GUILTY TX - Former Dallas Police Officer Amber Guyger, indicted for Murder of Botham Shem Jean #6

[Betty P]

No it wouldn’t be the same. If an officer stopped at a neighbors house he would have no idea who the neighbor might have invited in, what guests or relatives might be there, or even a repairman. Officer Amber knew damn well that there should be no one in her apartment because it was hers.

But it wasn't her apartment. It was the "intruder's" apartment. I know its silly to try to apply logic to these things. I lived in Texas for several years and there's a reason I don't live there anymore. It's just a different culture.

 

[grammieto5]

dog was at her moms , because she was expecting maintenance to be IN HER APARTMENT ! chew on that for a second

Wait a minute, she thinks it's her apartment and she is expecting maintenance to be there, so she shoots the person who is in "her" apartment? Just something else that doesn't make sense coming from her. So if she were entering her apartment and maintenance were there it could have been a different innocent person being shot.

 

[MTW2011]

CourtTV guest presenting the scenario in an interesting way....if we take out the last action, that she shot an unarmed innocent man, and just take all her actions going to the wrong parking level, going to the wrong door, not seeing the apartment numbers or the different doormat, would we still say she was unreasonable in believing that she was going to her apartment?

 

[Blondiexoxo]

IMO castle doctrine should not apply because she should have turned the light on to check where she was and who she was shooting. You don’t just walk into ‘your’ home and start firing bullets, surely the law requires some clarification before you use deadly force. The thing is, AG did NOTHING to ascertain whether she was in her own apartment or not before she shot Botham. I don’t think they will get a murder conviction but manslaughter or definitely criminally negligent homicide it’s never ok to take an innocent persons life, someone who was enjoying life relaxing with a smoke and some ice cream watching his tv that AG somehow missed even though it would have been a source of light. Yet she could see botham to shoot and kill him. JMO

 

[gitana1]

This is way beyond negligent homicide. Perhaps, if she was cleaning her service weapon and it accidently fired, the bullet going through her ceiling, striking and killing Jean, then negligent homicide may apply, but not this.

That's pretty much exactly what the state said in closing.

But the jury instructions did not allow for negligent homicide.

BTW, I am listening to the instructions and I'm scared. She could get off. The language of the Castle Doctrine is that it is presumed that a person constitutes a threat if the shooter believed or had reason to believe that the decedent unlawfully entered their home.

 

[wary]

I’m applying the castle doctrine as if it were her home. I’m taking out the “mistake” entirely and saying even if it were her home she can’t claim self-defense. I believe that was the logical conclusion to Hermus’ rebuttal. Even if it were her apartment and he was an intruder, she was not in a defensive position until she chose to pursue. And that is unreasonable. A reasonable person would pause, step back, call the police. You can’t decide that a burglar deserves the death penalty and act as judge and executioner. We don’t give the death penalty to burglars.

You can’t be the aggressor and claim self-defense.

Right. My understanding of the principle behind the Castle doctrine is that the law shouldn’t demand that you flee the shelter of your own home when someone breaks in. But if you’re outside your home, and safe, deliberately putting yourself in danger is not reasonable.

 

[wyome]

BBM: I'm chewing ... and I want more to chew on !

JMO but there is something - not sure what - that is just not adding up about AG.

MOO

She is flawed for sure, and now very damaged due to her own recklessness.

Did she have family, officers, friends or anyone in court supporting her?

 

[wyome]

That's pretty much exactly what the state said in closing.

But the jury instructions did not allow for negligent homicide.

BTW, I am listening to the instructions and I'm scared. She could get off. The language of the Castle Doctrine is that it is presumed that a person constitutes a threat if the shooter believed or had reason to believe that the decedent unlawfully entered their home.

And this is the way I understand it...if she truly believed she entered her apartment and she encountered an "intruder", she would be reasonable to assume the intruder/burglar would be armed.

 

[bwt42]

She lived alone.

I was commenting on the posters hypothetical, not AG

 

[UKslueth2018]

I wonder how the deliberations are going and if they have any strong opinions yet...

 

[Betty P]

Right. My understanding of the principle behind the Castle doctrine is that the law shouldn’t demand that you flee the shelter of your own home when someone breaks in. But if you’re outside your home, and safe, deliberately putting yourself in danger is not reasonable.

From what I'm reading, Texas removed the "duty to retreat" provision from their law. That's scary.

Texplainer: When Can Texans Use Deadly Force in Self-Defense?

I'm not happy that the state where I live now has a Castle Doctine law, but at least it has the "duty to retreat" provision. Small comfort, though, if you're dead in your own home or car thanks to a trigger happy nut.

I'll need to update my list of states where I no longer visit or vacation.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

I think she was hoping they’d find a gun in the victims apartment ‘see he’s smoking pot and had a gun’ . That way she’d feel more ‘justified’.
I also think that the waft of marijuana would have hit her in the face as she opened the door and she would have immediately known she was not ‘home’.
MOO

 

[bwt42]

Wouldn't it be more like a civilian coming home, stopping at their neighbor's house, seeing a silhouette inside and going inside to kill the person without first checking their identity?

Nope

 

[UKslueth2018]

I think she was hoping they’d find a gun in the victims apartment ‘see he’s smoking pot and had a gun’ . That way she’d feel more ‘justified’.
I also think that the waft of marijuana would have hit her in the face as she opened the door and she would have immediately known she was not ‘home’.
MOO

It's very distinctive. Unless she herself was a smoker...

 

[grammieto5]

That's pretty much exactly what the state said in closing.

But the jury instructions did not allow for negligent homicide.

BTW, I am listening to the instructions and I'm scared. She could get off. The language of the Castle Doctrine is that it is presumed that a person constitutes a threat if the shooter believed or had reason to believe that the decedent unlawfully entered their home.

But what would her reason be to believe that? Would it be because she thought it was her apartment?

 

[sloane7777]

That's good information. (Can you link it?) And scary. So the homeowner got off after forcing the teen intrude to kneel and shooting them from behind? That's an execution.

I just hope the jury feels as strongly about the right of an innocent man not to b executed in his home by the actual intruder.

ill be surprised if they do , my fingers are crossed!

 

[YESorNO]

Amber Guyger Trial Prosecution Closing Argument

Sep 30, 2019

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Amber Guyger Trial Defense Closing Argument

Sep 30, 2019

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Amber Guyger Trial Prosecution Rebuttal Closing Argument

Sep 30, 2019

 

[gitana1]

dog was at her moms , because she was expecting maintenance to be IN HER APARTMENT ! chew on that for a second

And yet some believe it is a right and reasonable of a person to, upon seeing a silhouette of someone in their house, purposefully enter and shoot them dead. Regardless if the maintenance man was expected that day.

Or regardless of the possibility that it could be a family member or friend who unexpectedly came there and found the door open or had a spare key the homeowner forgot about. And now they're dead because we have too many wanna' be cowboys in this country.

Some people really should not be allowed to carry guns.

 

[bwt42]

dbm

 

[sloane7777]

Wait a minute, she thinks it's her apartment and she is expecting maintenance to be there, so she shoots the person who is in "her" apartment? Just something else that doesn't make sense coming from her. So if she were entering her apartment and maintenance were there it could have been a different innocent person being shot.

YEP!!!!