Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #19

[scrappinkat]

Isn't that brutal!! It's possible for a student to participate in the graduation and then find out they didn't get all their credits.

The high school my kids attend will not let you attend grad ceremonies unless your grades guarantee you will receive enough credits.

 

[NJSleuth91]

I know most have agreed the odds of the video ever seeing the light of day are slim to nil

I'm still holding out hope...judge me if you want!

but I have to admit, I'd really like to see it even if it's just the portion they showed to the families. After the past month and a half of having my life get swallowed up by this case, reading dozens of articles, pouring over photos, videos, (seriously, I lost count of how many times I watched that Meadow Lake footage) hearing people's descriptions of Kam and Bryer, the towns people, classmates, their parents, Grandma, etc. Then reading all the great theories, photos, videos and reports everyone was has shared on here. I really want to hear these boys speak, to hear what they sound like, to put a voice with the faces and what they had to say for themselves after this whole ordeal. Was it worth it? Were they sorry? I'm still very curious of what it was like for them in those final hours. I don't think it sounds morbid, it's more like an epilogue to this whole narrative.

Same. I don't think it's morbid. We've spent so much time analyzing the information we have on these two and trying to get into their heads. It makes sense that we want to see what they were like "in person," as it were. I think I have a pretty good guess on how they sounded and their mannerisms based on what we know (you know that quote from Mad Men, "by the time you're 40 you've met every type of person there is"?) but I want to see for myself. And of course we want to know what they said, what they were thinking, their emotional state, etc. Their final days were some of the most intense we can imagine, probably, and it's normal to wonder about that.

Also, I still think there are probably videos of them out on the internet somewhere (not related to the crime but just like, gaming or something) and I wonder if those will ever be unearthed.

It just occurred to me also, if they did indeed kill themselves shortly after making this video, the date is stamped on the video file. So the RCMP does know their almost exact time of death, they just didn't want to say.

Yes, I think so.

The wording to me was again, kind of strange. "Lived for a few days after their last sighting, but had been dead for several days when the their bodies were found." They were last sighted on the evening of the 22nd yet they weren't discovered until the 7th. My intuition tells me they must have lasted at least 6-7 days but not past the 31st.

I think it was only 3 or 4 days. They didn't get very far, even given the difficult terrain. I know maybe 2 or 3 days after they went into the woods, there was a night where it was freezing with very heavy rains, and the RCMP tweeted that it would have been very difficult for them to endure. My intuition is they gave up either the day after that, or the day after that. I actually had this feeling they were alive for a few days, at the time when it was happening, and then one day I was just 100% certain they were dead -- I wonder how that added up to the actual timeline.

My coworker insisted they made it until the 3rd possibly even Bryer's Birthday on the 4th because she was convinced animals and insects would have almost completely devoured them by the 7th if they had been dead for more than a week.

She isn't wrong about the decomposition. My guess is any death scene photos of the two of them would fall under the category of "NSFL." They were shipped to Winnipeg in tightly sealed metal coffins for a reason. However, what remains were left, the skeleton and whatever else, would be immediately identifiable due to their height and the items found near them such as the phone (and plus, like, who else is it going to be).

I just cannot believe either of those two would flee the RAV with nothing but the clothes on their back and each with a gun in hand.

I can.

All JMO.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I know most have agreed the odds of the video ever seeing the light of day are slim to nil but I have to admit, I'd really like to see it even if it's just the portion they showed to the families.

SBM - It will be interesting to see what happens. If went to trial, we might get the MSM twitter feeds in real time to find out the content but I'm assuming(?) no trial since suspects are dead.

I don't think the public will be privvy to it anytime soon, however maybe in time the content will be published. I think with high profile cases, details are usually kept private for many years and then eventually details came out.

I don't think any actual video footage will get out but maybe transcripts or the content. I could see RCMP tossing MSM a bone with some content info to publish maybe to satisfy the public's curiosity but then again that would almost be disrespectful to the victims this soon.

Without a trial, no idea if that info will get out. If it does, I feel it'll be when the dust settles and people have had time to heal, it feels too raw and soon right now, all MOO.

 

[MistyWaters]

Interesting wording. Sounds like they already had an idea of what their conclusion would be even back then.

I did think of something though, "digital evidence" at that point could have just referred to the surveillance footage. And also, now, the goodbye video.

Digital evidence would also include such things as any text messages/cellphone and cell tower location data, CCTV. traffic cam footage, dashcam, maybe even satellite data or photos.

 

[MistyWaters]

Not to mention red tape that's involved. This was a high profile case and I'm pretty sure they want to "dot their i's and cross their t's" as a lot of the world is watching and they definitely don't want to mess this up!

There's probably those out there waiting in the wings for them to make any mistake.

Everything happened so very quickly as well. The families may require more time as they deal with their shock and grief. If a trial had occurred they wouldn’t know of the evidence for months if not years and even then it’s very difficult.

 

[musicaljoke]

... The point of informing the families of new information before the general public is to avoid them learning of new information through the media, like what happened to BS. Once the families are informed, they will usually release within a day. moo.

Found this interesting detail:

"Until a charge is sworn before the courts, a person or entity is not formally charged. To release information regarding the identity of a person or entity prior to charges being sworn is a violation of that individual or entity's privacy rights."

So that would be another reason to get charges out as quickly as possible, as it frees them to release information.

source: RCMP and Notifying Next of Kin - Canada.ca

At least a couple of times, the Australian press pre-empted the RCMP live press releases. Unless the RCMP sent press releases to the Australian media ahead of their live press conferences, there were leaks that the RCMP didn't plan on.

This makes me wonder if the families will be informed almost similtaneously with the general public. Any delays between informing the families and the public could result in a mare's nest of information getting out.

 

[musicaljoke]

The high school my kids attend will not let you attend grad ceremonies unless your grades guarantee you will receive enough credits.

That looks like a similar scenerio since the school can't guarantee the outcome of final exams. It seems possible that a student could be sidelined from the grad event and then find out that they actually got their credits after all, or attend grad and discover that they did not get their credits.

I mentioned this in context with the suspects' graduations, wondering if there could have been some post high school disappointments that triggered their murderous final days. Was BS told he didn't have the credits he needed? Did they get rejection letters from their post-secondary schools?

 

[Inkblot]

She isn't wrong about the decomposition. My guess is any death scene photos of the two of them would fall under the category of "NSFL." They were shipped to Winnipeg in tightly sealed metal coffins for a reason. However, what remains were left, the skeleton and whatever else, would be immediately identifiable due to their height and the items found near them such as the phone (and plus, like, who else is it going to be).

Sentence highlighted by me in blue.

I think it's standard that metal containers (coffins) are used when transporting remains by air. It doesn't necessarily mean that the remains are so decomposed that they are leaking, etc. Also, don't know whether it's true or not, but heard on a news broadcast that the remains were going to be confirmed through dental records.

 

[Pyecraft]

Just wanted to say that I appreciate all the WS posters who have kept the discussion going. I appreciate the efforts made especially the discussion and pursuit to understand why or how a person behaves. Keeping the conversation going even when nothing “new” to discuss keeps details fresh in our minds for when something new is released. Better than sitting idle IMO.

Agreed LoisLane, good post considering the frequent shutting down of threads which has often made it very difficult to follow. Each day of discussing the suspect's relationship, has usually mixed a new ingredient into the motive pot. Sadly, I can contribute only some old-school, amateur observation.

We only have BS' story about looking for work, and that told only to his forgiving family. KM's folks might easily have thought loaning KS the family campervan was for a return road-trip. Or, did KM simply steal it? I don't see KM's apparently hard-working dad just handing him the vehicle, unless it offered an exasperated 'last chance' solution. Why was KM not already working in his father's business? I'd think any father would be proud to involve a son in his business.

There's a major imbalance in their relationship; KM had so much more to lose than BS in their escapade. BS's prospect of heading to a construction site from his dad's van every morning would inspire no one, but given Victoria's recent construction boom, how any average-skilled carpenter still lives this way is rather telling. The business card creation (contracting, not employed) is a sad attempt to impress an already gullable boy.

In their long relationship, BS must surely have envied KM's apparent stability many times growing up although he appears to have accepted KM as his mentor. As this trip progresses, perhaps BS begins seeing himself ever more as an equal. Freed from the responsibilities of family compromises, it's easy to imagine this thin relationship fray away from reality.

The burning of the campervan would cause KM some grave guilt issues by the end of their flight. Torching it himself for any reason, surely would have triggered an emotional end to his family life at the very least. But, what if he didn't torch it and only learned of that by the time he arrived in Gillam? Either way, it wouldn't surprise for the blame game to be well underway by the time they're in the deep muskeg, and smoke from the burning Rav4 signals the end approaching.

Perhaps BS unravels completely and wants to surrender, thinks he can go home to grandma. I don't see KS allowing that. But then, nothing would surprise in this very sad tale of so much sorrow all around.

 

[KR72]

Found this page that outlines the stages of body decomposition from a company that specializes in bio-hazard removal. There's no pictures, but the description is fairly graphic, so don't click if you've just eaten or if you're easily grossed out. I'm not squeamish so I didn't find it that disturbing. (When I was a young anthropology student, I actually wanted to work on a body farm.)

The Stages Of Human Decomposition | Aftermath Services

 

[Jan424]

Found this page that outlines the stages of body decomposition from a company that specializes in bio-hazard removal. There's no pictures, but the description is fairly graphic, so don't click if you've just eaten or if you're easily grossed out. I'm not squeamish so I didn't find it that disturbing. (When I was a young anthropology student, I actually wanted to work on a body farm.)

The Stages Of Human Decomposition | Aftermath Services

So I guess they were found in either the 3-5 or 8-10 day stage .... horrible. I have to think they were both cremated. JMO
ETA: this once again brings home (at least for me) the devastation K & B brought down upon their families.

 

[KR72]

So I guess they were found in either the 3-5 or 8-10 day stage .... horrible. I have to think they were both cremated. JMO

That's what I'm thinking, late 3-5 or between 5-8? I think with the gunshot wounds, and whatever insects feeding and animals scavenging, yeah, they must have been cremated, imo.

 

[SnooperDuper]

At least a couple of times, the Australian press pre-empted the RCMP live press releases. Unless the RCMP sent press releases to the Australian media ahead of their live press conferences, there were leaks that the RCMP didn't plan on.

This makes me wonder if the families will be informed almost similtaneously with the general public. Any delays between informing the families and the public could result in a mare's nest of information getting out.

Yes, the media gets the release beforehand and the Australians released info a few minutes before the press conferences a few times which triggered other outlets to release the same info before as well.

 

[SovereignSnake]

I guess I also pictured a scenario where they did have at least a simple tent and a sleeping bag and little bit of food and water. I wondered if they traveled by night because they realized the mosquitoes and flies weren't as active and they could travel close to what remains of PR 290 past Sundance. Then they would put up a tent and try to nap during the day. I do recall the forecast being posted on here though and there were nights where it got nasty rainy and cold. I also remember this story of that guy who got lost in Northern Montana a few days after they found Kam and Bryer in August and he made it 5 days on berries and insects but feared by day 6 he would be dead. Again, it's definitely also up to one's will to live. Like I'm sure Kam and Bryer were in starvation and dehydration mode but it could be possible they lived as long as 7-8 days after the 22nd if they had the desire and determination. Interesting, the other night my friends and I were talking about the case (of course) and we ranked each other who would last the longest in a similar situation. 6'3 and 170 lbs, I gave myself 6-7 days but then I have a ridiculously fast metabolism so I would be starving by day 2.
~Some more thoughts and opinion.

 

[NJSleuth91]

I guess I also pictured a scenario where they did have at least a simple tent and a sleeping bag and little bit of food and water. I wondered if they traveled by night because they realized the mosquitoes and flies weren't as active and they could travel close to what remains of PR 290 past Sundance. Then they would put up a tent and try to nap during the day. I do recall the forecast being posted on here though and there were nights where it got nasty rainy and cold. I also remember this story of that guy who got lost in Northern Montana a few days after they found Kam and Bryer in August and he made it 5 days on berries and insects but feared by day 6 he would be dead. Again, it's definitely also up to one's will to live. Like I'm sure Kam and Bryer were in starvation and dehydration mode but it could be possible they lived as long as 7-8 days after the 22nd if they had the desire and determination. Interesting, the other night my friends and I were talking about the case (of course) and we ranked each other who would last the longest in a similar situation. 6'3 and 170 lbs, I gave myself 6-7 days but then I have a ridiculously fast metabolism so I would be starving by day 2.
~Some more thoughts and opinion.

I think they had at least some basic camping equipment and possibly even food. I wonder what they thought they were going to eat in there though....

You'd be surprised what conditions human beings can physically endure. Like that show "I Shouldn't Be Alive." However, in order to survive you have to have the will to go on. I think their minds quit on them long before their bodies would have. Or in reality, they were out of options for a long time, and it took them that long to accept it, and they really didn't want to go to prison.

Or, did KM simply steal it? I don't see KM's apparently hard-working dad just handing him the vehicle, unless it offered an exasperated 'last chance' solution.

I don't think it was stolen, as they likely would have been reported missing previously. Also, Bryer's grandma and great-uncle knew about the trip before it happened. It's really not that unusual for friends who are recent high school graduates to go on a road trip together. It was probably like a "they can have fun and get some perspective on the real world" thing.

Why was KM not already working in his father's business? I'd think any father would be proud to involve a son in his business.

Because he was 19? Most 19 year olds have a lot to learn, and I get the sense that Kam and Bryer were more immature than the average person their age. My guess is, his parents wanted him to show that he had work ethic first, and not just hand things to him.

BS's prospect of heading to a construction site from his dad's van every morning would inspire no one, but given Victoria's recent construction boom, how any average-skilled carpenter still lives this way is rather telling. The business card creation (contracting, not employed) is a sad attempt to impress an already gullable boy.

Bryer only worked construction for one summer, as far as we know. His dad said in the 60 Minutes interview that he had mental health struggles in the past few years, which likely would explain his homelessness and any lack of regular work.

In their long relationship, BS must surely have envied KM's apparent stability many times growing up although he appears to have accepted KM as his mentor. As this trip progresses, perhaps BS begins seeing himself ever more as an equal.

I think they already saw themselves as equals.

The burning of the campervan would cause KM some grave guilt issues by the end of their flight. Torching it himself for any reason, surely would have triggered an emotional end to his family life at the very least.

On the other hand, they felt that was their only option, and that they could never go back to their old lives anyway.

Perhaps BS unravels completely and wants to surrender, thinks he can go home to grandma. I don't see KS allowing that.

They made a video together. That shows they were on the same page until the end. I'm sure there were arguments and probably the blame game, at some point. But overall they always knew they would stay together. I don't think either of them forced the other into anything at any point.

Also if anything I think it's more likely that Bryer accepted suicide long before Kam, and was just staying alive so as not to abandon Kam. As you said, Kam had a lot more to lose.

All JMO.

 

[SovereignSnake]

I think they had at least some basic camping equipment and possibly even food. I wonder what they thought they were going to eat in there though....

You'd be surprised what conditions human beings can physically endure. Like that show "I Shouldn't Be Alive." However, in order to survive you have to have the will to go on. I think their minds quit on them long before their bodies would have. Or in reality, they were out of options for a long time, and it took them that long to accept it, and they really didn't want to go to prison.



I don't think it was stolen, as they likely would have been reported missing previously. Also, Bryer's grandma and great-uncle knew about the trip before it happened. It's really not that unusual for friends who are recent high school graduates to go on a road trip together. It was probably like a "they can have fun and get some perspective on the real world" thing.



Because he was 19? Most 19 year olds have a lot to learn, and I get the sense that Kam and Bryer were more immature than the average person their age. My guess is, his parents wanted him to show that he had work ethic first, and not just hand things to him.



Bryer only worked construction for one summer, as far as we know. His dad said in the 60 Minutes interview that he had mental health struggles in the past few years, which likely would explain his homelessness and any lack of regular work.



I think they already saw themselves as equals.



On the other hand, they felt that was their only option, and that they could never go back to their old lives anyway.



They made a video together. That shows they were on the same page until the end. I'm sure there were arguments and probably the blame game, at some point. But overall they always knew they would stay together. I don't think either of them forced the other into anything at any point.

Also if anything I think it's more likely that Bryer accepted suicide long before Kam, and was just staying alive so as not to abandon Kam. As you said, Kam had a lot more to lose.

All JMO.

I agree with all of the above @NJSleuth91. I did want to add too, I remember an interview with one of the survival experts and some of the Gillam locals that they could have lived off of blackberries and blueberries for a few days but we all know berries are only going to keep you alive temporarily. Insects (protein) however... Makes me wonder if they were willing to go to that extreme. I would if I was starving. Another thing I wanted to add about Bryer and Kam's relationship. I absolutely agree, they saw each other as equals and one would rather die than face a world without the other by his side or as you said prison. I totally get that. Another thing, I know everyone has suggested that Kam's family was considerably wealthy. I'm not saying they didn't have money but I also don't think they were filthy rich. I would say more upper middle class, doing well but not living a lavish existence either. British Columbia is very expensive and Vancouver is ridiculous. I do think Keith Mcleod (unsure of Mother's name) expected Kam to go out and get a job, begin supporting himself and gain some life perspective. Still, I honestly cannot picture for the life of me either of these boys doing roughneck labor like working on an oil field in Alberta, that dam project in Northern British Columbia or even Keith's barge towing business. Even that sounds rather "gruff" for lack of a better word. I have to wonder if Kam was given an ultimatum to take a summer road trip for a couple weeks, but the "rents" expected a decision on what he's going to do with his life upon return. Something concrete like a big move to a bigger city or college. Wanting neither, Kam and Bryer gave their families an "elevator pitch" of what they're doing for peace of mind and set off with no real plan, just the road and each other. ~All just my opinion of course.

<modsnip - sleuthing family>

 

[KR72]

I'm of two minds about the camper truck. If Kam graduated last year and his first and ONLY job was at Walmart for five weeks along with Bryer, then I feel letting him take the camper was a tad indulgent, imo. If Kam did nothing aside from gaming and playing airsoft in the bush for the last year, then I feel that speaks volumes about his ambition or lack of it in life.

However, we have no idea what, if anything Kam did in the year after his grad, it's quite possible he worked elsewhere before the Walmart gig and if that's the case, then I can see nothing wrong with parents allowing a 19 year old to take the truck to try and find work.

 

[Pyecraft]

That's what I'm thinking, late 3-5 or between 5-8? I think with the gunshot wounds, and whatever insects feeding and animals scavenging, yeah, they must have been cremated, imo.

Certainly deceased by the time that heat-sensor plane was flying overhead. Can anyone calculate the time between burning rav4 and the plane arriving?

Timeline for this is so important; suicide just a couple of days after the rav4 burning and you can see they have already mentally quit. Late 3-5 days afterwards and they appear at least to have had the morale to search for an escape route.

In the former case burning the rav4 makes sense, if the latter then why would they burn their only real chance of getting away? $20 of gas, if penniless, will still take you a fair distance away from where you were last identified.

A last poser, if you'll so indulge. Is it possible LD had worked the fauna of that area and maps of his own trip were still in his rav4? If they weren't instructed by other/s, could this be why they choose to drive to such a perfect suicide spot?

 

[Jan424]

. Another thing I wanted to add about Bryer and Kam's relationship. I absolutely agree, they saw each other as equals and one would rather die than face a world without the other by his side or as you said prison. I totally get that. Another thing, I know everyone has suggested that Kam's family was considerably wealthy. I'm not saying they didn't have money but I also don't think they were filthy rich. I would say more upper middle class, doing well but not living a lavish existence either. British Columbia is very expensive and Vancouver is ridiculous. I do think Keith Mcleod (unsure of Mother's name) expected Kam to go out and get a job, begin supporting himself and gain some life perspective. Still, I honestly cannot picture for the life of me either of these boys doing roughneck labor like working on an oil field in Alberta, that dam project in Northern British Columbia or even Keith's barge towing business. Even that sounds rather "gruff" for lack of a better word. I have to wonder if Kam was given an ultimatum to take a summer road trip for a couple weeks, but the "rents" expected a decision on what he's going to do with his life upon return. Something concrete like a big move to a bigger city or college. Wanting neither, Kam and Bryer gave their families an "elevator pitch" of what they're doing for peace of mind and set off with no real plan, just the road and each other. ~All just my opinion of course.

Also here's Keith's tug and barge towing company. From what I gather he's a co-owner.

Timber Rose Tug and Barge Port Alberni Vancouver Island

SBM
I believe I read in an earlier thread that Kam's family purchased the land quite some time ago, therefore, they were able to purchase at a reasonable price. Then they built their home there. I too agree they were more upper middle class. Also, I have been thinking the same thing ... that Kam's parents gave him some sort of ultimatum before their road trip (maybe there were ongoing discussions/arguments about him going out and getting a job, etc) and finally something just gave. Maybe Kam always "yes'd" them and this was no different when he agreed to the summer road trip. But maybe it was just a sham for Kam and Bryer, they had no intention of looking for work, growing up, and making something of themselves. ALL MOO .... just something that keeps coming back to me when I contemplate this scenario.

 

[Kiantra]

Aug 12, in a CTV news article it states,

“We anticipate that the charge will be abated once the (prosecution service) receives official confirmation that the accused is deceased. That will conclude the prosecution," said Dan McLaughlin”

Considering this and the fact no further charges can be made against a deceased person, how much information do you think the LE will share in their report? What would be left out? Would they share the details leading up to the charges for LD death? Or, will they just share enough to satisfy the public no other suspects are out there? Curious.