CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #7

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Here is a Google street view link to a point on Kelbaker Rd 20 miles north of I-40, per this article:

"The San Bernardino Sheriff’s Department is actively searching for a lost hiker in the Mojave Desert, 20 miles north of Interstate 40 and east of Kelbaker Road."

If she's really there, I'm surprised dogs can't find her. She can't get very far without supplies.

From the start, the search area, and the area where BT was said to have disappeared, was centered at the intersection of Kelbaker and Hidden Hill Road, which is 6.3 miles north of the I-40. (She was actually said to have disappeared while returning to the RV, which was parked at a pullout on the east side of the road, from a rock formation that's about a mile west of the road.)
CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #2

It's unclear why the initial LE reports said "east of Kelbaker 20 miles north of the I-40," but my guess is that it was due to faulty localization of the 911 cellphone call.

That said, there has been extensive discussion of what it might mean that the dogs didn't find her. JMO
 
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Thanks! In that case, here's a street view of the intersection of Kelbaker Rd and Hidden Hill (dirt) Road, 6.3 miles north of I-40.

Is Hidden Hill Road the trail they were allegedly hiking on?
 
Thanks! In that case, here's a street view of the intersection of Kelbaker Rd and Hidden Hill (dirt) Road, 6.3 miles north of I-40.

Is Hidden Hill Road the trail they were allegedly hiking on?

No, they were said to have gone in the other direction. Here's a post of mine that includes "street view" looking down the trail:

CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #6

By the way, I think post 15 in the thread I cited earlier may have a good summary of known facts.

JMO
 
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Can someone provide or point me to a summary of all salient points and facts about this case? I don't feel like sifting through all these threads. Thanks!
check the 'media thread' and view all posts under my username (and also all posts by user @PommyMommy a very salient sleuth).
 
Can you speculate as to how this scenario would lead to her body being off the trail in a place where the searchers were unable to find it?
If the heat took her over, she could have wandered a short distance off the trail (even in Bikini/underwear and through Cholla) before she passed out. I passed out in my house once, I vaguely felt it coming on and the next thing I woke up on the floor quite a ways from where I first felt something wasn't quite right with me. No recollection of moving over that space at all. None.
 
I don’t think I’d mind sharing my husband’s hydration pack, personally. Is that yuck?:oops: But, ok, how about one can fill an empty bottle from the drinking tube, then hand the bottle to the other person to drink from? :D

I’d say it is pretty true for me that my husband will be the one to wear a backpack and lug all our stuff on day trips. I’m remembering, for example, like when my kids were young and we’d go as a family to an amusement park. He would carry the pack with the kids’ junk and snacks, etc. We were together, so it seemed to make sense.

Likewise, RT and BT were doing their walk together, so it doesn’t seem odd that he would be carrying all the supplies, to me.

It seems very odd to me, as a somewhat experienced hiker. Especially in the desert. To have no water on one's person is, to me, sort of like walking barefoot or poking at a rattlesnake. But that's just me. Obviously, Barbara (if she died of heat or thirst out there) would have been better off if she carried water. They did a short scramble to the top of something, and if he had fallen into a crack, wedged his backpack, then no one would have water. Redundancy on essentials is key to desert survival.

I know they thought they were very close to their rig, and, well, I see people stop and walk off in flip flops, no hat, no water, all the time. Even desert experts sometimes forget or underestimate water needs. You can't really hike into GC without random people begging you for water.

I always take my ID, as well, and we both take our own keys. My husband sometimes carries my bag for me (when I'm trying to get up a rock) but hands it back if we are going to separate for any reason (potty breaks, one of us wants a photo). That's kind of the point of me having my separate bag (just in case we get separated, so far, we haven't, at least, not when both of us were out of sight of our vehicle). We once spotted a lost dog, my husband took off to try and help it (he got it, we found the owners a tenth of a mile away, they had tied the dog up while they did something, dog got away). In the meantime, husband and I were separated, but again, I had my bag (with sunscreen, water, keys, ID, etc).

I cannot emphasize enough how breaking this rule of not carrying separate supplies is just basic. We do this in non-desert travel as well. So while it wouldn't be odd at Disneyland to have one person carry everything, but in any kind of wilderness (and where they were, definitely counts as wilderness), not good.

On a different topic, since Pommy Mommy posted such great pictures of the parking area...do any of you see any rocks suitable for hiding keys there? I wonder how far outside the lot they had to go (since larger rocks don't belong in parking lots and many people would toss 'em back out into the desert). A fist sized rock would not be big enough and any rock right in the parking lot would risk having your keys smash by another vehicle - so...I wonder how easy it was for Barb to find the key, if she did make it back to the RV. (I am skeptical about that part of RT's story, obviously). Maybe the rock was right underneath their trailer? I wish he'd given more details about his own desert travel skills.

Were they used to separating on walks? (Hence, the key thing was a pattern?)

Here is a Google street view link to a point on Kelbaker Rd 20 miles north of I-40, per this article:

"The San Bernardino Sheriff’s Department is actively searching for a lost hiker in the Mojave Desert, 20 miles north of Interstate 40 and east of Kelbaker Road."

If she's really there, I'm surprised dogs can't find her. She can't get very far without supplies.

I think it's been pretty well established that the report is wrong. It is confusing, but the 911 call came from a location 6.5 miles north of I-40 and that's where the search crew showed up and that's where the search was organized. It also matches RT's description of where the trail started. Is it possible they were searching in the wrong place? I suppose - but boy is that ever weird. It's entered into the AG's missing person's database as Kelbaker/HH and that was done by LE.

Dogs can't track scent well in dry hot desert conditions. Dogs were used to search for the couple at Amboy (some 15-20 miles away from this site) and were unsuccessful in finding either body initially. Not sure they were even involved when one body was found 11 months later.
 
Thanks! In that case, here's a street view of the intersection of Kelbaker Rd and Hidden Hill (dirt) Road, 6.3 miles north of I-40.

Is Hidden Hill Road the trail they were allegedly hiking on?

No. They crossed the road and hiked to the Granite Hills. According to RT and according to available pictures of the search. Hidden Hill Road is, in fact a road. Just a very unimproved one.

You can see the trail on google maps if you look across Kelbaker from that turn-out. If you use 3D view you can see the main trail and several intersecting trails (including short ones that run up toward the top of the hills).
 
I’ve been troubled from the outset about RT purportedly carrying a gallon of water on the trail. Not something experienced hikers do.
@Jazzy5980 :) Thanks for your post.
A gallon. Experienced hikers do not carry? Source? Link?
One gallon of water = 3.78 liters. or .79 gal = 3 liters.
Are we talking about the same unit of measurement?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amazon.com search for "hydration packs" shows over 1000 results, many w 3 liter bladders. ;) Are Camelbak* and other manufr's wasting their time making those 3 liter packs**, because experienced hikers (and outdoor recreationists) don't carry that much water? :rolleyes:
And no, I have no idea how much water RT was carrying or how he was carrying it. Just saying one gallon*** for two adults on two mile walk/hike in anticipated 40?-60?-90? min time in that Mojave heat is not excessive, imo.



* Backpacks and Hydration Packs — CamelBak
** typical reservoirs are between 1 to 3 liters "....commonly used for outdoor recreational activities, such as hiking, bicycling, and kayaking, as well as for military maneuvers.. ." Hydration pack - Wikipedia
*** "The USDA recommends a daily intake of total water: ... The recommended intake is 3.7 liters (appx. 1 gallon) per day for an adult male, and 2.7 liters (appx. 0.75 gallon) for an adult female." bbm < not calculated for hot temps like summer in Mojave desert.
Also Hydration Tips & How To Stay Hydrated — CamelBak
 
Sure. But we don't know what they cut, if they did, is my point. Adding ideas to interviews and then saying "it was probably cut" makes little sense.

It does when people are attaching significance to things they didn't hear him say, that they thought he should have said.
 
@Jazzy5980 :) Thanks for your post.
A gallon. Experienced hikers do not carry? Source? Link?
One gallon of water = 3.78 liters. or .79 gal = 3 liters.
Are we talking about the same unit of measurement?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amazon.com search for "hydration packs" shows over 1000 results, many w 3 liter bladders. ;) Are Camelbak* and other manufr's wasting their time making those 3 liter packs**, because experienced hikers (and outdoor recreationists) don't carry that much water? :rolleyes:
And no, I have no idea how much water RT was carrying or how he was carrying it. Just saying one gallon*** for two adults on two mile walk/hike in anticipated 40?-60?-90? min time in that Mojave heat is not excessive, imo.



* Backpacks and Hydration Packs — CamelBak
** typical reservoirs are between 1 to 3 liters "....commonly used for outdoor recreational activities, such as hiking, bicycling, and kayaking, as well as for military maneuvers.. ." Hydration pack - Wikipedia
*** "The USDA recommends a daily intake of total water: ... The recommended intake is 3.7 liters (appx. 1 gallon) per day for an adult male, and 2.7 liters (appx. 0.75 gallon) for an adult female." bbm < not calculated for hot temps like summer in Mojave desert.
Also Hydration Tips & How To Stay Hydrated — CamelBak

I believe what was meant is that an experienced hiker isn't likely to carry a 1-gallon container of water of the sort that you might purchase at the grocery store, not that an experienced hiker is unlikely to carry that amount of water.

I agree that the former is unusual for an experienced hiker, while the latter would be normal and praiseworthy. A large rigid container of water is awkward to drink from and to carry, even in your pack. That amount of water, whether in a hydration pack or in smaller containers, is more convenient and would be a good idea if shared among two hikers on a desert walk. JMO
 
Maybe so. But they're veering into imaginative story telling with no proof of anything. It's my opinion there's plenty to scrutinize without inventing ghost interviews.
Nobody is inventing "ghost interviews".
The facts are that only a fraction of what he has said about what happened that day is in the public domain.
 
I believe what was meant is that an experienced hiker isn't likely to carry a 1-gallon container of water of the sort that you might purchase at the grocery store, not that an experienced hiker is unlikely to carry that amount of water.
I agree that the former is unusual for an experienced hiker, while the latter would be normal and praiseworthy. A large rigid container of water is awkward to drink from and to carry, even in your pack. That amount of water, whether in a hydration pack or in smaller containers, is more convenient and would be a good idea if shared among two hikers on a desert walk. JMO

@LAhiker :) Thanks for your post.
Yes, agreeing w you here. I thought earlier today, discussion covered disadvantage of one-gal container, awkward to carry; advantage of splitting into multiple smaller bottles, etc. Thought Jazzy5980 might be talking about something else altogether.


Still, I'd like confirm. from @Jazzy5980.
 
Spring water is sold in those milk-jug style gallon sized containers. Again- not really that weird to have one or to carry one in your backpack.

Water : Publix.com
RT said they had a gallon of water with them (that he must have been carrying since he said BT went missing without any water) (BBM):

"Robert says they had taken a short trip in their camper when they decided to pull up and go for a 2-mile walk to explore rock formations. They took a pack, beer and a gallon of water, and Barbara was wearing a bikini, hiking boots with black socks, and a red-and-white baseball cap." Husband of Woman Who Vanished During Mojave Desert Hike: 'I Just Want Her Back'

A gallon of water weighs about 8.3 pounds. Gallons to Pounds [ water ] (gal to lb [ water ] ) Conversion
Beer and a pack, less than that, unless they were also carrying a gallon of beer.

IMO and MOO, as an experienced walker/hiker who goes on walks/hikes with other experienced walkers/hikers, and in the desert as well, all of us:

(1) put considerable thought and effort into minimizing weight we're carrying on a walk/hike of any length in order to lighten our load and minimize burning of calories, especially on uneven/hilly/steep trails and terrain, and in the heat of the day.

(2) would carry a smaller personal reusable plastic, metal or glass water bottle with a screw cap/lid (typically 12 - 22 ounces) for a short walk/hike, or a Camelbak pack (typically 50 - 100 ounces) for a longer walk/hike, or, if 'on the fly' without our usual walking/hiking gear to hand, individual sized disposable plastic bottled water (typically 8 - 16 ounces). Often with electrolyte powder added, especially when it's hot out, as an extra measure to prevent dehydration. You can carry the smaller ones on your person (in your hand(s), in the waistband of your trunks/shorts/pants/bathing suit bottoms/bra/bathing suit top, under your hat, in a strap around your arm or leg or waist) and if refrigerated or put on ice beforehand, they will help keep your body cooler for longer than carrying warm water in a pack on a hike in the heat.

(3) would not have one person alone carry all the water (8+ pounds, presumably in a plastic jug with one handle) for two people, which would be the heaviest item to carry on your person, either in a pack that would either take up a lot of room, not leaving much other room (for the camera and the beer), or would be difficult to carry in your hands on a walk/hike of any length, and juggle and have to set down on the hot ground while stopping to take photographs or go exploring/check out rocks.

IMO and MOO, as an experienced hiker, starting out on a short (2.2 mile) walk/hike with only one person of the two people hiking together carrying 8+ pounds of water in the heat of the day in the heat of the desert would be:

(1) a tiring amount of weight to be hauling in one place by one person in a container not designed for the activity and terrain.

(2) an indication that the walk/hike was not well planned / standard protocols were not followed since two people can (and did in this case) get separated from eachother and the one source of water available to them, and in such extreme conditions.

According to RT, they apparently had already thought out the possibility they may get separated since that is the reason he gave for hiding the key to their truck/RV under a rock nearby instead of carrying it on either of their persons, so whomever reached there first would be able to get in if on their own/ahead of the other and in need of shelter/bathroom/shade/food/a cool place to rest, etc.

Therefore, it seems to make sense that they would have put the same amount of thought into each of them having access to things needed to survive out there for any length of time, i.e., water (and a cell or satellite phone, actually, in case of emergency) on their walk/hike.

According to RT, he said BT had 'a beer in her hand' when she disappeared. However, experienced desert walkers/hikers and guides you can read about day hiking like this one recommend each person always has their own water supply (some parts BBM):

How Much Water Do You Need for Day Hiking?

It’s important to bring water with you when you go day hiking to replace the fluid you lose to perspiration, help keep you more alert and flush waste products out of your body. Not bringing enough water can lead to discomfort, while bringing too much can slow you down. How much water do you need and what’s the best way to carry it?

1 Liter every two hours
If you’re actively hiking, it’s good to drink about 1 liter (32 ounces) of water every two hours. That’s a good rule of thumb based on my experience hiking year-round and in a wide range of climates. You might need more or less depending on the temperature, humidity and body weight, but that’s a good estimate of what you’ll need to carry if you can’t refill on your route.

Water bottles are best carried where they are easily accessible on the outside of a backpack rather than being buried inside it. Backpacks with stretch side pockets are convenient, so you can reach back and grab a bottle to sip from while walking.

[.....]

Does it have to be water?
No. You can drink any non-alcoholic fluid. Water is usually cheap and easily available, but you can also drink tea or juice if you prefer, or add an electrolyte mix to your water...

[....]


https://sectionhiker.com/how-much-water-do-you-need-for-day-hiking/

IMO and MOO, RT saying that BT was not in possession of water (not to mention a communication device, ID/wallet, food or other supplies) when they 'became separated' and she went missing on their 2.2 mile walk/hike while he was carrying all their water supply and other items himself, is not consistent with how other experienced desert walkers/hikers take precautions, nor does it follow the 'buddy system' of staying together that I would especially expect a couple to adhere to when walking/hiking alone in the desert in an area they had not hiked together before:

"If you are planning a trip into the desert during the months when high temperatures can occur, this is usually June through September, with July and August being the hottest. Consider if this trip at this time of year, is really necessary. The most elaborately planned desert trip could result in your being placed in a survival situation. Desert temperatures can rise in excess of 120 degrees.

The following tips will help you stay safe on a desert hike.

ABSTAIN FROM HIKING DURING THE HOTTEST PART OF THE DAY. [....]
REMAIN HYDRATED. SERIOUSLY—DRINK A LOT OF WATER. [....]
REPLENISH ELECTROLYTES. [....]
FIGURE OUT HOW TO RECOGNIZE SIGNS OF HEAT-RELATED ILLNESSES. [....]
KNOW ABOUT FLASH FLOODS. [....]
DRESS APPROPRIATELY AND TAKE LAYERS. [....]
KNOW YOUR LIMITS AND REST OFTEN. [....]
WATCH FOR WILDLIFE AND KEEP YOUR DISTANCE. [....]
USE THE BUDDY SYSTEM. [....]
LEAVE YOUR ITINERARY WITH A FRIEND OR RELATIVE. [....]
MAKE SURE YOU ARE EQUIPPED WITH EXTRA SUPPLIES. [....]
"

POINTERS ON HOW TO HIKE THE DESERT SAFELY
 
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Many people have written recommendations on how much water to take and how to carry it. Their hike was taking them away from their RV so how is elimination handled? Is a hiker expected to return to their camper if they find they need to urinate or defecate? RT implied that is why BT left him, another mistake in judgement while hiking.
 
Tire Tracks at Turnout, Showing RT "Left and Returned'?
(Parsing Alert)

@deugirtni Thx for you post. snipped for focus.
How often does LE detect useful tire marks/tracks w sufficient definition/resolution, thru photos or casts, to identify and match to particular vehicle’s tires? In CSI TV, all the time, every time. IRL-CSI, not so often, as it depends on multiple factors, not just a pair of eyeballs glancing at the ground. Not that they all apply here, but factors include:
- Road surface: pavement, concrete, asphalt, gravel, chip-seal, cobblestone, etc.
- Off-road ground surface: sand, clay, caliche, topsoil, ground-cover plants, pebbles, gravel, etc.
- Tire tread pattern(s).
- Weather, wind, precipitation.


LE knows RT's truck & 5th wheel were at turnout, because LE was there when truck & 5'er were at that site. IIUC and AFAIK, on first day initially LE would have had a no reason to be concerned w tire tracks. Later that day, LE may or may not have looked for or detected that "first set" of tracks.


1) Is OP saying: It's a certainty LE did see/detect 'first set', those of RT? If LE tried to make a forensic match– by photo and/or cast – for ‘first set’ of tracks, they may not have been able to.

2) Is OP saying: It's a certainty LE saw/detected "second set' w sufficient definition/resolution to identify and match? If so, respectfully disagreeing w > LE would know if RT "left and returned." < bbm Jmo, not necessarily.
Seems like common sense - if truck & 5'er had previously been there that day and returned, there should be two sets of tracks from those tires. However ----


Could RT have left second set without leaving the turnout? I think so. Drivers who have towed 5'ers or trailers know that they don't always hit the targeted parking space on the first shot, even a huuuuuuuge space. [:rolleyes:Anyone not fessing up has a hand behind the back w fingers crossed. Fibber :rolleyes: ]. Esp'ly w new equipment (wasn't this trip the maiden voyage for RT w this truck & rig?), drivers often make several attempts before hitting the bull’s eye. When initially pulling off highway into turnout, RT could have driven back & forth multiple times - two, three, four – to align the vehicles in a certain way, for ex. to orient for more shade on one side or end of 5'er.

So, imo, LE could have found & matched two sets of identical impressions, suggesting RT left, although he may not actually driven from turnout.


Alternatively, RT could have left turnout by driving truck, with or without 5th wheel, and left tracks which either---
- LE could have seen/detected and identified as his, or
- LE were unable to identify as his.
^jmo.



TL, DR? Better not to assume what LE knows or does not know. jmo
:p LOL, I think you may have witnessed me backing my RV into a space. I didn't even trust the backup camera. :rolleyes:
 
Many people have written recommendations on how much water to take and how to carry it. Their hike was taking them away from their RV so how is elimination handled? Is a hiker expected to return to their camper if they find they need to urinate or defecate? RT implied that is why BT left him, another mistake in judgement while hiking.

That depends on the sensibilities of the hikers involved. For urination, in a large desolate wilderness setting, a man would probably just pee off to the side. A woman might squat in a cholla-free area. But some women might prefer to pee back at the RV. For defecation, I think people of both genders are more likely to want to get back to a place with toilet paper and an easy way to dispose of it.

(People do carry toilet paper on hikes in the wilderness, but there's the question of what to do with used TP. Sometimes people bury it along with the pee or poop. Sometimes people pack it out in plastic bags.)

Sometimes people on backpacking trips defecate (and pee) into "cat holes," that is, holes dug into the ground and subsequently covered with dirt. But on a short walk, if I had to defecate, I'd just hurry back to the RV. JMO
 
Also: RT did not say that BT was going to the RV because she was feeling bad...did he?

He said he asked her to 'stay' (sounds like what you tell a dog) while he took photos. She declined to

This makes me suspect she probably didn't get lost in the desert. She was not far from the RV (all assumptions due to RT's story, which could be cockamamie).

She wasn't feeling ill according to our eyewitness: RT.

I also wonder what type of protocol they have while hiking?

Smart enough to leave a key in case they are separated (how often did that happen?? And this was a walk, not a hike)...but not smart enough for BT to have anything but her beer in her hand when she chose to go ahead and not 'stay' for RT

It's all a bit contradictory

JMO
 
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