Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #21

[Jan424]

In the old days, psychopathic killers had to settle for having active fantasy lives, saving souvenirs and reliving their crimes, looking at *advertiser censored* magazines or violent images, etc. They disconnect from reality into their own world, where they make the rules and do as they please with no consequences.

Their plan to float down the Nelson River to "hijack" a ship in Hudson Bay and escape to Africa or elsewhere sounds exactly like a plot from a video game.

While video games may not cause people to become psychopathic killers, it does a much more efficient job of organizing and escalating those kinds of pathology and aberrant behavior. K&B were likely influenced and inspired by their gaming addiction to take it to the next level. Living so long in that fantasy world kept them from realizing the harsh consequences, even to the point of being less concerned about their own imminent deaths than about making sure everyone knew they "won" at their chosen game.

Yes absolutely!

 

[Jan424]

I wonder whether toxicology reports will ever be made public; there are drugs that mass shooters and suicide bombers take before they set out towards certain death to make them numb to the prospect before them. Even the Viking berserkers used hallucinogenic drugs before going into battle. That, and a lot of alcohol.

It makes me wonder if this was why they asked where they could buy alcohol; aka liquid courage. It's just such a bizarre concept to think that they calmly and matter of factly planned to die.

But then, I'm not koo koo that way so I can't wrap my head around it.

I’m definitely wondering about that as well. It was one question of mine that I’d hoped we’d have an answer to. It wouldn’t surprise me if there were taking type of drugs or maybe definitely booze at the end.
ETA: then again .. judging by how rag time their video commentary was, its also possible they didn’t even need to get liquored up at all.

 

[Trooper]

SBM
Yes, the saunter and “set” focused expression. I like “sly and shifty” too.

They had managed to present as perfectly normal in Port Alberni, where they were at home, and people were used to them, but when this clip was taken, they were way out of their element. And they were outside of human endeavor , on the outer, outlaws, Cains, and not Abels, they knew this subconsciously, you can see they are struggling to resurrect their old normal persona. They do not want to stick out like a fish in a tree, they want to pass , they want to be at one with the human race , like before, when they did the fooling, but they are not quite in control.

They actually don't know how to present, perhaps the further on they went the more this became pronounced. I bet it did. They lose the capacity to project like they used to do, when back there, at home, people didn't notice.

I think this has something to do with them bunking down in that muddy gully,.. it , like them, like their entire journey, their entire life, was a dead end.

And while in the mood, hehe. Maybe they recalled Charon, and prepared themselves to wait for Charon, the ferryman of Hades, who ferries dead souls across the fast flowing River Styx, and the Acheron, which divided the world of the living from the world of the dead.

They say if you put a coin in the dead persons mouth, that pays the fare to Charon, if not, that soul will wander the shores for a hundred years. …

Some lucky souls were ferried to the underworld, and came back again, but that wasn't guaranteed.

Ok that's enough, now.

 

[Jan424]

We did hear that he was wearing different clothing when the bodies were found:

"Mr. McLeod was bearded, dressed in a camouflage top and black rain pants, Mr. Beardy recalls."​

quote from Globe & Mail article at How the RCMP found Canada’s most wanted fugitives with a raven, a Cree trapper and luck
.

SBM
It’s even possible his camouflage top was actually a buttoned up jacket (like Bryer) and he had his favorite Cathulhu shirt underneath!

 

[CinNC]

Sure makes me wonder why they went down there? Also how did they recover the bodies and investigate the scene? Topside or river side?

They removed the bodies by boat. I don't know if it was at the same time that they discovered them, or if it was in Mr. Beardy's boat.

 

[Pyecraft]

I think in cases like this it would have been nice if Billy Beardy had also been supplied with a bullet proof vest. How sad it would have been if he had been shot while doing the search. MOO

Billy knew they were already dead. No threat.

 

[CinNC]

There's lots of science on this: video games are designed to stimulate the "pleasure center" in the brain. They can become an addiction just like anything else addictive. I know people who spend incredible amounts of money on video games. It's sad, really. To my eye these people are being taken advantage of. Find their weak spot and exploit it. That's what many video games do.

But for the most part, that doesn't necessarily lead to wanting to do it in real life. That's a whole different thing. And when that does happen it becomes a big question on what comes first: the desire to act in these ways, which the video game provides an outlet for? Or the video game, which develops a desire to do these things? That's a contentious issue.

Personally, I find these incredibly violent games just plain unsettling. But same with the TV show "Game of Thrones." I just don't understand how folks can enjoy all that violence.

Agreed. I've never watched GOT, never sat through a modern shoot 'em up movie, and have never played a "violent" video game. Not because I'm an old fogey or don't have the means but because it holds zero appeal to me. I don't know how or why people find it "entertaining".

 

[Pyecraft]

In that 4th picture in the above group (shorelinefinale), showing the spot where the bodies were found. . . how interesting that the natural landscape of trees and brush leading down to the river form the image of an ARROW. Doesn't mean anything, really, but our minds are expert at finding and recognizing patterns, and it sure jumped out at me! MOO. Maybe there are many visually similar spots along the river, or maybe that also stood out to Billy Beardy, and helped him to remember the spot on the shore they were looking for. IMO

And such a great place to hide from those pesky overhead heat-seeking aircraft.

 

[Jan424]

Prof Dyck was approximately 5'8" compared to Kam's 6'4" and a much heavier-built man. I don't think Kam could wear his rain pants even if he wanted to. MOO

I was thinking the same thing... it wouldn’t surprise me if Kam owned a pair of rain pants. He lived on the lake and we heard he camped out.

 

[Kubirai]

Maybe now that the detail of this gun is public it will prompt someone to realize theirs is missing. Maybe someone who wouldn’t have realized a connection,
like a nearby neighbour.

Hopefully some of these details in the report can generate a few more leads and tie up loose ends.

I have been investigating the old SKS and 1975 vintage ammo box, found at the burnt camper. The 100+ old bullets marked "101 75" obviously came from that ammo box.

I feel that RCMP should pursue this matter, because of the possibility that some veteran from Russia/Ukraine may have owned it, and he or his family gave it to BS. BS convinced KM to buy a new Russian SKS, perhaps for symbolic reason.

SKS bullets are loaded into clips, 10 at a time, and pushed in from the top. The old gun may have jammed after firing one whole clip at Lucas/Chynna. The unfired bullets may have been from reloading attempt.

For Leonard Dyck, KM may have used his new SKS, and fired only one bullet at close range, and it didn't exit. The shell was buried by the tire. That's why LE didn't consider gunshot initially.

 

[NJSleuth91]

I don't want to go on about psychopath stuff but thought to note...

Not all psychopaths are serial killers or even killers. Many are CEOs of corporations and/or high functioning people in society who never kill in their life! Makes one wonder who their friends and coworkers are lol... Not funny really but a tad freaky.

Yup, most sociopaths and psychopaths aren't actually dangerous killers, and psychopathic traits can actually be helpful in certain careers.

Not all psychopaths are criminals – some psychopathic traits are actually linked to success

Yes and that's where it gets interesting in terms of behavioral analysis. Because after an extensive police investigation into their backgrounds, Kam and Bryer were found to not have had any history of violent or criminal actions before this. Of course it's possible they had previous violent or criminal actions that they got away with, but given how completely sloppy they were in everything they did, I would be surprised to learn that they actually ever got away with anything. There didn't seem to be a pattern of escalating actions prior to this. As far as we know, they were more or less "pro-social" for 19 years. Some confluence of factors caused a sudden, abrupt change into brutal violence.

So that raises the question of: what went wrong? What factors cause someone to go from pro-social to antisocial? What are the warning signs of that happening? And what interventions can be used to make sure that someone stays on a pro-social path?

I've read up a lot on that kind of thing in the past two months, and it seems that researchers are coming up with some interesting theories and interventions, some of which have promising results.

And I have to say I now feel vindicated vs those who have been claiming they were just a couple of basically nice boys who made a few mistakes. Sorry, I just had to say that because I found those ongoing claims to be so incredibly frustrating.

SBM

Well I think the main thing that threw people off in this case was that the killings stopped. In the majority of killing sprees, that doesn't happen. The killers continue to commit murders at a fairly consistent rate and even escalate, until they die or are captured. It's actually very unusual that they stopped at two murder scenes.

They were driving on remote roads for days after that...it seems difficult to believe they couldn't have found additional victims. But the speed at which they crossed the country indicated they probably weren't even looking for victims at that point. Also, their murders were committed at night, but after they escaped it seemed like all of the sightings of them were during the day. So it would be reasonable for anyone to assume that they were in "escape mode" at that point.

I don't think we will ever know for sure whether they actually intended to go back and kill more people, or were already in "suicide mode" and they just said that to be dramatic and shocking for more notoriety. And if so, whether going back to kill more people was their plan all along, or if they were done with killing initially and changed their minds. As people have noted, they probably actually weren't physically trapped by the terrain and could have gone back if they wanted to.

Another thing that threw people off was that Professor Dyck's murder was charged as second-degree. Now that we know more of the details, it seems baffling to me that it was ever charged that way.

And another thing that indicated it wasn't planned, was their lack of social media presence. Now that we know there was an element of notoriety, it seems even weirder that they didn't have much of an online presence at all, let alone any "Easter eggs" indicating what they were going to do. To me that indicates how abrupt this whole thing was.

It wasn't just people on here that were thrown off, though. Even this criminology professor was interviewed for an article during the manhunt, and he said he thought Lucas and Chynna's murders were a robbery gone wrong, and then Professor Dyck was killed to steal his car and escape. And the main reason why he thought this was because there was no violence after the 19th.

Were B.C. killings planned in advance? Criminologist has doubts

I also remember reading somewhere that even Lucas' dad -- a top police officer -- thought it was a robbery gone wrong at first.

So that's kind of how I formed my initial opinion. Especially because it seemed that most people who were commenting on this case who had backgrounds in criminology, or experience working with young offenders, had the same kind of idea about this case as that article I posted above.

It was only after the detail about multiple videos came out that I was immediately like "Basement Tapes!" and after that I started thinking more and more that it was planned. Plus I have this whole theory of what factors pushed them from non-violence into violence, and I realized my theory wouldn't really work that well unless it was planned.

It's absolutely clear to me that Bryer was a complete lunatic and the ideological leader. Kam may have been the logistical leader, who decided what they were going to do next, but it was Bryer who had the deviant fantasies and somehow got Kam on board.

The one thing that puzzles me is how Bryer was able to convince Kam to commit suicide. He must have had a very persuasive argument, because I doubt Kam was suicidal.

I disagree. I think they were both equally into this thing. I think Kam was better at hiding his weird beliefs and fantasies from people he knew. But I think both of them had similar thought processes, and 100% wholeheartedly believed they were in some kind of militia of two against the world.

And I think both of them were suicidal, probably for years leading up to this, and this was always intended as a suicide mission -- basically "see how far we can get and then end it." The suicides actually seem like THE most planned part of the entire thing, with all these ritualistic actions they took to prepare, and the plan of Kam shooting Bryer (I imagine that was a fantasy Bryer had for a long time, of Kam being the one to kill him, and that just shows how codependent they were.)

Also notice, the spot where they killed themselves. I can't for the life of me believe they were ever trapped there or couldn't get back up the slope. The bottom of those cliff faces, absolutely, they would have been trapped. But those toppled trees falling down into the river where the bank collapsed would have made for fairly easy climbing back up to the woods. They chose this spot when they were ready.

SBM -- agreed. I doubt they actually intended to go back and kill more people for that reason. I think they probably just said that to be dramatic and shocking and to express anger. Because a) it doesn't seem like they made much of an effort to try to go back, b) they would have been delusional if they actually thought it was feasible to go back and do that, and c) I think they had a very, very specific vision of how they wanted their suicides to play out, and I don't think they would have risked not having that come to fruition.

And when that does happen it becomes a big question on what comes first: the desire to act in these ways, which the video game provides an outlet for? Or the video game, which develops a desire to do these things? That's a contentious issue.

Personally, I find these incredibly violent games just plain unsettling. But same with the TV show "Game of Thrones." I just don't understand how folks can enjoy all that violence.

SBM

I would love to see more research done on this topic. And agreed on Game of Thrones.

 

[KR72]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/northern-manitoba-reaction-rcmp-report-1.5301874

'Some of us could have died': Unease remains in northern Manitoba following RCMP report on B.C. suspects

 

[NJSleuth91]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/northern-manitoba-reaction-rcmp-report-1.5301874

It really upset me to read that the police didn't give Billy Beardy a bulletproof vest while he was out there!

Also, he's totally a hero and should be honored as such.

 

[Pyecraft]

Thanks - Edited my post with link to National Post where it was reported per AS that KM shot BS in the head. -- Take note the RCMP declined to confirm this to the NP.

Surely, this can only be a best guess as to who shot who first? Either gun with either bullets could have been used by either suspect. Sure its likely Kam put the weasel out of his misery - he could have been ready to surrender or begin talking of politics - but with rcmp unwilling to confirm BS being shot in the head, there is more than one way these 'suicides' could have gone.

Then, there's that still photo from their cellphone which rcmp said showed Kam only from the waist up. What a strange, superfluous description to add to an ordinary photo. But, wasn't Kam found leaning up against a tree? Maybe dead?

 

[Kubirai]

On Monday, July 15, 2019, at approximately 7:19 a.m., the Fort Nelson RCMP responded to a report of two deceased persons near Highway 97, south of the Liard River Hot Springs in British Columbia.

On July 19, 2019 at approximately 7:19 a.m., the Dease Lake RCMP responded to a vehicle fire on Highway 37.
RCMP in British Columbia - Overview of Fort Nelson and Dease Lake Homicide Investigation

Witnesses saw those sites after sunrise, and called nearest RCMP. The officers followed some protocol to get ready, and then headed out.

That's probably why those times lined up. Or someone used copy and paste of that standard line, and forgot to change the time. But even then, it would be within 7AM to 7:30AM.

 

[Solaris420]

I thought the same thing about climbing back up! I have a mild disability and I thought, "heck, even I could climb back up using the trees and brush!".

I had a similar thought. I didnt understand why they thought they were trapped. If they got there, why couldn't they turn around and go back out the same way?

From the way Hackett was talking in the report, it sounded like one of them may have injured themselves coming down the bank. Or they could have just decided that was the place they wanted to end it.

For Leonard Dyck, KM may have used his new SKS, and fired only one bullet at close range, and it didn't exit. The shell was buried by the tire. That's why LE didn't consider gunshot initially.

Leonard was covered in bruises and burns, they originally thought he died from blunt force trauma before a coroner moved the body and they found a single entry and exit wound and a single bullet buried nearby.

I agree that finding where the ammo and the second firearm came from is very important, specifically the ammo. I cannot wrap my head around how they managed to get the amount of rounds they did. From what I have read it sounds like they got the ammo before departing, and bought the 20 rounds from the hunting store in case the others did not work (they were manufactured in 1975).

 

[1987]

I have been investigating the old SKS and 1975 vintage ammo box, found at the burnt camper. The 100+ old bullets marked "101 75" obviously came from that ammo box.

I feel that RCMP should pursue this matter, because of the possibility that some veteran from Russia/Ukraine may have owned it, and he or his family gave it to BS. BS convinced KM to buy a new Russian SKS, perhaps for symbolic reason.

SKS bullets are loaded into clips, 10 at a time, and pushed in from the top. The old gun may have jammed after firing one whole clip at Lucas/Chynna. The unfired bullets may have been from reloading attempt.

For Leonard Dyck, KM may have used his new SKS, and fired only one bullet at close range, and it didn't exit. The shell was buried by the tire. That's why LE didn't consider gunshot initially.

head stamp codes index
Headstamp Codes - International Ammunition Association

 

[CanadianSleuther]

I think the last piece of the puzzle is the final toxicity report.

 

[1987]

I have been investigating the old SKS and 1975 vintage ammo box, found at the burnt camper. The 100+ old bullets marked "101 75" obviously came from that ammo box.

I feel that RCMP should pursue this matter, because of the possibility that some veteran from Russia/Ukraine may have owned it, and he or his family gave it to BS. BS convinced KM to buy a new Russian SKS, perhaps for symbolic reason.

SKS bullets are loaded into clips, 10 at a time, and pushed in from the top. The old gun may have jammed after firing one whole clip at Lucas/Chynna. The unfired bullets may have been from reloading attempt.

For Leonard Dyck, KM may have used his new SKS, and fired only one bullet at close range, and it didn't exit. The shell was buried by the tire. That's why LE didn't consider gunshot initially.

I don't know if this is allowed but video showing operation of older sks and how unspent rounds could end up on ground.

 

[cartman]

Witnesses saw those sites after sunrise, and called nearest RCMP. The officers followed some protocol to get ready, and then headed out.

That's probably why those times lined up. Or someone used copy and paste of that standard line, and forgot to change the time. But even then, it would be within 7AM to 7:30AM.

Pretty sure in the press conference Hackett said the call about Lucas and Chynna came in at 7:23am. So that’s probably just a typo in the report.