Found Deceased Malaysia - Nora Quoirin, 15, from UK, special needs, missing on vacation, Seremban, 4 Aug 2019 #5

[MsBetsy]

Excellent point- based on what I’ve read of her physical issues a spiral staircase is a death trap IMO - wonder of the lights were off or on ?

This was discussed at length in the beginning and the stairs would not have been a "death trap."
There is a railing she could have held onto for balance. The steps also look very wide compared to what I imagined. It also looked like there was only one curve.
If she had not been able to get down the stairs I would think her family would have said so from the beginning. Imo

 

[Suglo]

I don't know the law in Malaysia, but here in the US you can refuse to speak to the police.

I thought perhaps she was sleeping upstairs because that's where the bathroom was, but it appears Sora House has two toilets, presumably one upstairs and one downstairs.

No both toilets are downstairs. One at the bottom of the stairs next to the kitchen and another one in the master bedroom bath which is also downstairs. It has been stated that she definitely slept upstairs with her siblings.

 

[Suglo]

Is there a map of where she was staying and where she ended up? Im very curious about that.

This is a map of the resort. The family was staying in Sora House.

 

[steff13]

I don't think her being able to go up and down the stairs is consistent with the picture they've painted of her abilities later on. IMO.

 

[MsBetsy]

I don't know the law in Malaysia, but here in the US you can refuse to speak to the police.

I thought perhaps she was sleeping upstairs because that's where the bathroom was, but it appears Sora House has two toilets, presumably one upstairs and one downstairs.

Yes, when the child is a minor the parents can refuse permission for LE to speak to a child in the US, but I'm not sure about anywhere else.
Maybe they can be questioned but the parent must be present.
Anyway apparently they did speak to the children. I would think they were at least asked if they heard or saw anything. Imo

 

[steff13]

IMO, if she had ANY trouble walking, there was no reason for her to have to sleep upstairs and navigate those stairs when there was a bed downstairs. I just think perhaps her difficulty walking has been exaggerated.

 

[MsBetsy]

I don't think her being able to go up and down the stairs is consistent with the picture they've painted of her abilities later on. IMO.

Well, riding a bike is a lot harder than going up and down stairs and she would have had more experience to go up and down stairs I would think.

What about the description makes you believe it is not consistent?

Having trouble with balance and coordination does not mean not being capable of going up and down stairs.
It would be a lot easier than navigating through thick vines in the jungle and climbing up and down steep slopes in the jungle for over a week. Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

IMO, if she had ANY trouble walking, there was no reason for her to have to sleep upstairs and navigate those stairs when there was a bed downstairs. I just think perhaps her difficulty walking has been exaggerated.

How so? I did not hear anyone say she could not walk without falling down or that she required a walker.

She struggled to do many things independently. This does not mean she could not do such things with some assistance.

She had someone with her all the time. She would have needed help on the trail to the waterfall such as with stream and river crossings, getting around or climbing on rocks, and going up and down steep slopes but they planned to have someone with her. Imo

 

[Skigh]

IMO, if she had ANY trouble walking, there was no reason for her to have to sleep upstairs and navigate those stairs when there was a bed downstairs. I just think perhaps her difficulty walking has been exaggerated.

I can not see a reason why her parents would exaggerate her walking abilities.
The one thing they wanted was for her to be found.
If for a moment they thought she could have gone unaided into the jungle would they have not immediately have gone there and started to call her name?

 

[?mysterian?]

Hi cocochanel, can you (?)place direct links to the previous threads under the title?
Tia

The first post of this thread has the links to the previous threads.

 

[MsBetsy]

I entirely agree. Since most of us, hopefully, will never experience such a desperate situation nor have any experience of what to do, how can we imagine we would know precisely the best tactical approach to getting our child back safely in a country and terrain that is unknown to us?

They have taken many holidays as a family and know what they enjoy. They understand the capabilities of their children. They may have very hectic busy lives and need to find peace and solitude. They hired in people who do have experience of these situations - the Lucie Blackman Trust - and maintained a respectful and grateful relationship with all the police and searchers. They carried themselves with dignity despite been ravished by fear and despair. They are not responsible for the mis-translations, mis-quotes and speculation in the media. Nor are the police. The police focused their energies on the search and not on managing PR, timelines and messaging for us on WS.

No doubt things could have been done differently - how can anyone know that those differences would have made any difference? A challenging terrain, climate and perplexing scenario. And as has been said many times here: many people who have got lost in this environment are never found. And thats true for the many cases seen on this forum of grown adults who go missing on wilderness trails in the US and elsewhere.

Yes, you explained and expressed all that better than I have attempted to.

We have discussed the innaccurate reporting and the translation problems before, and the only thing that is still being brought up continuously is the description by the family of Nora's disabilities and the opinion that maybe her parents should not have brought her there in the first place.

I just don't see the point and I'm not sure it helps determine what happened to Nora.

If anything, it suggests that her parents are somehow responsible for what happened. And by doing that we are certainly not supporting them or helping to know all circumstances surrounding their daughters death so they can finally have some closure. Imo

 

[steff13]

I'm out running errands so I don't have time to make a detailed response but I don't think that the parents were lying I just think that they have ardently believe from the beginning that she was kidnapped and if she was able to do more things physically than what they've let us to believe fewer people would believe she was kidnapped. back to the issue of needing assistance with walking what assistance did she have she's going to a school where she is supposed to be learning to be independent if she needed assistance walking then I expect you to have a walker or a cane or braces or something like that. but I haven't seen any evidence that she used anything like that maybe she walked slowly maybe she needed to hold on to things but the jungle is full of trees and things are her to hold onto I just think in the absence of any evidence that she was kidnapped at the only option is that she left on her own at sad is that may be.

 

[dotr]

I don't know the law in Malaysia, but here in the US you can refuse to speak to the police.

I thought perhaps she was sleeping upstairs because that's where the bathroom was, but it appears Sora House has two toilets, presumably one upstairs and one downstairs.

The bathroom has been mentioned a number of times throughout these threads in relation to where Nora was sleeping and if she got up in the night to use one.
The thing i have been curious about, but hesitant to question so as not to offend- Could Nora use the washroom on her own, did she require help from a family member or have to wear protective material ?
speculation, imo.

 

[Skigh]

The bathroom has been mentioned a number of times throughout these threads in relation to where Nora was sleeping and if she got up in the night to use one.
The thing i have been curious about, but hesitant to question so as not to offend- Could Nora use the washroom on her own, did she require help from a family member or have to wear protective material ?
speculation, imo.

Like you I did not want to mention it,but I did wonder if she wore pull ups at night.
Which would mean parents would not worry about her going down stairs at night.

 

[MsBetsy]

I'm out running errands so I don't have time to make a detailed response but I don't think that the parents were lying I just think that they have ardently believe from the beginning that she was kidnapped and if she was able to do more things physically than what they've let us to believe fewer people would believe she was kidnapped. back to the issue of needing assistance with walking what assistance did she have she's going to a school where she is supposed to be learning to be independent if she needed assistance walking then I expect you to have a walker or a cane or braces or something like that. But I haven't seen any evidence that she used anything like that maybe she walked slowly maybe she needed to hold on to things but the jungle is full of trees and things are her to hold onto I just think in the absence of any evidence that she was kidnapped at the only option is that she left on her own at sad is that may be.

I'm sure they gave a much more detailed description to police and the searchers. They may have supplied documents explaining her condition that they could have translated.

I'm not sure releasing everything to the public would have helped anyway. There were over 300 experts involved in the search and many agencies assisting with the investigation.
It would most likely have been too dangerous for the public to be involved in the search.

After all, they did a thorough job with the investigation and had more people and agencies involved than any other case I have followed. Imo

 

[neesaki]

I'm surprised she'd be sleeping upstairs, given her apparent difficulty ambulating. Why have her sleep upstairs where she had to navigate that spiral staircase when there's a bed downstairs?

Especially considering she would have been dealing with the steep spiral stairs everyday for two weeks.

 

[Suglo]

I obviously don’t know how ambulatory she was on her own but they did mention in the beginning that she was learning to ride a bicycle. I took this as a sign that she was able to walk on her own albeit with some balance issues because it’s not easy to ride a bicycle if one has extreme balance issues.

 

[MsBetsy]

The bathroom has been mentioned a number of times throughout these threads in relation to where Nora was sleeping and if she got up in the night to use one.
The thing i have been curious about, but hesitant to question so as not to offend- Could Nora use the washroom on her own, did she require help from a family member or have to wear protective material ?
speculation, imo.

It was said that Nora could wash and dress herself independently but struggled to wash her hair and do buttons.
I'm assuming she did not have to wear protective gear such as elbow or knee pads or a helmet or it would have been mentioned. I'm not sure about any other kind.
She was learning to ride a bike at school so she may have had to for that particular activity. Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

I obviously don’t know how ambulatory she was on her own but they did mention in the beginning that she was learning to ride a bicycle. I took this as a sign that she was able to walk on her own albeit with some balance issues because it’s not easy to ride a bicycle if one has extreme balance issues.

Yes, they also said she enjoyed walking with her family.

I think the thing that was stressed most is that Nora never went too far from her mother or any of her care givers. She never went anywhere by herself.
She was shy, sensitive, and anxious when her mom was not by her side.

I believe this is the main reason her parents could not believe she would climb out of a window and venture into the jungle in the dark. Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

Especially considering she would have been dealing with the steep spiral stairs everyday for two weeks.

Well, if they thought she was having trouble she could have just slept down stairs for the rest of the time.

She may have taken a little longer, especially if she had to take one step at a time without alternating her feet (like a small child when they first learn to go up and down) but I doubt it would have taken much longer. Imo