Not that it matters, but just to clarify, this article states that none of the girls were wearing seatbelts.

Reward grows for information about alcohol in Gretna crash

The teenagers were not wearing seat belts at the time of the crash, officials said.

 

[Rocky1]

BBM

Not that it matters, but just to clarify, this article states that none of the girls were wearing seatbelts.

Reward grows for information about alcohol in Gretna crash

I'm not sure if I am alone here, but when I first heard that, it really caught my attention. Why?
When most kids that age get in a car, the very first thing they do is to buckle up. They do that like they would put their shoes on before going outside in the winter. In fact, most kids that age would remind another in the car to buckle up if they haven't for some reason.
Then, there's that annoying chime that keeps going off every 15 seconds or so that reminds you to buckle up if you haven't.
I could see maybe one or two passengers not having their seat belt on, but all 5?
It has me thinking.

 

[Snick1946]

Has me thinking, too. Not sure what it suggests although I kind of dimly begin to see what you might be saying Intriguing.

 

[Snick1946]

Could they have disabled the seat belt chime on this car in order to 'ride the bumps' on this road? I think this was a 2017 Ford fusion, is that possible on that model?

 

[Rocky1]

Could they have disabled the seat belt chime on this car in order to 'ride the bumps' on this road? I think this was a 2017 Ford fusion, is that possible on that model?

Yes, The seat belt chime can be disabled on that model. It takes about a minute to do so for each side, and it's not complicated. I just find it odd that anyone that age would do that.
Perhaps they were "riding the bumps"
When this first happened, I went over that road on Google Earth, and although it's hard to tell, there didn't seem to be that many bumps to ride.
Even the one that they last went over didn't seem that steep, but after watching different television videos, you can see that it was.
I'm not sure how far it is from the crash site to I 80, but I'm guessing maybe 3 or 4 miles, and in that distance, there are very few trees, and I'd have to look again, but I believe no guard rails. It's all flat cornfield. I remember thinking that any other place on that road they may have gone off, they would have probably ended up on the middle of a corn field, uninjured.

 

[al66pine]

Seat Belt Use - Automatic?

....When most kids that age get in a car, the very first thing they do is to buckle up. They do that like they would put their shoes on before going outside in the winter. In fact, most kids that age would remind another in the car to buckle up ...

^snipped for focus. @Rocky1. Thanks for your post. Belting in should be that automatic ---like shoes in winter. But, lemme 'fix' one point for you: When most kids that age get in a car, the very first thing the responsible drivers & passengers do is to buckle up.

Seems a huuuuuge number of ppl do not automatically buckle in. Ppl of all ages. Ppl who are otherwise conscientious drivers. Well educated ppl. Ppl w STEM-type careers who presumably believe in scientific studies. Law-aiding (otherwise) ppl. All kinds of ppl.

Excuses: I was in a hurry. I didn't want to wrinkle my clothing. It was a short drive to the grocery. Speed limit was 35 mph, so I wasn't going fast at all. My office/school is only 5 minutes from my house. And my favorite: But I've never had an accident.

Who can have this ^ mind-set, after 50+ yrs of studies by Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, NHSTA, et al, show properly used restraint/belts save lives? Will any amt of info change minds and habits? Maybe this tragedy will. I hope so. All jmo.

Sad, sad, sad, for families, friends, school mates, the whole community.

O/T. Historical lagniappe:
Thru mid-1960's, IIRC, cars from US manufacturers came w seat belts optional, and they were lap belts only. In buying a new 1965 car, my parents requested dealer installation of seat belts before delivery. A neighbor said - why go to that expense? <<< LOL. Anyway even before reaching driving age, I developed the habit early on.

 

[Rocky1]

Seat Belt Use - Automatic?


^snipped for focus. @Rocky1. Thanks for your post. Belting in should be that automatic ---like shoes in winter. But, lemme 'fix' one point for you: When most kids that age get in a car, the very first thing the responsible drivers & passengers do is to buckle up.

Seems a huuuuuge number of ppl do not automatically buckle in. Ppl of all ages. Ppl who are otherwise conscientious drivers. Well educated ppl. Ppl w STEM-type careers who presumably believe in scientific studies. Law-aiding (otherwise) ppl. All kinds of ppl.

Excuses: I was in a hurry. I didn't want to wrinkle my clothing. It was a short drive to the grocery. Speed limit was 35 mph, so I wasn't going fast at all. My office/school is only 5 minutes from my house. And my favorite: But I've never had an accident.

Who can have this ^ mind-set, after 50+ yrs of studies by Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, NHSTA, et al, show properly used restraint/belts save lives? Will any amt of info change minds and habits? Maybe this tragedy will. I hope so. All jmo.

Sad, sad, sad, for families, friends, school mates, the whole community.

O/T. Historical lagniappe:
Thru mid-1960's, IIRC, cars from US manufacturers came w seat belts optional, and they were lap belts only. In buying a new 1965 car, my parents requested dealer installation of seat belts before delivery. A neighbor said - why go to that expense? <<< LOL. Anyway even before reaching driving age, I developed the habit early on.

Good post.
I'll be the first to admit that it took seat belt laws to get me in the habit of buckling up. Years of watching PSA's on TV wasn't enough. I know it's the smart thing to do on average, but I just don't like them, and it took a long time to get use to doing so.
Having said that. I am also a pilot. The very first thing that I do when I get in an airplane, is to buckle my seat belt, and make sure that my passengers are belted in as well. I was trained that way, and I've done it so often that it's become automatic. I've never once forgot to do it.
Maybe I am wrong, but I was thinking along the lines that these kids were trained to buckle up from the beginning, and like myself when flying, having it become such an automatic thing to do, would never forget.

 

[MyBelle]

I believe you stated in your previous post that you'd hire a lawyer because this teen can be prosecuted for obstruction of justice.

Snipped:
The surviving teen can be prosecuted for obstruction of justice so I don't blame her parents for getting her a lawyer. I would do the same thing if it were my daughter. Hopefully, other teens have learned from this tragedy. It has certainly been in the local news headlines daily.

Why bother hiring a lawyer if, in your words "I'd know she was going to be held accountable by the courts whether she cooperated or not ?"
The job of the Lawyer is to find any loophole possible so you are not held accountable by the courts. The first thing the lawyer is going to tell you to keep your mouth shut. Is that cooperating?

What's wrong with cops using scare tactics and lying?
In the eyes of the law, nothing, however, I think it's also not wrong for people to be educated as to when cops are lying and when they are not.
In this case, they are lying. There is no way that this teen, nor her mother can be prosecuted for obstruction of justice for not talking to the cops. The mother can not be prosecuted because she told her daughter not to talk.
On the other hand, if they talk to the cops, and lie about the details about what happened that night, trying to cover up something, then they can be charged with obstruction.

Should cops behave differently because of age and gender?
Gender, no.
Age, absolutely, and the supreme court thinks so too.

Gallegos v Colorado.
A juvenile cannot be compared to an adult “in full possession of his senses and knowledgeable of the consequences of his admissions.” Gallegos v. Colorado, 370 U.S. 49 (1962).

FindLaw's United States Supreme Court case and opinions.

BBM. The entire point of hiring a lawyer for a minor is because cops can and do lie. afaik, the mother has never been named a suspect and I'm not sure why you think she is a suspect. Juveniles are prosecuted as adults in Nebraska and I doubt this case will be any different.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

If a teen stole his/her parents’ alcohol and distributed it to his/her friends, then he/she should be held accountable for providing alcohol to minors, and any other charges that stem from that.

If the parents discovered their teen had done this before the other teens left the house, then it would be their responsibility to contact the parents of the other teens and make sure they know their children have been drinking and need a safe way home. If they knowingly allowed the kids to leave while drunk, then they should also be held accountable for the outcome even if they didn’t provide the alcohol.

ITA. Holding teens and parents accountable has been the norm in NE for decades.

JMO

 

[al66pine]

Stats on Teens' Seat Belt Usage, Driver & Passengers

....I am also a pilot. The very first thing that I do when I get in an airplane, is to buckle my seat belt .... was trained that way, and ... become automatic. I've never once forgot to do it. .... I was thinking along the lines that these kids were trained to buckle up from the beginning, ... an automatic thing to do, would never forget.

snipped for focus. @Rocky1 ^ agreeing w your post. Seems like it should work that way, but I doubt that is uniformly true.
Risk Factor tab at link*
"Compared with other age groups, teens have among the lowest rates of seat belt use. In 2017, only 59% of high school students reported they always wear seat belts when riding as passengers."
{{{ ^ this is based upon self-reporting! If study sponsors could have actually observed teen seat belt usage, how much higher would % be? <<This, jmo.}}}

"In 2016, 58% of drivers aged 15 to 20 who were killed in motor vehicle crashes after drinking and driving were not wearing a seat belt."

I wonder whether seat belt usage would have prevented these deaths or the serious injury in this situation. IDK.
____________________________________________________________
* Teen Drivers: Get the Facts | Motor Vehicle Safety | CDC Injury Center

 

[Rocky1]

BBM. The entire point of hiring a lawyer for a minor is because cops can and do lie. afaik, the mother has never been named a suspect and I'm not sure why you think she is a suspect. Juveniles are prosecuted as adults in Nebraska and I doubt this case will be any different.

JMO

Snipped from your previous posts:

What's wrong with scare tactics? Cops use scare tactics, including lying, with adults.
The entire point of hiring a lawyer for a minor is because cops can and do lie.

ITA. Holding teens and parents accountable has been the norm in NE for decades.

You seem to think it's fine for cops to lie and use scare tactics on one hand, yet you'd hire a lawyer because cops can and do lie?
I'm confused.

If holding teens accountable is the norm in NE, then why not just skip the lawyer and send the teen in the police station to own up? As I stated, The lawyers job is to find a loophole so said teen would not be held accountable.
Again, I am confused.

I never said the mother is a suspect. I have watched several news broadcasts that stated "anyone that withholds information or doesn't come forward can be charged with obstruction." The DA said that. She's the one that said the mother can be held responsible for obstruction of justice. That's not true.
The mother (and many other parents) told their kids not to speak to the cops. There is nothing legally wrong with that.


Snipped:
Juveniles are prosecuted as adults in Nebraska and I doubt this case will be any different.

In felony cases yes, but it depends on the juveniles age.
This will be a felony charge,(if there are charges) because the result was death and serious bodily injury, but we are not sure if a minor(s) were involved yet, or not.

 

[Rocky1]

Stats on Teens' Seat Belt Usage, Driver & Passengers

snipped for focus. @Rocky1 ^ agreeing w your post. Seems like it should work that way, but I doubt that is uniformly true.
Risk Factor tab at link*
"Compared with other age groups, teens have among the lowest rates of seat belt use. In 2017, only 59% of high school students reported they always wear seat belts when riding as passengers."
{{{ ^ this is based upon self-reporting! If study sponsors could have actually observed teen seat belt usage, how much higher would % be? <<This, jmo.}}}

"In 2016, 58% of drivers aged 15 to 20 who were killed in motor vehicle crashes after drinking and driving were not wearing a seat belt."

I wonder whether seat belt usage would have prevented these deaths or the serious injury in this situation. IDK.
____________________________________________________________
* Teen Drivers: Get the Facts | Motor Vehicle Safety | CDC Injury Center

Snipped:
I wonder whether seat belt usage would have prevented these deaths or the serious injury in this situation. IDK.

IDK either, but we do know in this case anyway that the lack of using a seat belt saved one life.
The car catching fire reduced their chances by a long shot.
Being thrown forward into an airbag while the airbag is throwing you backwards can cause some serious neck injuries, although by the looks of the skid marks, it appears to me anyway they they slid into the guard rail sideways?

 

[al66pine]

Minors at the Time"?
"Deputies said they have two persons of interest they want to talk to regarding the crash. Officials said those individuals were “minors at the time” during a Wednesday morning news conference." *

LE wants to talk to two specific individuals, who were minors June 18 (crash date?).
Is one of the two of age as of July 26? Are both now of age as of July 26?
So did one have a birthday btwn June 18 & July 26? Or both?

Maybe I'm interp'ing this incorrectly. Other interps, pls? Thx in adv.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
*. Reward grows for information about alcohol in Gretna crash
pub July 26

 

[Snick1946]

I cannot locate it now but I know I saw an article about one of the victim's moms speaking out for this code of silence to end. I do remember which parent but will not name them as I don't have documentation. While looking for it I ran across this article I'd not seen previously:

'We are devastated:' Mother of driver in deadly crash that killed four teens heartbroken

Near the end there is an interesting comment. None of the girls cellphones indicated they had been at the party alluded to.

 

[CCmakes3]

I cannot locate it now but I know I saw an article about one of the victim's moms speaking out for this code of silence to end. I do remember which parent but will not name them as I don't have documentation.

This is true. I don't really want to name her either, as my husband is a friend of her husband, but she has shared the reward information and a quote from the Sheriff on her facebook page.