GUILTY NY - Phoenix & Luna Rodriguez, 1, twins, die in hot car, Bronx, 26 July 2019 *No jail*

[blue22]

I hadn't seen this before

Several witnesses reported that the father had been spotted minutes earlier outside of the Caridad Restaurant on West Kingsbridge Road, across the street from the V.A. Hospital.

Father Charged With Homicide After 1-Year-Old Twins Die In Hot Car

I've never read that. Interesting.

 

[Inthedetails]

Do you know where the employee parking is at the hospital?

I am familiar with the neighborhood in a general way, but I don't know where the hospital employees park in the lot.

jmo

 

[Gardenista]

I am familiar with the neighborhood in a general way, but I don't know where the hospital employees park in the lot.

jmo

This map doesn't have staff parking marked, but does have patient parking marked

Facility Map - James J. Peters VA Medical Center

 

[Inthedetails]

This map doesn't have staff parking marked, but does have patient parking marked

Facility Map - James J. Peters VA Medical Center

My guess would be that staff parking is in the lots beyond the patient parking lots, the lots closest to "main gate." All of those lots are within the grounds of the hospital.

 

[Trident]

Whoa, didn't expect this. At the risk of sounding stupid, what exactly does this mean?

 

[mickey2942]

My guess would be that staff parking is in the lots beyond the patient parking lots, the lots closest to "main gate." All of those lots are within the grounds of the hospital.

This is interesting. I would like to know where he parked. At the VA, employees are constantly coming and going. And usually you do glance inside of people's cars, incidentally. If anyone had seen 2 babies, it would have been reported. Unless the car was parked in a very remote location. Also, VA police officers usually do routine checks on the parking lots. Sure, they just cruise around in their vehicles, but there is a presence.

 

[PayrollNerd]

When the older child was dropped off at his daycare that morning, were there cameras at the entrance? Did Dad normally walk his son inside or just go thru a drop off loop? Not that the camera would show the twins thru the tinted glass of course. Did Dad leave the car running with the twins inside while he walked the older boy inside?

I’m thinking about what is the normal routine. What would trigger an episode of such forgetfulness? At work was there a high stress task, meeting, or event that he needed to rush off to? Had there been chaos at home that morning? Who buckled the babies in that day? Were they always quiet on the drive?

In the parking lot, as Dad exited the car, he likely wouldn’t have physically turned toward the rear seats if he pulled thru the parking space. (Meaning as he left for the day, he wouldn’t need to reverse the car, simply pull out). If he pulled into a parking space, and needed to pass the rear of the car, a dark tint combined with possible morning shade would have decreased visibility of the car seats.

 

[Gardenista]

I’m thinking about what is the normal routine. What would trigger an episode of such forgetfulness?

Below is what he says happened. I'd really like to get a map with all of the pertinent locations on it.

But in Yonkers, Shecter said, there was construction. Juan Rodriguez would have to go one highway exit back from where he usually got off and backtrack.

What happened the day Phoenix and Luna Rodriguez were left in their dad's hot car and died?

 

[Inthedetails]

This is interesting. I would like to know where he parked. At the VA, employees are constantly coming and going. And usually you do glance inside of people's cars, incidentally. If anyone had seen 2 babies, it would have been reported. Unless the car was parked in a very remote location. Also, VA police officers usually do routine checks on the parking lots. Sure, they just cruise around in their vehicles, but there is a presence.

It was noted that his car windows were tinted and it was difficult to see anything inside.

jmo

 

[Inthedetails]

Whoa, didn't expect this. At the risk of sounding stupid, what exactly does this mean?

The restaurant is across the street from the hospital. My guess is he picked up something for dinner for the family.

The question is whether he walked there or drove the car. Looks like the restaurant has a parking lot, but it seems just as easy, if not easier, to simply walk across the street, pick up the food, and then go to his car in the VA parking lot.

So, let's add that to our list of questions - did he walk or drive to the restaurant?

jmo

 

[MsFacetious]

The restaurant is across the street from the hospital. My guess is he picked up something for dinner for the family.

The question is whether he walked there or drove the car. Looks like the restaurant has a parking lot, but it seems just as easy, if not easier, to simply walk across the street, pick up the food, and then go to his car in the VA parking lot.

So, let's add that to our list of questions - did he walk or drive to the restaurant?

jmo

This also makes sense, he picked up dinner and called to have her pick up the babies.

Also still wondering if the twins had always gone to a different daycare than their brother, or if at some point they went to the same one. If they usually all went to the same one, but the older boy had recently moved to a more preschool type setting that would also be a change in routine.

 

[neesaki]

I hate reading about these cases. If I ever did this to my baby just go ahead and bury me with him. :cry:

 

[gitana1]

When the older child was dropped off at his daycare that morning, were there cameras at the entrance? Did Dad normally walk his son inside or just go thru a drop off loop? Not that the camera would show the twins thru the tinted glass of course. Did Dad leave the car running with the twins inside while he walked the older boy inside?

I’m thinking about what is the normal routine. What would trigger an episode of such forgetfulness? At work was there a high stress task, meeting, or event that he needed to rush off to? Had there been chaos at home that morning? Who buckled the babies in that day? Were they always quiet on the drive?

In the parking lot, as Dad exited the car, he likely wouldn’t have physically turned toward the rear seats if he pulled thru the parking space. (Meaning as he left for the day, he wouldn’t need to reverse the car, simply pull out). If he pulled into a parking space, and needed to pass the rear of the car, a dark tint combined with possible morning shade would have decreased visibility of the car seats.

Good questions. There was a very similar case in NY that the state chose not to prosecute:

"For prosecutors, the critical questions are whether evidence exists that the parent meant to harm their children or knew they were placing their children in danger, legal experts said. There has to be some degree of intent to make conduct criminal.

“There always has to be some mens rea, some knowledge, intent, awareness,” said James Cohen, a professor at Fordham University School of Law in the Bronx, using the Latin legal term.

The deaths are typically caused by a glitch in how the human memory operates, said David Diamond, a psychology professor at the University of South Florida who studies these cases. When people drive familiar routes, they can go on autopilot, an habitual state of mind that suppresses their ability to remember they had made a plan, he said.

In Ohio, the Warren County prosecutor, David Fornshell, said he decided not to charge a woman in 2017 who had left her 15-month old baby inside her car with fatal results. He was ultimately convinced it was an accident in part because a security video showed how horrified the mother was when she learned she had not dropped her baby off at day care as she had thought.

“There’s nothing as a prosecutor that you are ever going to be able to do to that parent that is going to come close to what that parent is going to have to live with for the rest of their life,” Mr. Fornshell said in an interview.

In Oneida County in upstate New York, the district attorney, Scott McNamara, said he spent two months investigating whether there was any hint of malfeasance that could explain why Officer Mark Fanfarillo would leave his infant, Michael, in a hot car after dropping his older brother off at a different day care. He said could not find any.

“Just because you do something wrong doesn’t make it a crime,” Mr. McNamara said, explaining why he brought no charges. “After everything was done, and everyone was interviewed, we came to the conclusion that he just forgot, and I don’t think the law punishes forgetting.”

He Left His Twins in a Hot Car and They Died. Accident or Crime?

Much more at link including descriptions of various cases.

 

[gitana1]

I wonder what types of cars folks have who leave kids in the backseat. I have a very small Honda. Literally, it is impossible to not see the backseat, when you leave the car. You are practically in the backseat!
Honda Fit.

But, if these folks have some sort of large, SUV, with custom blacked out windows, like a fancy Cadillac SUV, where the back seat is way back there...that may also be part of the problem.

That was one of the issues in the Cooper Harris case. His car was relatively small. Due to his height Cooper's head would've been almost parallel with his shoulder.

 

[Gardenista]

Anybody know how close car seats would be to the front seat in the type of Honda he had?

I'm terrible at vehicle ID, but there are a bunch of photos in Google images if you google Juan Rodriguez Honda.

 

[gitana1]

Kid needs his dad more than his "privacy". I'd bring an embryo to court to keep him where he needs to be. Let people judge, I doubt they care about that right now. If he's military, hes a strategist, rightly so in this situation. imo ( once again.)

Yeah I'm sure the attorney told the family what to do and who to bring. It is strategy. They want to show the public and the prosecution that the defendant is a family man who is a devoted father with the full support of his family, rather than a degenerate child abuser.

I understand why an innocent man would agree to this. As we can see on this thread alone how a person is perceived is part of whether the public or the state believes they committed a crime or caused a horrific accident due to a lapse of memory.

 

[gitana1]

You don't know this man. None of us do. All these assumptions about his character are something you have zero knowledge of. There are garbage human beings who look pretty and tied up with a bow in every walk of life. (To be clear: I am not saying this guy is a garbage human being. I'm saying we don't know.) It's ridiculous to presume all of this.

Further, he is either a man who is unable to think clearly, or a man who is able to be a strategist. Cause according to you, he is both...and you can't be both less than a week after your kids suffered a horrible death at your fault.

Nah. He's a man capable of following his attorney's instructions as he walks through a haze of horror and grief. Anyone who thinks this man created this strategy should never pay for an attorney.

 

[blue22]

OK. This is operating on the assumption he got out or saw the twins when dropping the other child off. Also, assuming he drove to the restaurant. The close proximity to the restaurant makes walking there a great possibility.

He drops off the child at daycare and gets back in the car with the twins. Forgets the twins are there on the way to work. Gets to work and gets out, forgetting they are there. Does not remember during the day. Gets back in the car at the end of the day, forgetting they are there and not seeing the seats. Drove to the restaurant and still doesn't notice or remember. Gets out and goes into the restaurant, still failing to remember or see the seats. Gets back in the car from the restaurant, still failing to see the seats or remember the children. Then, finally...he remembers them.

If this is the correct sequence of events, he forgot and didn't notice his children several times. And if there was a smell, he ignored it and didn't think anything amiss.

I don't know how to feel about this. But god...how many times can we forget our kids and not notice them right there? I have a sedan larger than an accord and the rear facing seats are so noticeable.

 

[gitana1]

He Left His Twins in a Hot Car and They Died. Accident or Crime?
s/b/bm

"For prosecutors, the critical questions are whether evidence exists that the parent meant to harm their children or knew they were placing their children in danger, legal experts said. There has to be some degree of intent to make conduct criminal.

“There always has to be some mens rea, some knowledge, intent, awareness,” said James Cohen, a professor at Fordham University School of Law in the Bronx, using the Latin legal term.

In Ohio, the Warren County prosecutor, David Fornshell, said he decided not to charge a woman in 2017 who had left her 15-month old baby inside her car with fatal results. He was ultimately convinced it was an accident in part because a security video showed how horrified the mother was when she learned she had not dropped her baby off at day care as she had thought.

“There’s nothing as a prosecutor that you are ever going to be able to do to that parent that is going to come close to what that parent is going to have to live with for the rest of their life,” Mr. Fornshell said in an interview.

In Oneida County in upstate New York, the district attorney, Scott McNamara, said he spent two months investigating whether there was any hint of malfeasance that could explain why Officer Mark Fanfarillo would leave his infant, Michael, in a hot car after dropping his older brother off at a different day care. He said could not find any.

“Just because you do something wrong doesn’t make it a crime,” Mr. McNamara said, explaining why he brought no charges. “After everything was done, and everyone was interviewed, we came to the conclusion that he just forgot, and I don’t think the law punishes forgetting.”

ETA: So, I guess that we can post our outrage on some website, and insist on prison for parents... pretend that we, as citizens have no responsibility for the car seat legislation that has led directly to these deaths, OR we could actually, ya know, DO something to foster awareness and prevention while having a modicum of mercy and human decency for those who lost children because congress was not up to date on the workings and fallacy of human memory.

Oh I see this was already posted. Sorry for posting again!

Yes. It's interesting that there are several prosecutors who believe that an actual accident cannot be negligence and that you need culpable conduct such as getting high (and thus forgetting) or intentionally leaving them in the car thinking it will be only for a short time and they will be all right, and then there's those that immediately charge, like Darcel Clark who immediately charged Rodriguez with manslaughter and criminal negligence homicide and didn't wait for an investigation.

Now it appears that is on pause. But I don't think we can be so definitive about what constitutes negligence and homicide when there's such differences in how prosecutors interpret it. Even in the very same state.

 

[gitana1]

Never said it was a crime. But neglect is. Which is what I feel happened here. You don't feel that. Great, awesome. We disagree and the world goes round.

By the way...my life is far from perfect. I am far from perfect. I have said multiple times on this thread that I would expect to be judged the same way legally, should any of my children die of my neglect. I'm not above being morally or legally judged. If my child dies in my car, the law and society has EVERY right to judge me accordingly.

I find zero satisfaction in the death of babies or the collateral damage of that. I do believe that the justice system can't make excuses for criminal behavior, even criminal behavior without intent. If a child is left anywhere else and dies, no one would be arguing about charges. The car has become a magical little place that holds no accountability and puts people above legal accountability. I don't believe in THAT.

Some feel forgetting under these circumstances is neglect and others don't. It's not that the car is magical. It's just that because the parent leaves the car and it gets untenably hot, the kid isn't able to remind them they're there and the kid dies.

If a parent left a child in the house alone on accident, which happens, the child is likely to survive because it doesn't get hot. If the parent forgets a child in her crib because she thinks she took her to daycare, due to extreme exhaustion, if parent returns to the home they will hear the child cry and no police will likely be notified.

There are other cases where a child gets hurt or dies outside of a car and parents aren't charged. Mom takes a nap. Two year old wakes up, wanders into the desert and succumbs to the element. Is that neglect?

Parent allows child to walk around the restaurant and kid gets smashed to death between a table and revolving wall. Is that neglect?

Parent walks with toddler near the edge of a man made lake at a Disney resort in alligator country. Kid gets snatched and killed by an alligator. Is that neglect?

Parents believe gate to pool is locked and an alarm is set. Parents take their eyes off three year old for two minutes while playing with their other kids. When they search they don't immediately go to the pool because they are certain the gate is locked as alarm is on. Child silently drowns while parents frantically search. Is that neglect?