GUILTY CA - Boat fire near Santa Cruz Island; 34 missing, Sept 2019 *captain charged*

[IQuestion]

If I had to guess, many dive operations are making changes to charging of items on board as we speak - as in, strict language about what can be plugged in where, and even removal of electrical ports in spots other than those easy to monitor. Probably everyone will be required to unplug overnight. MOO but generally the dive community is pretty responsible and responsive to tragedies like this one.

TNHYBRID, (I promise this is my last long question for the weekend) I am going to agree with you 100 percent about the "dive community" being responsive to tragedies. These are adventurous individuals who are already doing something I could NEVER do! They are strong, fit & gone through lots of training in less than ideal conditions. Sooooo, If they (the group/dive organizer etc)
had been aware there was no one assigned as a night watch.... wouldn't they willingly volunteer to lose a couple hours of sleep to help cover the shortfall? I am thinking along the lines of "don't dive alone" as a precursor to having two people volunteer to stay awake at a time, thereby lessening the chance of one falling asleep. Just thinking out loud: And wondering if that might be a viable, "volunteer-type" set up organized by the dive manager, when you have large groups??
Oh, and you mentioned you have been on "liveaboard" diving boats....in your opinion, would it be an option for a fireproof door, one that can be closed quickly to stop the smoke from spilling into the sleeping areas below deck be another possible change??

 

[BeachSky]

There are some things in this briefing from NTSB that I did not see in print.
Two crew members went back from the Grape Escape, one went on board.
She says - they could not get through the windows- . I’m not sure what that meant.
The smoke detectors in the bunk area had wires - but were not connected to anything. (They said the yr that boat was built - it was not required) JMO

NTSB tour of the Vision ..the stairs, the hatch are so cramped.I can’t imagine 33 people on those stairs let alone the hatch...it seemed crowded with just the investigators. JMO

 

[tnhybrid]

TNHYBRID, (I promise this is my last long question for the weekend) I am going to agree with you 100 percent about the "dive community" being responsive to tragedies. These are adventurous individuals who are already doing something I could NEVER do! They are strong, fit & gone through lots of training in less than ideal conditions. Sooooo, If they (the group/dive organizer etc)
had been aware there was no one assigned as a night watch.... wouldn't they willingly volunteer to lose a couple hours of sleep to help cover the shortfall? I am thinking along the lines of "don't dive alone" as a precursor to having two people volunteer to stay awake at a time, thereby lessening the chance of one falling asleep. Just thinking out loud: And wondering if that might be a viable, "volunteer-type" set up organized by the dive manager, when you have large groups??
Oh, and you mentioned you have been on "liveaboard" diving boats....in your opinion, would it be an option for a fireproof door, one that can be closed quickly to stop the smoke from spilling into the sleeping areas below deck be another possible change??

I doubt anyone in the group thought about the night patrol, honestly. They probably assumed someone was keeping an eye out - until we get more details I'm not sure what I think about that part of the story. Apparently someone checked the bunk area about a half hour before the fire?

The issues with a fireproof door are, in my mind: The fire could start inside the bunks and trap people inside; alsothe door could trap people inside in the event of water coming through the hull, which honestly would probably be a more immediate hazard in the minds of most people. That's also why they don't put sprinklers on boats, btw.

Oh, and - you're not bothering me at all IQuestion!! Ask away

 

[FrostOwl]

A fire can go from being very small to a raging inferno in a few minutes, I remember seeing a film about the fire in King's Cross underground station in London in 1987. The fire was first reported at 19.30 and there were a flashover at 19.45, killing 31 people. King's Cross fire - Wikipedia
Whether there were a night patrol or not, it was most likely done once every half-hour or so, and that would give a fire more than enough time to go from start to an explosion, trapping the people below deck.

 

[Charlot123]

CRBM (colored red by me) and snipped

Foam filled benches. Interesting focus. Probably just a coincidence, but the horrific fire at the Station Nightclub began when onstage pyrotechnics ignited the foam placed around the stage area. The foam was installed to address noise complaints made by folks living in the adjacent neighborhood. However, it was not the type of soundproofing foam that belonged in that setting. It was incredibly flammable.

Here's the official report (pdf) by Homeland Security. It is a rather large PDF file: 21 MB

Interesting, and maybe, not a coincidence. I immediately jumped to the fire in Kemerovo (a Siberian city) shopping mall, claiming the lives of 60 people. There, a highly possible reason is the foam.


2018 Kemerovo fire - Wikipedia

“deputy governor Vladimir Chernov said that the preliminary suspicion is that a child had a cigarette lighter which ignited foam rubber in a children's trampoline room and erupted in the fashion of gunpowder”

I saw the video from that trampoline room and it is true that at a certain moment, a fiery blast appears for a second, and then the fire starts spreading. It seems that modern building materials are not only flammable, but they burn with a lot of smoke, too,

 

[helenff]

(O/T, thank you for the warning and you are right. Horrific. While I clearly remembered that event, I still haaaad to go down the full rabbit hole after you guys mentioned it here. I have since obsessively studied the case inside and out for 2 days straight now. I have updated the thread with many many references and content. I think it’s very important that everyone knows what happened that day and that nobody forgets about that fire. It’s important that the Station Fire remain fresh in our minds in order that required safety measures continue to be implemented and enforced. I hope to God no clubs are still using that foam as soundproofing and I hope that all business have their sprinklers, etc. Also I’ve posted a Gamma model simulation video over there which also touches on the behavior models, etc that occur during such an event. I am interested in approaching that model as related to the chaos that that happens during our ever increasing mass shootings.

Thread Link:
GUILTY - RI - The Station Nightclub Fire, 100 dead at Great White concert, 20 Feb 2003 )

It's interesting which cases haunt you. For me, it is often those cases where for whatever reason my brain can't quite comprehend the extraordinary horror survivors (and non-survivors) have been through. Here, I have been reading this thread unable to quite come to terms with how 30+ people can die without having a chance to escape, and trying to understand the surrounds they were in, a possible cause, and what went so wrong.

I too saw the Station Fire reference on this thread and have done little but read about it since. Such a shocking awful reminder of fire safety. I saw the image (warning, mention of death) of people trapped in the doorway and felt compelled to find out if any of them survived (some did).

 

[Betty P]

It's interesting which cases haunt you. For me, it is often those cases where for whatever reason my brain can't quite comprehend the extraordinary horror survivors (and non-survivors) have been through. Here, I have been reading this thread unable to quite come to terms with how 30+ people can die without having a chance to escape, and trying to understand the surrounds they were in, a possible cause, and what went so wrong.

I too saw the Station Fire reference on this thread and have done little but read about it since. Such a shocking awful reminder of fire safety. I saw the image (warning, mention of death) of people trapped in the doorway and felt compelled to find out if any of them survived (some did).

Yes, the Station Fire was a horrible event. The only positive aspect was that much was learned from it. To the some people, the fire regulations, safety inspections, etc. imposed by governments seem onerous and unnecessary, but they're built on a solid history of research into these kinds of tragic events. Not all tragedies can be prevented, but many are. Trust the experts and pay attention to what they're telling you.

Another tragic fire that resulted in a lot of safety improvements was the Beverly Hills Supper Club fire in 1977. Because that fire became so deadly because it went unnoticed for a while, it shows the importance of having working smoke detectors everywhere. Also highlights the importance of having well marked exits, maps, etc.
Beverly Hills Supper Club fire - Wikipedia

ETA: I have nothing but the greatest respect for NTSB and the work they do. They're amazing and they've saved countless lives.

It's very tragic if, as they say, there were unwired smoke alarms on the boat. I don't understand how an owner of a business can justify not having full fire safety equipment in place simply because they're exempt from the regulation due to a "grandfather clause". If later research and regulation shows you need improvements in your safety equipment, just do it even if its not requires.

 

[al66pine]

Boat. Changes in Construction, Deviating from Plans, in the Conception?

Interesting, and maybe, not a coincidence. I immediately jumped to the fire in Kemerovo (a Siberian city) shopping mall, claiming the lives of 60 people. There, a highly possible reason is the foam.
2018 Kemerovo fire - Wikipedia ....

@Charlot123 Thanks for your post and link, which led me to another Russian nightclub fire.

Lame Horse fire - Wikipedia
"....December 5, 2009, nightclub Khromaya Loshad ...Perm, Russia. The fire started when sparks from pyrotechnics ignited the low ceiling and its willow twig covering. The fire quickly spread to the walls and damaged the building's electrical wiring, causing the lights to fail...."
Temp: 16 degrees below zero! Willow twigs ^ in ceiling?

Same fire. "... club premises certificate was obtained in 2007 in a fraudulent way. Officials had turned a blind eye, and there were no official checks of the construction work carried out around 2004-2006. Checks performed after the fire revealed some critically important differences from the original planning permission..."
bbm Earlier in thread I posted, asking about whether there might have been changes in the Conception, variations from original plans, re emergency hatch placement and/or placement of the bunk(s) underneath it. I wonder.

 

[Betty P]

I doubt anyone in the group thought about the night patrol, honestly. They probably assumed someone was keeping an eye out - until we get more details I'm not sure what I think about that part of the story. Apparently someone checked the bunk area about a half hour before the fire?

The issues with a fireproof door are, in my mind: The fire could start inside the bunks and trap people inside; also the door could trap people inside in the event of water coming through the hull, which honestly would probably be a more immediate hazard in the minds of most people. That's also why they don't put sprinklers on boats, btw.

Oh, and - you're not bothering me at all IQuestion!! Ask away

BBM

Thanks for that info. I was just thinking it would be difficult to design a plan for fire doors on a boat or ship. How does the US Navy do it? You certainly wouldn't want to put passengers at risk of being trapped if the craft was taking on water. The maritime industry has had hundreds of years to develop better designs for safety. Fire and taking on water have been a major risk for eons. Surely there's something that can be learned from this, some way to make these boats safer.

I'm still going with my gut reaction when I first read of this accident: No way you should have that many people sleeping in that space below deck, especially when they're the general public and not familiar with that boat or trained in fighting fires. Just no. I'm still surprised that sleeping arrangement was approved at all. JMO.

 

[IQuestion]

BBM

Thanks for that info. I was just thinking it would be difficult to design a plan for fire doors on a boat or ship. How does the US Navy do it? You certainly wouldn't want to put passengers at risk of being trapped if the craft was taking on water. The maritime industry has had hundreds of years to develop better designs for safety. Fire and taking on water have been a major risk for eons. Surely there's something that can be learned from this, some way to make these boats safer.

I'm still going with my gut reaction when I first read of this accident: No way you should have that many people sleeping in that space below deck, especially when they're the general public and not familiar with that boat or trained in fighting fires. Just no. I'm still surprised that sleeping arrangement was approved at all. JMO.

BETTYP!!!! FROM YOUR POST "I'm still going with my gut reaction when I first read of this accident: No way you should have that many people sleeping in that space below deck, especially when they're the general public and not familiar with that boat or trained in fighting fires."
Perfect post, btw. The first photos of the stacked berths and narrow walkway between them...ugh.
This 42 second video by Sailor James is very informative.
Conception boat deck, sleeping quarters seen in 2018 footage

 

[danzn16]

BETTYP!!!! FROM YOUR POST "I'm still going with my gut reaction when I first read of this accident: No way you should have that many people sleeping in that space below deck, especially when they're the general public and not familiar with that boat or trained in fighting fires."
Perfect post, btw. The first photos of the stacked berths and narrow walkway between them...ugh.
This 42 second video by Sailor James is very informative.
Conception boat deck, sleeping quarters seen in 2018 footage

There are thousands of deep sea fishing boats and scuba boats being using DAILY just like this. And the max was in the 40s. For decades there has been no incident like this on a boat similar. It’s terrible that something like this had to happen to make aware such a danger. I would think of a ship sinking before I thought of fire

 

[BeachSky]

No Cause Determined in Dive Boat Fire That Killed 34 People Off Santa Cruz Island, Official Says

Investigators completed a two-week examination of the charred wreckage of a scuba diving boat and could not determine what ignited the fire that killed 34 people off the Southern California coast, a law enforcement official said Friday.....

Any criminal charges would likely involve an obscure federal law known as the seaman's manslaughter statute. It only requires showing negligence or that the captain or crew committed misconduct or neglected their duties. That means an inability to determine the fire's exact cause may not affect the criminal case.

 

[danzn16]

I wonder how common it is to not be able to find out what started the fire. I feel like the only possibility could have been the lithium batteries igniting one. It seems highly unlikely if a passenger themselves started one but that would be the other remote possibility. How frustrating for the families that there won’t be an answer for them

 

[Kubirai]

I wonder how common it is to not be able to find out what started the fire. I feel like the only possibility could have been the lithium batteries igniting one. It seems highly unlikely if a passenger themselves started one but that would be the other remote possibility. How frustrating for the families that there won’t be an answer for them

I read that the exact cause of 1 out of 5 fires are not discovered. I will look for the original source, but it was in an article about
a fire in Halifax that killed 7 Syrian refugee children.

Everyone assumed electric baseboard heaters, but they were all turned off. Investigation didn't find the cause.

Trump Tower fire was traced to power bars with much load on them. Lithium battery ignition leaves a chemical trace, so we can probably take that off the list.

 

[al66pine]

....
Trump Tower fire was traced to power bars with much load on them. Lithium battery ignition leaves a chemical trace, so we can probably take that off the list.

@Kubirai Thanks for your post. sbm
Do you think it is likely that investigators of this boat fire would detect lithium traces?
Thx in adv.

 

[Kubirai]

@Kubirai Thanks for your post. sbm
Do you think it is likely that investigators of this boat fire would detect lithium traces?
Thx in adv.

I am guessing that they didn't find signs of Lithium fire. The burnt metal from power bars and devices may have fallen onto the ocean floor. I don't know how much divers collected.

 

[TristanP]

There are thousands of deep sea fishing boats and scuba boats being using DAILY just like this. And the max was in the 40s. For decades there has been no incident like this on a boat similar. It’s terrible that something like this had to happen to make aware such a danger. I would think of a ship sinking before I thought of fire

This incident is definitely a horrifying example of why this shouldn’t be happening anywhere, ever. It’s so awful.

 

[firebird]

This incident is definitely a horrifying example of why this shouldn’t be happening anywhere, ever. It’s so awful.

Some people don't mind taking extremely remote risks. Driving showering, flying and eating peanuts, just for example. If the remote possibility of death is a concern to a person, they should definitely not go out on a boat such as this. I probably wouldn't. Too close quarters for me. But scuba divers are generally, by nature, risk takers. Getting eaten by a shark...drowning...and so on.

 

[margarita25]

A fire can go from being very small to a raging inferno in a few minutes, I remember seeing a film about the fire in King's Cross underground station in London in 1987. The fire was first reported at 19.30 and there were a flashover at 19.45, killing 31 people. King's Cross fire - Wikipedia
Whether there were a night patrol or not, it was most likely done once every half-hour or so, and that would give a fire more than enough time to go from start to an explosion, trapping the people below deck.

The people in the Station Nightclub Fire basically had approx 88 seconds or less to be out.

I just finished the full gov’t report. Temperatures and oxygen levels can become “untenable” in just a few seconds to minutes, and as you said, raging inferno in no time.

 

[FrostOwl]

This incident is definitely a horrifying example of why this shouldn’t be happening anywhere, ever. It’s so awful.

Yes, it's a horrifying accident, but unfortunately it's not possible to prevent every incident that can cause accidents and deaths. We don't know what caused this fire, and what actions could have been taken to prevent it. It's first after something have happened that steps can be taken to prevent that something similar is going to happen again. Maybe one lesson to learn from this accident is to not load a lot of cellphones, computers et cetera at the same time during the night in a small space.