Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #47

[Deefind]

Oh ok I see said the blind man..... yes it appears Mr Savage memory is failing him.. I wonder where Ronald Chapmen’s statement ties into all of this... and Frank let’s not forget about him.. N then there’s McInnlly who saw someone pushing something down in a car that morning.. was it in his front yard or in front of the post office or Drs mmmmm can’t remember...

 

[JLZ]

No, I haven't seen it, Warsh. But there are a couple of articles about it. They have a few different details between them. They also asked in the questionnaire the names of every tradesperson who may have worked at people's houses in a one year period (just mentioning that because it hasn't been mentioned here recently).

I'm also curious about the wording of the questionnaire and who might have been left out. For example, "tradesperson" (if that word was used) is open to interpretation. What about cleaners, helpers with basic gardening? What about someone who was in the habit of coming over unannounced and might have turned up and also left without a sign while the resident was out shopping? Could anyone have been not mentioned out of awkwardness/discretion, the questionnee being sure in his/her own mind that the person either didn't come around or had nothing to do with the disappearance?

 

[JLZ]

Are you saying that PS answered during the inquest that he wasn't sure if FGM had grandchildren, even though he also said during the inquest that he had met them before and watched W follow FD around and surmised they had a good relationship??

Perhaps the question was confusing? Either he wasn't sure of the relationship between the children and FGM, or he did know that they weren't her real grandchildren and he wasn't sure whether she was grandmother to other children.

 

[SouthAussie]

I'm also curious about the wording of the questionnaire and who might have been left out. For example, "tradesperson" (if that word was used) is open to interpretation. What about cleaners, helpers with basic gardening? What about someone who was in the habit of coming over unannounced and might have turned up and also left without a sign while the resident was out shopping? Could anyone have been not mentioned out of awkwardness/discretion, the questionnee being sure in his/her own mind that the person either didn't come around or had nothing to do with the disappearance?

All I can find about the questionnaire are these items ....

1. List all deliveries and tradespeople their home had received over a one-year period
2. Document their movements the morning William went missing
3. Questions on who was present in their homes between 9.30am and 10.30am on the day William went missing
4. What clubs or groups they were involved in
5. What vehicles they owned or used
6. How they became aware William Tyrrell went missing

I think it was not every person in the area who was questioned with these details, but those persons who were included in more than 400 Persons of Interest packs.
"The inquest was also told more than 400 “persons-of-interest packages” were created as police tried to identify and interview every person who could have taken William."

And I think the survey questions were asked by officers - the survey was not just delivered then collected/handed in.
"Officers spent months interviewing hundreds of the 1,140 people living in the town with a list of set questions before making more targeted inquiries with so-called persons of interest."


Doubt over William Tyrrell foster mother's claim two cars seen in street
Child In Spiderman Suit Seen In Car The Day William Disappeared

 

[JLZ]

Yes, it is hard to imagine that he was out and about, and the FF were out and about at FGM's house, that he did not see the children running around the house playing chasey, riding bike in the driveway, laughing and roaring - and he was not aware that they were there.

He returned before MFC's departure. Were the kids playing outside before 9?

Unless the FF car was parked under the house overnight, PS probably noticed it at the start of his walk.

 

[bearbear]

Things like when PS was asked if he knew if the FGM had grandchildren & he replied I'm not sure & GJ just shook his head.

And when PS was asked if he heard the children playing after he returned from his walk & he was on his front verandah having tea & toast & he said he assumed they were from Ellendale or the FGM's ( from his statement) & than he was asked if he he saw the children & he responded " I didn't see them at all actually"...........lots of sigh's from GJ

Many more that I can't re-call atm......

maybe gj recorded those earlier conversations with ps because he was witness to something but gj was aware of ps failing memory and dithering and needed a solid recording of what he saw, could he be now shaking his head because the "dementia" has progressed his memory to nothing or because hes thinks ps is lying?

 

[Wexford]

I'm also curious about the wording of the questionnaire and who might have been left out. For example, "tradesperson" (if that word was used) is open to interpretation. What about cleaners, helpers with basic gardening? What about someone who was in the habit of coming over unannounced and might have turned up and also left without a sign while the resident was out shopping? Could anyone have been not mentioned out of awkwardness/discretion, the questionnee being sure in his/her own mind that the person either didn't come around or had nothing to do with the disappearance?

Carers....

 

[Wexford]

Can you elaborate/provide a link or something about what you are talking about here? I have no recollection of AJ being said to go and fuel up his car and join the search - do you mean on the day W disappeared? That just about made me fall off my chair! TIA!

I think it was in the Lia Harris tweets when KC was on the stand. That is the only place I remember reading it.

 

[SouthAussie]

maybe gj recorded those earlier conversations with ps because he was witness to something but gj was aware of ps failing memory and dithering and needed a solid recording of what he saw, could he be now shaking his head because the "dementia" has progressed his memory to nothing or because hes thinks ps is lying?

.
No mention of dementia anywhere at the inquest.


"So is your memory cloudy?" Mr Craddock said.
"Yes it is," Mr Savage replied.
William Tyrrell inquest witness Paul Savage grilled in court after changing his story

He also agreed with his lawyer Chris McGorey that compared with five years ago, his memory was “not real good”.
William Tyrrell neighbour breaks down at inquest

 

[Wexford]

An informant would give evidence in a closed court. You can see by the Lawyer X Royal Commission the lengths police to to to protect their informers.

Courts can only do so much to protect the identity of informants. There is always a risk of the informant bumping into someone they know at court. But if there is a suppression order over the name, then it’s an offence for anyone to disclose that persons name. If someone is a police informant, then it’s the job of police to protect that person from having their identity disclosed. That would likely include not having them come in the main entrance or walking around the courthouse.

Thank you Cleaver Greene. Your input is much appreciated. I was just trying to establish if some of the times the court was closed was pre-arranged due to the person who would be speaking so it would not be obvious who had made the request. Or is that in the brief?

 

[Wexford]

Things like when PS was asked if he knew if the FGM had grandchildren & he replied I'm not sure & GJ just shook his head.

And when PS was asked if he heard the children playing after he returned from his walk & he was on his front verandah having tea & toast & he said he assumed they were from Ellendale or the FGM's ( from his statement) & than he was asked if he he saw the children & he responded " I didn't see them at all actually"...........lots of sigh's from GJ

Many more that I can't re-call atm......

At the inquest, didn't he also mention seeing the two cars parked on the road but had not mentioned that in his original statement? also I think there was some discrepancy about him speaking to Mr and Mrs Crabbe?

 

[sosocurious]

I think it was in the Lia Harris tweets when KC was on the stand. That is the only place I remember reading it.

It was said in the ACA segment. The clip where AJ is going off at the reporters out front of the police station. When he gave his first public alibi. He told family he was going to get fuel and help search for the boy. But did not carry through.

 

[Karinna]

I think in legal terms PS would be referred to as a non credible witness? Especially if he can't keep his story straight, and maybe that needs further investigation as to why? IMO.

 

[Loxoli]

I thought the kids were said to have been riding their bikes in the driveway at 9am, just after FD left?

I’ve looked and can’t find the exact times. Can someone please clarify what time the kids were riding their bikes in the driveway, what time PS returned home from his walk and what time he was having breakfast on the porch?

My understanding was that this all happened around the same time- about 9am. But I could be wrong.

 

[bearbear]

sorry off topic but frustratingly why when i answer posts sometimes they disappear into the original file and have to be expanded to read instead of standing alone with the original post above? is it the difference between quote or reply function?

 

[SouthAussie]

I’ve looked and can’t find the exact times. Can someone please clarify what time the kids were riding their bikes in the driveway, what time PS returned home from his walk and what time he was having breakfast on the porch?

My understanding was that this all happened around the same time- about 9am. But I could be wrong.

It was all about at the same time. The kids were riding in the driveway 'at 9am'. Is that an approximate? I think so. From what I can see about the FM's time slots, they are all at rounded times.

Savage returned from his walk at about 8:50am (his words, with his poor recall).

 

[SouthAussie]

sorry off topic but frustratingly why when i answer posts sometimes they disappear into the original file and have to be expanded to read instead of standing alone with the original post above? is it the difference between quote or reply function?

Need to make sure the reply is after the last 'quote' mark, not before it.

 

[Cleaver Greene]

Thank you Cleaver Greene. Your input is much appreciated. I was just trying to establish if some of the times the court was closed was pre-arranged due to the person who would be speaking so it would not be obvious who had made the request. Or is that in the brief?

Usually an application for a closed court would be made in advance if an informant was giving evidence so everyone would know in advance if the court will be closed and whether the witness will appear under a pseudonym. Usually the only opposition would be the media. Most parties at a court hearing don’t really care if the court is closed or portions suppressed.

Occasionally something will crop up out of nowhere during a hearing and there will be a rushed application to close the court or the Coroner will make a ruling themselves to close the court or suppress the evidence.

Every Coroner will run things differently. But it would make sense that all the parties would agree beforehand the circumstances under which evidence will be called. So there will have been lots of work done behind the scenes before the hearing even opens to iron out these issues.

 

[SouthAussie]

At the inquest, didn't he also mention seeing the two cars parked on the road but had not mentioned that in his original statement? also I think there was some discrepancy about him speaking to Mr and Mrs Crabbe?

Also, he went to FGM's and heard that FM was making tea when William disappeared.
Also, he searched sewer pipes.
Also, forgot he saw FD upset and crying. (Was FD upset and crying while Savage was supposedly inside his own house, oblivious to what was going on outside?)

Things that were not in his original statement, or (some/all?) his walkthrough video.


Mr Savage was also questioned about the sightings of two cars he had mentioned seeing on Benaroon Drive in a 2016 police statement.
It was suggested by Mr Craddock that these sightings were added to Mr Savage’s statement after the screening of a 60 Minutes special in 2015.
William Tyrrell neighbour breaks down at inquest

Mr Savage told the court that the couple told him not to bother checking a particular bush.
But Mr Craddock SC told the court that the couple in question, Peter and Sherelle Crabbe, didn't recall seeing him.
"They don't remember you speaking to them," Mr Craddock said.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/dis...iam-tyrrell-went-missing-20190822-p52jns.html

"I inspected the drains, I didn't get down and search them, but I checked to see if someone was there," Mr Savage said.
"But that's not what you have in your police statement?" Mr Craddock said.
Key witness changes his story at William Tyrrell inquest

In testimony this week, Mr Savage has said he recalled the grandmother saying the William had gone while the foster mother was inside making a cup of tea.
This was inconsistent with Mr Savage’s police statements in which he made no mention of the cup of tea.
William Tyrrell neighbour spent hours on walk-through with police

But in a statement made to police after the little boy disappeared, Mr Savage said that the boy's foster father was "crying and upset".
Questioned about the discrepancy, Mr Savage said he couldn't remember hearing the man and hadn't seen his statement recently.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/dis...iam-tyrrell-went-missing-20190822-p52jns.html

 

[Karinna]

sorry off topic but frustratingly why when i answer posts sometimes they disappear into the original file and have to be expanded to read instead of standing alone with the original post above? is it the difference between quote or reply function?

It could be that? I always click reply and haven't had any problems.