CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #7

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Yes—this type of trouble with the heat can lead to confusion and disorientation. So, ‘trying to find shade’ could lead her off the path, to some rather unlikely place. And, there can also be a type of euphoria, where the person doesn’t even realize that there’s a serious problem—once again, the possibility of her ending up in an improbable place. Add to that the fact that SAR, both people and dogs, are not infallible, no matter how skilled and caring they are.
I'm thinking that BT had to pee and started toward the RV to do just that. It seems that even if she got a bit off trail, the dogs would have scented where she maybe used the bathroom because she couldn't wait. JMO
 
who and why? can you expand a little?

Not really. I mean it comes down to either RT or not RT. Not permitted to accuse RT on this site, regardless of general statistics of how often a spouse is the perp in similar cases.

If it's not RT, I don't have any specific thoughts about who or why, other than to say my thoughts arose from the VI's comments about the past, the MLM, etc.

One scenario would be if RT arranged something that was implemented by others. But why, I wouldn't have a clue.

And I don't assume my thoughts cover all possibilities, so my point in posting was to see if my thinking outside the already-discussed-to-death box might give anyone else an idea that could be helpful.

I cannot presume that the truck and RV were searched. While I know it's within the realm of legal possibility, given that it's California and especially given the large number of disgruntled person lawsuits against SBCS, I don't think they'd do that without permission or a warrant. LE who were seen to be taking advantage of a distraught, elderly, possibly heat-exhausted man to search without a warrant....are not going to get anything from that search admitted into court. MOO there, but it's a strong opinion. If they did search the RV and truck, that's not been released to the public and apparently did not reveal a body, blood or anything else to suggest a crime had been committed. RT would be arrested by now.

If the truck and 5th wheel have not been searched by LE, then who knows what they contain. I can only conclude that if RT is innocent, then he of course would have searched there for any clues about what happened to BT. I mean, when he arrived back at the RV and didn't see her sitting outside under the awning, his first natural assumption would be that she was inside -- using the potty, getting more water, turning on the A/C, laying down if she didn't feel well, etc.

And if RT isn't innocent, it's hard for me to think he would have calmly left clues in the RV, because how could he have known with certainty that they wouldn't find SOMETHING sufficient for a warrant to look there?

So I don't claim it means anything, but can't let it go unobserved, that we (and quite possibly LE) have no idea if the truck and RV hold clues to BT's fate.
 
there are schools of thought on speech patterns, psychology of speech, linguistic forensics and statement analysis. LE are no stranger to reading between the lines. Would be far more odd if no one was examining what has so far been stated. IMO this should be done with a fine tooth comb, and repeated with brush, fingers, perhaps even scissors or a razorblade if we wanted to really see what was behind the words.
the way that people speak is very telling. rhetoric, specifically, is a very powerful tool of persuasion, and if you have a working understanding of rhetoric you will know when a salesman is trying to sell you something.

a good salesman might mimic your mannerisms, gestures, and even your figures of speech, for example, to lower your subconcious and instictual guards, and cultivate trust via relative understanding and a sense of familiarity. We all do this naturally to a degree, but one who is trained in rhetoric, or a veteran salesman worth his salt, for example, knows how to use language as a tool.

And, actually, this is my own area of expertise. Within that specialty, there are many subspecialties. I don't have enough context to say anything definitely about RT's utterances. I also specialize in written communication and aid in forensic diagnostics of mental illness.

I will say just one thing: compared to many people, RT was not reticent to be on camera and televised talking about the disappearance. Sure, there were some "um's" (not always present even in a shy person's speech) but in general, he seemed eager to talk (and yet...had not yet laid out any coherent appeal to the public regarding how to find his wife or detailing the circumstances under which she disappeared). Emphasis on the word "detail."

Fine tooth comb is exactly how it's done. A cultural context is also needed. Since RT and Barbara are roughly from my own language community, I only wish I had some video of the two of them together (in order to see both of them in action, as it were).

Interesting, too, that despite his interest in photography (and possible possession of a 360 camera, which I doubt until there is actual evidence of it (since people use that term to describe the panorama ability of smartphones)...there is no video of the hike or any video at all (sent to family) of anything.

It takes me a while to leap past "literal meaning of words as commonly understood within community of speakers" to any other interpretation. Cops tend to be automatically think about what the literal meaning of words might be hiding. Cops look to trip people up, I know that all people sometimes misspeak. It's a yin-yang kind of thing.

But I do know this: something doesn't add up with the timeline for that day and known actions and events. If RT can't accurately estimate time of day and time of calls, then I'm doubtful of his other abilities to measure and recount properly. Some people always guesstimate. And I mean...pretty much always, as far as linguists can tell (and psychologists and psychological anthropologists). Doesn't mean I don't believe his other statements, just means I bring doubt to those next.

Which led me back to the basics (mapping where people were when they said things and mapping the places they are talking about).

Did RT know exactly where they had gone, after they crossed the highway? What do his pictures show? Did SAR have those pictures? Did LE have them early on? Who was in control of the camera when the pictures were first shown? When was the phone taken from RT and looked through thoroughly (if it was). I can picture a policeman sitting in the front of the car with RT (not the back), going through each picture (not taking notes, not intimidating RT in any way, just doing what the policeman does best: remember things and ask more questions).

That would have guided the search very well. And still, they didn't find her. She had 3 hours to be away from where RT last saw her...huge search radius.

I'm now doubting that they hiked as far as I initially thought he said, but I'll save that for another post.
 
snipped for focus.
I cannot presume that the truck and RV were searched. While I know it's within the realm of legal possibility, given that it's California and especially given the large number of disgruntled person lawsuits against SBCS, I don't think they'd do that without permission or a warrant. LE who were seen to be taking advantage of a distraught, elderly, possibly heat-exhausted man to search without a warrant....are not going to get anything from that search admitted into court. MOO there, but it's a strong opinion. If they did search the RV and truck, that's not been released to the public and apparently did not reveal a body, blood or anything else to suggest a crime had been committed. RT would be arrested by now.

I think they did not search it, sadly.
yeah I think your right 10 of RODS a search wasn't done on the RV.
I think its protocol that a few LE would have done a 'look through' but no touchies. like at the supermarket bag check.
so if something appeared off visually they would have legal standing to go ahead with a warrant.
not sure about america but in oz 2 or 3 police will independenly go through to see things with 'fresh eyes'.
so I believe LE would have walked through the RV with RTs permission but that's it.
obviously nothing seemed a miss in there.

moo
 
Many people have written recommendations on how much water to take and how to carry it. Their hike was taking them away from their RV so how is elimination handled? Is a hiker expected to return to their camper if they find they need to urinate or defecate? RT implied that is why BT left him, another mistake in judgement while hiking.
The points I was trying to make were that ideally each individual should have their own water supply on them when hiking in the desert, just in case, and it's not only wise but easy to accomplish, as there are lots of ways to accomplish this without one person lugging 8 pounds of water "for two" in one gallon jug container that is not designed for hiking.

I acknowledge the possibility that RT 'did the heavy lifting' or typically carried everything for them both, and maybe they typically did follow the buddy system and stay together most of the time unless someone needed to 'use the RV' like, according to RT, he said BT did this time when she 'pulled ahead' and 'wouldn't wait for him'.

However, all it takes is one situation like this when they did not stay together, and were separated for a few minutes, for him to lose his wife in the middle of the desert without her own water and supplies, and she sadly could not be found by LE and a professional SAR team after over a week of searching with all resources to hand.

I can't speak for anyone else about the question of how elimination is handled on hikes, but what's typical in my experience for a 2 mile hike from the starting point of an RV equipped with a bathroom, would be to use the head before heading out, so I wouldn't need to stop on the trail to do my business. That's the whole appeal (for someone like me anyway) to investing in and having an RV -- it's like taking your home with you wherever you go, so you don't ever have to 'rough it' going potty outdoors or sleeping on the ground or cooking over a campfire, all the comforts of home are right there.

All MOO.
 
Not really. I mean it comes down to either RT or not RT. Not permitted to accuse RT on this site, regardless of general statistics of how often a spouse is the perp in similar cases.

If it's not RT, I don't have any specific thoughts about who or why, other than to say my thoughts arose from the VI's comments about the past, the MLM, etc.

One scenario would be if RT arranged something that was implemented by others. But why, I wouldn't have a clue.

And I don't assume my thoughts cover all possibilities, so my point in posting was to see if my thinking outside the already-discussed-to-death box might give anyone else an idea that could be helpful.

If the truck and 5th wheel have not been searched by LE, then who knows what they contain. I can only conclude that if RT is innocent, then he of course would have searched there for any clues about what happened to BT. I mean, when he arrived back at the RV and didn't see her sitting outside under the awning, his first natural assumption would be that she was inside -- using the potty, getting more water, turning on the A/C, laying down if she didn't feel well, etc.

And if RT isn't innocent, it's hard for me to think he would have calmly left clues in the RV, because how could he have known with certainty that they wouldn't find SOMETHING sufficient for a warrant to look there?

So I don't claim it means anything, but can't let it go unobserved, that we (and quite possibly LE) have no idea if the truck and RV hold clues to BT's fate.

If there were clues in the RV, they almost certainly aren't ones that RT would have thought about. But, there are some really easy clues that LE might have seen (if RT ever opened the door at all to the RV). These clues would have exonerated RT's basic story: Barbara's things were in the trailer, and she ought to have something in the cab of the truck as well.

That's why I'm curious as to what piece of Barbara's clothing was used to scent the dogs (and was it Barbara's clothing? Didn't the police probably get at least a quick peek, with permission, out of the organic nature of needing to grab a few of Barbara's things - like a different pair of shoes, in particular, to scent the dogs?)

"Can I go inside to get a couple of things of your wife's to use with the dogs?"

Who's going to say "no" to that? KWIM? So RT said yes and they got to take a quick peek around the 5th wheel. If it's true that RT was in the cruiser (invited to stay in it, no less) then he wouldn't have observed what exactly they grabbed. I think most LE would ask RT to go inside the trailer with them to find suitable items. Unless they really did suspect it was a crime scene, then...no.

I think that, even now, the truck and the RV hold some clues, but there were more clues on July 12. Still, if LE got a warrant to search, there would be all sorts of questions that RT could answer for them as he gave them a tour of his 5th wheel.
 
If there were clues in the RV, they almost certainly aren't ones that RT would have thought about. But, there are some really easy clues that LE might have seen (if RT ever opened the door at all to the RV). These clues would have exonerated RT's basic story: Barbara's things were in the trailer, and she ought to have something in the cab of the truck as well.

That's why I'm curious as to what piece of Barbara's clothing was used to scent the dogs (and was it Barbara's clothing? Didn't the police probably get at least a quick peek, with permission, out of the organic nature of needing to grab a few of Barbara's things - like a different pair of shoes, in particular, to scent the dogs?)

"Can I go inside to get a couple of things of your wife's to use with the dogs?"

Who's going to say "no" to that? KWIM? So RT said yes and they got to take a quick peek around the 5th wheel. If it's true that RT was in the cruiser (invited to stay in it, no less) then he wouldn't have observed what exactly they grabbed. I think most LE would ask RT to go inside the trailer with them to find suitable items. Unless they really did suspect it was a crime scene, then...no.

I think that, even now, the truck and the RV hold some clues, but there were more clues on July 12. Still, if LE got a warrant to search, there would be all sorts of questions that RT could answer for them as he gave them a tour of his 5th wheel.
We don't know do we. He may have invited them in and said look around as much as you like.
 
@Jazzy5980 :) Thanks for your post.
A gallon. Experienced hikers do not carry? Source? Link?
One gallon of water = 3.78 liters. or .79 gal = 3 liters.
Are we talking about the same unit of measurement?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amazon.com search for "hydration packs" shows over 1000 results, many w 3 liter bladders. ;) Are Camelbak* and other manufr's wasting their time making those 3 liter packs**, because experienced hikers (and outdoor recreationists) don't carry that much water? :rolleyes:
And no, I have no idea how much water RT was carrying or how he was carrying it. Just saying one gallon*** for two adults on two mile walk/hike in anticipated 40?-60?-90? min time in that Mojave heat is not excessive, imo.



* Backpacks and Hydration Packs — CamelBak
** typical reservoirs are between 1 to 3 liters "....commonly used for outdoor recreational activities, such as hiking, bicycling, and kayaking, as well as for military maneuvers.. ." Hydration pack - Wikipedia
*** "The USDA recommends a daily intake of total water: ... The recommended intake is 3.7 liters (appx. 1 gallon) per day for an adult male, and 2.7 liters (appx. 0.75 gallon) for an adult female." bbm < not calculated for hot temps like summer in Mojave desert.
Also Hydration Tips & How To Stay Hydrated — CamelBak
Sorry my post was unclear. I find it odd that an experienced desert rat would carry a gallon jug/bottle of water as opposed to using a CamelBak or insulated water bottles. Water heats up quickly in plastic bottles unless frozen beforehand. No quibble with the purported amount of water, however, one gallon for two people in high desert temperatures doesn’t seem sufficient and certainly leaves no room for error.
 
I found the most amazing tool! The FBI's "Crime Data Explorer". This tool shows us that in Arizona, the chances of a 72 year old committing murder are statistically VERY unlikely. VERY.

https://crime-data-explorer.fr.cloud.gov

Search by Arizona, murders, and age

Amateur opinion and speculation
 
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When it comes to a missing person i dont believe there are any "amateur" speculations. I believe all basis need to be looked at. It can always come down to a single piece that some people think are a "amateur speculation"
 
Sorry my post was unclear. I find it odd that an experienced desert rat would carry a gallon jug/bottle of water as opposed to using a CamelBak or insulated water bottles. Water heats up quickly in plastic bottles unless frozen beforehand. No quibble with the purported amount of water, however, one gallon for two people in high desert temperatures doesn’t seem sufficient and certainly leaves no room for error.
@Jazzy5980 Thanks for your post.
Agreeing w you now - unusual to carry 1 gal in single container, esp w n insulation. Glad you cleared that up. Well, that misinterp could have been mine, as sometimes I am a bit dense or too literal (or both :D, I am told occasionally).


To crank up production of the 3 liter hydration packs, now CamelBak can notify furloughed employees to report for second shift again. ;) J/K. LOL.
 
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