Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #112

[tresir2012]

Thanks Tresir !! I now recall hearing something about that, but KG replay of how girls were found included someone finding a shoe, then a searcher saw a Deer and looked up by the deer and that's when they saw the girls. Sort of conflicting info, IMO

Maybe footprints led them to the shoe stuck in some mud first? MOO.

 

[MingyMoo]

I've been thinking about this since I read the article.

I really hope that if the testing hasn't taken place, it's not because of the cost because that's a cause that people all over the country would be happy to donate to, especially if it saves another life.

I'm assuming, like other small departments across the nation, that their funds are limited. If that's what's holding them back, all they need to do is ask for help.

ETA - one would think the FBI would be able to do it but the article didn't suggest that it's an option.

Funds should not be an issue by any department. Solving the murders of two young teenage girls should be a priority>End Of!

I heard the same thing (deer story from KG). Didn’t the person who saw the deer use a phone camera to zoom into the area and that’s how the CS was originally discovered?

That's what I heard as well on what ever podcast or You Tube video

MM

 

[TL4S]

I heard the same thing (deer story from KG). Didn’t the person who saw the deer use a phone camera to zoom into the area and that’s how the CS was originally discovered?

This is all JMO of how it could've happened.

Searches were following a set of footprints leading into the creek from the south side. (At this point they were looking for missing girls, so I see no reason to backtrack footprints, as I've seen mentioned in the past, but that also is JMO) The natural thing to do is then look across the creek to see if you can find prints of someone getting out on the opposite side. I think the shoe was spotted somewhere between the south and north bank. And it makes sense for someone on the south side to use a zoom lens or binoculars to get a better view of something like footprints. So deer or not, I think that's why they were looking over there to begin with.

I hate that KG has to have this memory.

 

[Charlot123]

When I found out LE requested PE's DNA and autopsy report, and that KG uses the Genmatch symbol on her Twitter account, I hoped those things indicated LE does have the perp's DNA. Today I found this article. I'm sure it's been posted before, but it's new to me.

6/1/18

Familial DNA search might unlock Delphi killer's identity

Recently asked about familial DNA searches and the homicide investigation into German and Williams' death, Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said, “Obviously the answer hasn‘t come to the surface, yet.

“This is out of the box, so what can it hurt?”

Leazenby said Indiana State Police Maj. Steve Holland telephoned Leazenby after the Journal & Courier interviewed Holland, who is director of the Indiana State Police laboratories. Leazenby said Holland was giving him a courtesy call to expect the J&C's questions about familial DNA.

“That’s being discussed," Leazenby said of the outcome of Holland's call, "but there hasn’t been a decision made yet. It’s on the table.

“It might help us reach success.”


*I think they have his DNA. JMO

WOW, in June 2018 it was on the table???

It reads like, working with the fingerprints from the crime place would be on the table.

They are building an expensive park in the girls’ name but not having the funds for a potential serial killer? No.

I assume they have DNA and are doing all the necessary work.

 

[steeltowngirl]

WOW, in June 2018 it was on the table???

It reads like, working with the fingerprints from the crime place would be on the table.

They are building an expensive park in the girls’ name but not having the funds for a potential serial killer? No.

I assume they have DNA and are doing all the necessary work.

I guess all we can do right now is assume. Until locals raise holy hell asking for answers, then we all just have to sit, watch, and wait. And hope for the best.

 

[TL4S]

The only thing that we know is criminal activity began straight after that video. Perhaps one ran across and he dragged the other across. Also LE wouldn't admit it, if the reenactments were correct. Didn't GH say LE had talked to him to ask him how he could be so accurate? Unless that was just BS from him.
What if he had a small canoe moored on the bank there and they went across in that? MOO

I was thinking about this. The wording "set of footprints" is vague (like EVERYTHING else in this case), but I initially interpret that as singular. If I assume BG led them down the hill on the south end of the bridge, than I wonder if maybe once they were down in that east corner below the private drive, he grabbed Abby. This would have given Libby a chance to run (I know, friends stick together, but bear with me). If it's Libby's footprints going into the water, and her shoe, and her phone recording "down the hill" but not the attacks, maybe she fell, or dropped her phone in the water, or turned off the recording to try to call for help? Trying to call for help would be reason enough to run.

So how did they end up together on the other side? I don't know. Maybe he had a gun and threatened to shoot her or Abby, and she stopped. Or maybe Abby was screaming for her. Or maybe she was in a deeper part of the creek and struggling to cross, which took long enough for him to lead Abby across the shallower area and catch up (Riley said he knew where to cross, and where not to cross). At some point, they met with Libby and he took them to where he killed them. This isn't the way the reenactments had it happen (that I've seen). Just a thought...

 

[FinePrint]

I've been thinking about this since I read the article.

I really hope that if the testing hasn't taken place, it's not because of the cost because that's a cause that people all over the country would be happy to donate to, especially if it saves another life.

I'm assuming, like other small departments across the nation, that their funds are limited. If that's what's holding them back, all they need to do is ask for help.

ETA - one would think the FBI would be able to do it but the article didn't suggest that it's an option.

I’m surprised at this point the family or some interested party haven’t hired a top notch private investigator.

I’m sure people from all over would donate to that as well. Including me!

 

[tresir2012]

COMPARING DELPHI VENTURES TO CONNER PRIAIRIE

Recently Canal President Dan McCain made some comparisons to Conner Prairie’s very popular indoor/outdoor museum. “Although we are in a much smaller community 50 miles north of Noblesville, we are somewhat in the same league since we have been attracting visitors from all over the US and even from other countries in the world. On the Canal Center’s weekly attendance register for the warmer six months of each year names of visitors signing in represent an average of a dozen states per week – even a country or two per week,” McCain stated.

He was comparing successes of Conner Prairie as a historical site in a recent release by Indianapolis Business Journal quoting the new CEO from their 800 acre site in Hamilton County. “Conner Prairie is well-known nationally to museum insiders. The new CEO and President, Norman Burns II, wants to make the historical park even better.” And so does McCain in envisioning an even bigger draw of visitors coming to Canal Park in Delphi. One recent example was the local hosting of a multi-state museum group’s conference at Delphi. The Midwest Open-air Museum’s Coordinating Council (MOMCC) brought eighty six leaders from nine states and was assisted in program planning by Conner Prairie staff, MOMCC leaders, and locally by Julia Leahy and Mark Smith.

DelphiTimes.net

I am sure LE have looked at that weekly attendance register right?

 

[tresir2012]

WOW, in June 2018 it was on the table???

It reads like, working with the fingerprints from the crime place would be on the table.

They are building an expensive park in the girls’ name but not having the funds for a potential serial killer? No.

I assume they have DNA and are doing all the necessary work.

Maybe they have done the work already and have potential matches or are waiting for them?

 

[dalsglen]

That's the difference between USA and UK we are a small island/s and equivalent in size to the State of Oregon. Our perception of Local is very different to the USA and on a lot smaller scale

In its entirety, the United Kingdom is about 94,000 square miles in size. Oregon is just under 96,000 square miles. Wyoming is just over 93,000 square miles, which makes the difference in square miles less between Wyoming and the United Kingdom.

MM

Lol that made me chuckle too. I'd say we're rural, and 20 miles would take me to Edinburgh. Local to me,means just that, local as in my local town.

 

[Jbetty567]

And I think therein lies the confusion. Which of those two sketches is the killer and which is a witness and/or an accomplice?

I'm at the point now where I want to disregard both sketches. LE has stated that the person in the video is the killer, right? So his gait, his appearance and his blurred face is the one we should be looking for. And from were I sit, he doesn't look like he's under 30 years old.

Completely agree. I made my clueless husband look at the pic and he said chunky guy, at least mid 30s. Unless they have some info that they aren’t sharing as to the reliability of the new sketch, I’m inclined to back-burner it.

 

[moonlessnight]

I'm not sure where they were where they found the shoe, but it seems like you wouldn't be able to see anything on the other side of the creek unless they were not flat on the ground. Possibly if you were elevated above the level of the area where they were found you could see something and then zoom in with binoculars or a camera. I have no point really, other than how easily could you see them over there from the opposite side of the creek?

KG and CP had walked down the road from the S end of the bridge opposite where the bodies were found and either did not look over there or did not see them.

Maybe footprints led them to the shoe stuck in some mud first? MOO.

 

[moonlessnight]

I'm sure we've discussed this. I'm sure they at least have enough for Y-STR DNA in which they can determine family line on the male side. So they can figure out which family the perp is from, but they can't tell which male is the killer.

Y-STR - Wikipedia

Maybe they have done the work already and have potential matches or are waiting for them?

 

[Boxer]

This was exactly what I was talking about. Let’s just say a witness calls in the tip line that he was there that day and heard a “couple” arguing under the bridge. I don’t think anyone near that bridge when those girls were abducted would not have noticed this scenario as wrong at best. I also don’t believe anyone other than BG and the girls were under the bridge that day. I also believe that they fought for their lives, screamed, ran, anything. So police go back to all of the cars that were there and they’re missing one - BGs. Two years later, the “couple” arguing under the bridge never pans out, all other witnesses are accounted for as to cars but one - by process of elimination they believe this is BG reporting the couple under the bridge. Then he’s gone. No one saw his vehicle. How convenient that this location is so close to the CS and no one saw it. I personally think the vehicle at the CPS building is a red herring. I do not think he would ever risk parking in plain sight much less so far from the CS he would risk passing people. Police put this all together and this witness is BG. He gave false ID, never came in for an interview and possibly provided a bad address - perhaps a reason for a police raid early on. He has ghosted LE and they changed their strategy. Unfortunately a little late, MOO

MOO If police officers interviewed him a sketch would have been done and distributed right away don't you think?

 

[Charlot123]

My own state... It took 20 years and several crime task forces to catch the Green River killer. (I think the police could have done it sooner; on the other hand, prostitutes are a complicated group to work with, they are transient, so that might have been a factor).

However - Dave Reichert who finally caught him became a local hero, and the fame propelled him into higher politics. US Congress. Usually his affiliation has poor chance in our blue state, but everyone respects the guy who gets the job done.

The Delphi case might be make or break it for the Indiana PD. They catch this guy and put him behind bars - they are heroes, up to promotions, political nominations, book deals, whatnot. Even if they made some mistakes at the very beginning, everyone will understand.

They lose the perp - and god forbid he gets on a murder spree - and no Shack rhetoric will be able to hide the obvious fact, that they can’t even manage own towns and own criminals, be it Delphi or Flora.

Criminals leave traces. I am positive that even for Parabon, people will donate, if ISP has no money, or there are other companies that may do the same job. I think lots of people and institutions will be willing to help ISP out. As long as they do something and don’t sit on facts and clues.

 

[Charlot123]

That's the difference between USA and UK we are a small island/s and equivalent in size to the State of Oregon. Our perception of Local is very different to the USA and on a lot smaller scale

In its entirety, the United Kingdom is about 94,000 square miles in size. Oregon is just under 96,000 square miles. Wyoming is just over 93,000 square miles, which makes the difference in square miles less between Wyoming and the United Kingdom.

MM

Switzerland is like the state of WA, but you look at the population density. The Gibraltar is probably way smaller than my town.

 

[Nadal]

My own state... It took 20 years and several crime task forces to catch the Green River killer. (I think the police could have done it sooner; on the other hand, prostitutes are a complicated group to work with, they are transient, so that might have been a factor).

The problem with that case was the Green River Killer covered such a large area (Ridgway even deliberately dumped bodies in other States to throw investigators off) that there was a massive list of potential suspects who frequented prostitutes and were violent towards them, most of which had worse complaints against them than Ridgeway because he rarely left his victims alive of course. It was a needle in a haystack and even if Ridgway had been their prime suspect (he wasn't) it was almost impossible to build a case against him, it was solved as soon as DNA Testing advanced enough to identify him.

 

[Charlot123]

I'm sure we've discussed this. I'm sure they at least have enough for Y-STR DNA in which they can determine family line on the male side. So they can figure out which family the perp is from, but they can't tell which male is the killer.

Y-STR - Wikipedia

I am thinking, if they got a Y, they have at least partial DNA. I also assume that if they have Y, they have mito DNA - it does not come from the nucleus, it comes from the cell “power stations” that are abundant in any cell. So Y + mito will give direct paternal and maternal line, that can narrow down the group of suspects.

I think the problem is something different. (And sadly, it might be something like what happened to me after my first amniocentesis - the power outage in Dynacare lab that night led to loss of 25 cultures. JMO because I don’t know what else it might be).

 

[Charlot123]

The problem with that case was the Green River Killer covered such a large area (Ridgway even deliberately dumped bodies in other States to throw investigators off) that there was a massive list of potential suspects who frequented prostitutes and were violent towards them, most of which had worse complaints against them than Ridgeway because he rarely left his victims alive of course. It was a needle in a haystack and even if Ridgway had been their prime suspect (he wasn't) it was almost impossible to build a case against him, it was solved as soon as DNA Testing advanced enough to identify him.

His house was in Kent. When he abducted one of the girls, her father and brother followed his truck and gave a good description. If the police only bothered to search his house that day, he’d be behind bars many years earlier.

But this is not the point I made. GRK was apprehended. And Dave got his book deal, his fame and his career. Granted, he is good-looking, such a model sheriff, and smart. But - he’d be a nobody were GRK never caught.

 

[Charlot123]

The reported witness to the "couple under the bridge" is known, I believe. Whether or not his statement has been confirmed, or whether the couple were "arguing," I don't know. After that, there's nothing else said about them. Was there a couple? Were they accounted for? Were they two of the witnesses LE has talked about? Were they arguing because they saw a man harming two young girls and one wanted to report while the other didn't (maybe because they were up to no good themselves)? There's too many unknowns, and part of the reason I don't like relying on SM, family, and GH recollections of witnesses is because there's so many variables and contradicting stories.

As for the car, I think if it was a red herring, LE would be asking about it more. It was quietly put out there at the start of the PC, then only mentioned again when asked by interviewers. I, personally, wonder if LE knows after over 2 years, nobody will have reliable information on this car. I'm hopeful the car belongs to BG, and whatever info makes YBG the new face, also makes that car newly significant.

I am thinking that it might have been like “you fr... b... , get down the hill!” And one of the girls, “No, I wont’t, you crazy a..le!”

And an old guy barely hearing the words, but definitely catching the intonation.