Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #11

[KR72]

This article about the two German tourists who were stranded in N. Manitoba came out the other day, it gives you some idea what KM and BS are going through if they are still alive and in the bush.

Can the fugitives survive the Manitoba wilderness? Ask these German tourists. - Macleans.ca

 

[jmcgladr]

Kam/Bryer were seen at the Jade, BC area during the morning of July 18, which is near Yukon-BC border, too far from Greater Vancouver area.

When they were considered "missing" RCMP clearly implied they had "returned to BC" for unknown reasons.

So we can assume RCMP knew they were in Yukon after July 14/15 murder of Lucas/Chynna and returned to BC on July 17/18.

The missing men were from Greater Vancouver, but it seems like they went missing somewhere in the Southern BC interior, around Logan Lake or Spences bridge (their car was found at Logan Lake and their destination was Spences Bridge). Exact location not known though, but possibly far from Greater Vancouver and closer (though not close) to where the other deaths happened. The 17th was their “last seen” date but the actual day they went missing seems to be unknown. Their Jeep was found on the 21st.

Quite possibly not linked to the other cases, but doesn’t seem outside the realm of possibility. Especially since Schmegelsky and Mcleod covered a lot of distance on other legs of their trip.

 

[Dee10]

PressReader.com - Your favorite newspapers and magazines.

But reports have been pouring in over recent days, with more than 30 coming in over eight hours Thursday, she said. As a result, a team was created to investigate the tips in a centralized manner.

While some reported sightings are quickly debunked, it’s important people send in information, Dionne said.

“The more information (there is), it makes it easier for us to follow up on ... We can’t dismiss it either if it’s vague or doesn’t have enough content but it may take us longer to filter through and try to figure out was there any merit into this tip,” she said.

“We really don’t want to discourage people from continuing to report because it could be that one tip that might be legitimate, that might be a true sighting.”

 

[furthermore]

Very long time lurker first time poster here. I'm hardly an expert but I'm an avid outdoors person who once lived in a wet and wild part of Canada (thought not Manitoba) for many years and I caution against thinking they couldn't survive this long in the woods in summer. I think that *if* they entered the bush once the Rav4 was set alight and *if* they did a bit of preparation, there are better than even odds they are still alive. Here's what I'd consider important, plus of course a good pack to carry it all:

Water: the most important thing they'd need is water treatment, I carry a tiny Sawyer filter, good for 1000's of litres, and attaches to most store bought soda or water bottles so you don't need a fancy bladder. Walmart Canada has a no-name "water filtration straw" for $22. Boiling water is also an option if they have a stove and were careful when the intensive search was on. Even a few drops of everyday bleach will work in place of fancy water purification tablets

Shelter: I have no idea if they'd be on the move or not, at least after the first few days. If they kept moving a tarp would be the minimum but a tent with a mesh inner to deal with bugs would be better. If they've set up camp and are biding their time, assuming they have any of: a good machete, an axe, a saw, they could build a bushcraft shelter from natural materials.

Warmth: sleeping bags for night, good lightweight layers like merino wool pullovers or down jackets for sitting around. If not then fire is essential, which would have been impossible at night when the search was as its peak but they could get away with now if kept hot and small so the smoke doesn't rise above the tree line. There are numerous ignition sources, a small Bic lighter mini will last for weeks, a fire steel (like a flint) will last for thousands of strikes and work when wet. I don't think the matches on the ground at the Rav4 are any concern at all, they are often bought in multipacks, so dropping one box is not going to make too much difference

Food: I plan and prepare and dehydrate my meals so my food weight is roughly 800g per day. I could easily carry 10 days of food in summer when I'm not carrying extra clothing and have a lightweight sleeping bag and tent. Assuming they didn't plan and dehydrate meals and are living off mac'n'cheese, jerkey and ketchup chips then they'd probably have run out a few days ago. The easiest food source where they are is fish if they had just a basic rod and tackle kit. If they don't they'll still take at least another week to starve to death, longer if they're finding berries and the occasional small game.

And while injury or animal attack are certainly possible, they are not so extremely likely that I'd write these two off. I have no experience with the level of bugs that are reported, if they had allergies it could be fatal, but otherwise just I'd think just extremely annoying and irritating but survivable.

 

[otto]

This was posted in the hard copy of the National Post on Aug 2. There doesn't appear to be an online copy of the article other than pressreader.

 

[Moriarty]

I found this story from the CBC yesterday doesn’t add much new for us but it’s interesting for the human/psychological element of this whole thing...how the fear spreads, how in the absence of news/info rumours sprout.

That must have been a little unnerving for that road worker/medic having to secure the initial crime scene for 3.5-4 hrs waiting for LE to arrive. Two victims laying there and he and no idea if the killer/killers were just in the woods watching him.

Plus this article raises a whole slew of OT questions about kids working alone at night!

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/brit...unt-bryer-schmegelsky-mcleod-gillam-1.5233428

 

[Moriarty]

Anyone on here from Quebec outside of Montreal? I’m curious what sort of coverage the story has received in the francophone press and in northern Quebec. How aware might someone be in rural northern Quebec about who these two guys are or what they look like?

Not that I think they made it that far.

I know in Alberta I get virtually zero news on anything that happens in Quebec from MSM.

 

[otto]

According to the National Post article, one person was listening to a police scanner and shared the construction site sighting on social media. That started the idea that the suspects were in Ontario. From there, a lot of people started seeing them all over the place, with some tips coming in many hours after the alleged sighting.

There are no confirmed sightings since the burned vehicle 40km East of Gillam Manitoba on July 22.

 

[Moriarty]

Hopefully you will be able to read this without a pay wall. I saw it on Apple news to begin with:

‘Call the dang thing a double murder’: RCMP communication breakdown may have given suspected killers a head start, critics say | The Star

Out come the daggers and the inevitable Canadian inquiry into perceived failure.

 

[KR72]

Very long time lurker first time poster here. I'm hardly an expert but I'm an avid outdoors person who once lived in a wet and wild part of Canada (thought not Manitoba) for many years and I caution against thinking they couldn't survive this long in the woods in summer. I think that *if* they entered the bush once the Rav4 was set alight and *if* they did a bit of preparation, there are better than even odds they are still alive. Here's what I'd consider important, plus of course a good pack to carry it all:

Water: the most important thing they'd need is water treatment, I carry a tiny Sawyer filter, good for 1000's of litres, and attaches to most store bought soda or water bottles so you don't need a fancy bladder. Walmart Canada has a no-name "water filtration straw" for $22. Boiling water is also an option if they have a stove and were careful when the intensive search was on. Even a few drops of everyday bleach will work in place of fancy water purification tablets

Shelter: I have no idea if they'd be on the move or not, at least after the first few days. If they kept moving a tarp would be the minimum but a tent with a mesh inner to deal with bugs would be better. If they've set up camp and are biding their time, assuming they have any of: a good machete, an axe, a saw, they could build a bushcraft shelter from natural materials.

Warmth: sleeping bags for night, good lightweight layers like merino wool pullovers or down jackets for sitting around. If not then fire is essential, which would have been impossible at night when the search was as its peak but they could get away with now if kept hot and small so the smoke doesn't rise above the tree line. There are numerous ignition sources, a small Bic lighter mini will last for weeks, a fire steel (like a flint) will last for thousands of strikes and work when wet. I don't think the matches on the ground at the Rav4 are any concern at all, they are often bought in multipacks, so dropping one box is not going to make too much difference

Food: I plan and prepare and dehydrate my meals so my food weight is roughly 800g per day. I could easily carry 10 days of food in summer when I'm not carrying extra clothing and have a lightweight sleeping bag and tent. Assuming they didn't plan and dehydrate meals and are living off mac'n'cheese, jerkey and ketchup chips then they'd probably have run out a few days ago. The easiest food source where they are is fish if they had just a basic rod and tackle kit. If they don't they'll still take at least another week to starve to death, longer if they're finding berries and the occasional small game.

And while injury or animal attack are certainly possible, they are not so extremely likely that I'd write these two off. I have no experience with the level of bugs that are reported, if they had allergies it could be fatal, but otherwise just I'd think just extremely annoying and irritating but survivable.

You make some very good points which all reminded me of the times when I did a lot of back-country camping and kayaking/canoeing. The furthest north I ever camped was in the Paint Lake (near Thompson) and Grass River areas (you could kayak or canoe all the way to Split Lake if you followed the entire route), but most of my experiences were in the south.

In the south the terrain is also very difficult, but there you're dealing with mostly solid rocky terrain, which is difficult enough to navigate, but it's less boggy and there are lots of rocky but clear areas to escape the near constant dampness of the bush. The thing with the north is that in the bush you are almost always wet or slightly damp at best, and unless you have a way of drying off and especially drying out your socks and footwear, travel and odds of survival definitely decrease over time. Speaking of footwear, they'll also have to have high-quality hiking boots, ideally, more than one pair each that they can rotate wearing. I don't know much about the army style boots BS was seen wearing, but I don't think they'd be appropriate for that terrain.

These two are inexperienced, I don't care how many camp-outs and survival games they played on Vancouver Island, Northern Manitoba with all the swamps, muskeg, dampness and bugs is a different beast altogether. I agree it's possible that they may still be alive if they're still up there) but they won't be for much longer.

 

[otto]

Hopefully you will be able to read this without a pay wall. I saw it on Apple news to begin with:

‘Call the dang thing a double murder’: RCMP communication breakdown may have given suspected killers a head start, critics say | The Star

Out come the daggers and the inevitable Canadian inquiry into perceived failure.

It's unfortunate that reporters express opinion rather than report the news.

There are obviously many reasons that the suspects had a head start. There was a delay in discovering the murders and even today I have not seen a time of death for the first two victims. If they were murdered at 11:30PM, nothing could be seen until daylight. By then, the suspects were long gone. There is also the fact that the murders occurred in the middle of nowhere, 4 hours from the nearest RCMP detachment. Those two points alone gave the suspects up to 11 hours head start. There were obviously no clues pointing to suspects at the time.

The next murder was 4-5 days later. The scene was of one murder and a burned vehicle. The vehicle was registered to Port Alberni, so the next question was what happened to the teens. There was no clear connection between the three murders until the teens were seen driving the Rav4 in Meadow Lake Saskatchewan on July 21.

Although I couldn't access the article, any responsible reporter who is familiar with the facts cannot reasonably argue that RCMP could have identified the suspects faster or prevented them from putting a lot of time and distance between themselves and the murders.

 

[Badgerette]

Is it possible the rav4 was not LDs personal vehicle, but a fleet vehicle for the university he worked at? I found the below link for faculty fleet vehicles for a different department at UBC, but the uni I attended had hordes of vehicles for each department to use. With his specialty being botany, perhaps they had set vehicles for faculty to use when conducting field work, ie a 4wd vehicle. This could explain why the vehicle owner has not been officially identified.

Just a thought.

Faculty Vehicle Policy | My LFS

 

[otto]

Is it possible the rav4 was not LDs personal vehicle, but a fleet vehicle for the university he worked at? I found the below link for faculty fleet vehicles for a different department at UBC, but the uni I attended had hordes of vehicles for each department to use. With his specialty being botany, perhaps they had set vehicles for faculty to use when conducting field work, ie a 4wd vehicle. This could explain why the vehicle owner has not been officially identified.

Just a thought.

Faculty Vehicle Policy | My LFS

These are the vehicles listed in that vehicle policy, so it's unlikely that the Rav4 belonged to UBC.

"The Toyota Prius and Dodge Caravan are intended for use on paved roads only. They are not to be used on unpaved roads or off-road. The Ford Ranger can be used for travel on unpaved roads and is suitable for sampling. The Chevy Colorado is generally used for short travel."
​

I also can't get past the fact that at the time that the Rav4 was found, RCMP connected the vehicle to the murders, the suspects and knew the name of the previously unidentified victim.

 

[SteveP]

These are the vehicles listed in that vehicle policy, so it's unlikely that the Rav4 belonged to UBC.

"The Toyota Prius and Dodge Caravan are intended for use on paved roads only. They are not to be used on unpaved roads or off-road. The Ford Ranger can be used for travel on unpaved roads and is suitable for sampling. The Chevy Colorado is generally used for short travel."​

Also, I believe that the Rav4 was a 2011 model. I would think the university would retire a fleet vehicle before it had 8 years of use on it, as a model that old would likely cost more in maintenance and upkeep than it would be worth. JMO

 

[musicaljoke]

Hopefully you will be able to read this without a pay wall. I saw it on Apple news to begin with:

Out come the daggers and the inevitable Canadian inquiry into perceived failure.

Sigh! It's like a standard reporting protocol:
1. Report on disaster.
2. Show first line workers slogging their butts off.
3. Criticize.

 

[otto]

Sigh! It's like a standard reporting protocol:
1. Report on disaster.
2. Show first line workers slogging their butts off.
3. Criticize.

I'm curious when The Star started reporting about these murders. Did they report that the RCMP Major Crime Unit was investigating 2 murders on Hwy 97 on July 16, or did they get on board when it was clear that this was more than a domestic or drug related situation? Maybe there was an editorial delay at The Star and they're confusing that with an RCMP delay.

 

[Badgerette]

Also, I believe that the Rav4 was a 2011 model. I would think the university would retire a fleet vehicle before it had 8 years of use on it, as a model that old would likely cost more in maintenance and upkeep than it would be worth. JMO

I agree, and was just using that as an example, bc I can’t find anything directly from the botany department regarding their specific vehicles, but I did see the dept of land and food systems(diff uni dept) has other old, OLD vehicles. Just trying to rationalize why the owner hasn’t officially been id’d.

Vehicle Bookings | My LFS

 

[musicaljoke]

Very long time lurker first time poster here. I'm hardly an expert but I'm an avid outdoors person who once lived in a wet and wild part of Canada (thought not Manitoba) for many years and I caution against thinking they couldn't survive this long in the woods in summer. I think that *if* they entered the bush once the Rav4 was set alight and *if* they did a bit of preparation, there are better than even odds they are still alive. Here's what I'd consider important, plus of course a good pack to carry it all:

Water: the most important thing they'd need is water treatment, I carry a tiny Sawyer filter, good for 1000's of litres, and attaches to most store bought soda or water bottles so you don't need a fancy bladder. Walmart Canada has a no-name "water filtration straw" for $22. Boiling water is also an option if they have a stove and were careful when the intensive search was on. Even a few drops of everyday bleach will work in place of fancy water purification tablets

Shelter: I have no idea if they'd be on the move or not, at least after the first few days. If they kept moving a tarp would be the minimum but a tent with a mesh inner to deal with bugs would be better. If they've set up camp and are biding their time, assuming they have any of: a good machete, an axe, a saw, they could build a bushcraft shelter from natural materials.

Warmth: sleeping bags for night, good lightweight layers like merino wool pullovers or down jackets for sitting around. If not then fire is essential, which would have been impossible at night when the search was as its peak but they could get away with now if kept hot and small so the smoke doesn't rise above the tree line. There are numerous ignition sources, a small Bic lighter mini will last for weeks, a fire steel (like a flint) will last for thousands of strikes and work when wet. I don't think the matches on the ground at the Rav4 are any concern at all, they are often bought in multipacks, so dropping one box is not going to make too much difference

Food: I plan and prepare and dehydrate my meals so my food weight is roughly 800g per day. I could easily carry 10 days of food in summer when I'm not carrying extra clothing and have a lightweight sleeping bag and tent. Assuming they didn't plan and dehydrate meals and are living off mac'n'cheese, jerkey and ketchup chips then they'd probably have run out a few days ago. The easiest food source where they are is fish if they had just a basic rod and tackle kit. If they don't they'll still take at least another week to starve to death, longer if they're finding berries and the occasional small game.

And while injury or animal attack are certainly possible, they are not so extremely likely that I'd write these two off. I have no experience with the level of bugs that are reported, if they had allergies it could be fatal, but otherwise just I'd think just extremely annoying and irritating but survivable.

Welcome Furthermore! I enjoyed reading your post. Just one comment about the bugs - even if the fugitives survive the bug bites, they might find that bug bites still lead to their deaths.

Without shelter at night, bugs bites will cover your entire body. They get into your ears, up your nose, into your eyes. You may have experienced black fly bites and know that a well placed bite on your eyelid can make your eye swell shut.

Even if they were prepared with a couple of bottles of Muskol, how long would that last? Gosh, if they didn't find shelter, they could be blinded by insect bites, and the outlook would be bleak.

 

[musicaljoke]

I'm curious when The Star started reporting about these murders. Did they report that the RCMP Major Crime Unit was investigating 2 murders on Hwy 97 on July 16, or did they get on board when it was clear that this was more than a domestic or drug related situation? Maybe there was an editorial delay at The Star and they're confusing that with an RCMP delay.

That's a good question. I looked back to Thread #1 and notice that the Aussie and UK papers were the first to report it. It seems like we (Canadians) were more concerned about the errors in their reports which told this had happened on the Highway of Tears.

 

[otto]

That's a good question. I looked back to Thread #1 and notice that the Aussie and UK papers were the first to report it. It seems like we (Canadians) were more concerned about the errors in their reports which told this had happened on the Highway of Tears.

That's certainly what got my attention - the DailyMail immediately sensationalizing the murders by trying to connect them to something that was obviously unrelated. It seemed that the first goal of the DailyMail was to send everyone down a very deep rabbit hole.