Germany Germany - Katrice Lee, 2, Schloss Neuhaus, Paderborn, 28 Nov 1981

[jaejae]

Here is a report from the Sun about the case in relation to another high profile case involving a child that disappeared:

Ben Needham mum offers prayers to Katrice Lee's parents after arrest

Here another report from the Sun which again shows the agony the parents of child victims go through. In cases like the Maura Murray case some people appear to have little sympathy for Fred Murray. I have a lot of sympathy for him because Maura was still his little girl at the ripe old age of twenty one when she disappeared. Many of us would take two or three crime victims on these boards to catch up with us in terms of age. Of course the disappearance of a very young child like this is the worst thing because they have not entered the adult world and should have the right to a childhood.

Mum's 'bloodcurdling' scream after toddler Katrice Lee vanished in 30 seconds

 

[Officer Dibble]

An Army spokesman refused to give the gender or age of the arrested person, nor what they had been arrested on suspicion of.

Arrest is made over the disappearance of British toddler Katrice Lee | Daily Mail Online

BBM - Is the fact they refer to gender significant? Or is this standard procedure? I know people generalise and often assume a man is guilty in such cases. Could it be a woman they have arrested?
EDIT: Just read the article refers to a HE being arrested.

 

[Mrs Marple]

BBM - Is the fact they refer to gender significant? Or is this standard procedure? I know people generalise and often assume a man is guilty in such cases. Could it be a woman they have arrested?
EDIT: Just read the article refers to a HE being arrested.

Army closing ranks?

 

[JediJim]

A really sad case that I didn’t find out about until I saw Crimewatch on the BBC about 5?years ago. How can a child just vanish in a shop? No evidence or sign of anything. Her mum left her at the till with her aunt whilst she went back for something. Little Katrice wandered off towards her mother then vanished. So strange.

 

[JediJim]

Is it more likely she was abducted or wandered off on her own? If she was abducted she may not even be aware of who she is.. your thoughts anyone...??

 

[Mrs Marple]

Is it more likely she was abducted or wandered off on her own? If she was abducted she may not even be aware of who she is.. your thoughts anyone...??

Anyone's guess due to the absence of any evidence. However l think this is nefarious based on the fact she was alone for a few seconds then could not be found. How far could a two year old have got? Someone would have noticed her. She most likely was unsteady on her feet at that age, l think it unlikely she could have got far without anyone seeing her.

 

[Elainera]

Does/did this store have walk in freezers? Maybe she stumbled into one, was locked in, and later someone found her but disposed of her body secretly. Just an idea as to why she vanished so quickly and silently. Maybe they didn't look into freezers in the initial search. jmo

 

[Kitkat28]

Has anyone ever managed to find a picture of the front entrance of the shop itself? It’s so hard to visualise the exact scenario without being able to see it, and as the building itself hasn’t been a NAAFI for many years, google images isn’t very forthcoming.

Most “big” NAAFIs I’ve been in were a similar size and layout to a small Lidl or Aldi, with 4 or 5 checkouts at the front and then aisles leading towards the back of the shop. Katrice’s mum and aunty were queuing at the checkout (?) her mum remembered she forgot something so went to fetch it, leaving K with her aunty. K followed her mum and disappeared. I’d like to see the interior of the shop to see how all this transpired without anyone noticing anything out of the ordinary. It just doesn’t compute in my head.

 

[JediJim]

From what I remember the Naafi I used in Germany was open to Military families and workers only. So civilians couldn’t just go into it. The one I went to was a modern (ish)
block with a car park around it. It wasn’t within a secure base though.Generally,
Germany was safe for families , although I was there many years after this.
I gather this was an older Naafi and not secure. I have been to Paderborn for training, don’t think I ever went to this particular one to visualise it.

 

[CokeAndChips]

Has anyone ever managed to find a picture of the front entrance of the shop itself? It’s so hard to visualise the exact scenario without being able to see it, and as the building itself hasn’t been a NAAFI for many years, google images isn’t very forthcoming.

Most “big” NAAFIs I’ve been in were a similar size and layout to a small Lidl or Aldi, with 4 or 5 checkouts at the front and then aisles leading towards the back of the shop. Katrice’s mum and aunty were queuing at the checkout (?) her mum remembered she forgot something so went to fetch it, leaving K with her aunty. K followed her mum and disappeared. I’d like to see the interior of the shop to see how all this transpired without anyone noticing anything out of the ordinary. It just doesn’t compute in my head.

The quality isn’t great, but I believe this is the shop front. Taken from a BBC video

 

[JediJim]

Has anyone ever managed to find a picture of the front entrance of the shop itself? It’s so hard to visualise the exact scenario without being able to see it, and as the building itself hasn’t been a NAAFI for many years, google images isn’t very forthcoming.

Most “big” NAAFIs I’ve been in were a similar size and layout to a small Lidl or Aldi, with 4 or 5 checkouts at the front and then aisles leading towards the back of the shop. Katrice’s mum and aunty were queuing at the checkout (?) her mum remembered she forgot something so went to fetch it, leaving K with her aunty. K followed her mum and disappeared. I’d like to see the interior of the shop to see how all this transpired without anyone noticing anything out of the ordinary. It just doesn’t compute in my head.

It doesn’t make sense to me either the whole story. I guess a busy shop, something can happen so quickly, no one would notice if a child was picked up by a stranger ( assuming that happened). The case throws more questions than answers.

 

[JediJim]

In a busy store, a child could be picked up by a random stranger, it wouldn’t look out the ordinary a child being carried.
Katrice just turned two, one report I read said she only spoke English. Well I doubt at two that she would be able to talk much anyway!
She was born and lived in a British army base in Germany, it may well be that she never even visited the UK ( not really relevant I know).

 

[Mrs Marple]

Reading thr link to the timeline, it does seem bungled by RMP. I guess they would not have been used to this sort of case. However the e fit is troubling. I wonder how much more they know than they are letting on and if someone is being protected.

The other thing l wonder is how truthful is the account of the moment Katrice went missing. I am not doubting the mother's side of it. Just a thought.

And finally presumably the person that took her could speak English clearly in order for Katrice to not kick up a fuss. Or she knew them. Again just speculating.

 

[Kitkat28]

Reading thr link to the timeline, it does seem bungled by RMP. I guess they would not have been used to this sort of case. However the e fit is troubling. I wonder how much more they know than they are letting on and if someone is being protected.

The other thing l wonder is how truthful is the account of the moment Katrice went missing. I am not doubting the mother's side of it. Just a thought.

And finally presumably the person that took her could speak English clearly in order for Katrice to not kick up a fuss. Or she knew them. Again just speculating.

You’ve articulated most of my thoughts.

I’ve always felt the account of what happened was possibly skewed by the total lack of interest from the RMP or the local police. If they’d actually realised the significance of what had happened instead of getting into a p***ing contest I think the outcomes would have been very different.

The speaking English part, I’m not so sure that matters. As I’ve said, I was 4 when we came back to UK and my mother said I was always quite comfortable with Germans speaking German to me, even when I was pre-verbal.

 

[JediJim]

What pains me is seeing the lovely pictures of Katrice and not knowing her fete. I would just like to know if she is ok or not, I’m speaking as a father.
Jeremy Corbyn met Richie Lee a while back at a veterans ceremony, he apparently said he’d do what he can to help the case.
I think going to Interpol would help ( if not already done) and raising the case around as many countries as possible. Admittedly, 38 years is such a long time.

 

[gregjrichards]

“Is this the most shameful missing persons case ever? Katrice Lee vanished on her 2nd birthday in 1981, but the investigation has been a litany of failures including the recent arrest and release of a suspect who could have been quizzed years ago”

Katrice Lee vanished on her 2nd birthday in 1981 but the investigation has been a litany of failures | Daily Mail Online

 

[Ellmau]

The man arrested and released a 74 yo former soldier at the base, whose name came up n a review of the original investigation:

Katrice Lee vanished on her 2nd birthday in 1981 but the investigation has been a litany of failures | Daily Mail Online

 

[BlackCloud]

They're getting nowhere...

 

[CokeAndChips]

There’s a write up about this in the Mail today.

The recently arrested man was a “smartly dressed, bespectacled 74 year old former soldier”. So the individual would have been 36 at the time of the disappearance of Katrice.

Katrice’s father, Richie Lee, expresses doubts about whether this is based on new information or that which has been in the file all along a never acted upon.

Katrice Lee vanished on her 2nd birthday in 1981 but the investigation has been a litany of failures | Daily Mail Online

 

[gregjrichards]

There’s a write up about this in the Mail today.

The recently arrested man was a “smartly dressed, bespectacled 74 year old former soldier”. So the individual would have been 36 at the time of the disappearance of Katrice.

Katrice’s father, Richie Lee, expresses doubts about whether this is based on new information or that which has been in the file all along a never acted upon.

Katrice Lee vanished on her 2nd birthday in 1981 but the investigation has been a litany of failures | Daily Mail Online

My heart breaks for Katrice’s Father I can’t imagine getting a phone call out of the blue to say an arrest after all these years and hoping you will finally discover what happened to your toddler daughter. Only the next day to discover the man arrested has been released without charge. What a nightmare for Katrice’s loved ones life can be so cruel for some people.