Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #23

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Another thing that came up recently. I was explaining this whole story to a friend who had been wondering where I've been the past three months and I shared this article (among several others) with her for supplemental reading. Anyway, scroll down a quarter of the way through the article, remember this bizarre tweet that surfaced on the night of the 29th/30th about Kam and Bryer killing themselves and to call the search off. I keep thinking about this and wonder just how much truth there may have been in that tweet in relation to Kam and Bryer's actual time of death. I know it made it into several media articles but it was mostly ignored because it was unsubstantiated. It could have easily been someone trolling, yet to this day it still has me wondering how strange it was both in terms of timing and the way it's written so matter of fact.

Pork chops and oranges before gruesome bush death
 
Another thing that came up recently. I was explaining this whole story to a friend who had been wondering where I've been the past three months and I shared this article (among several others) with her for supplemental reading. Anyway, scroll down a quarter of the way through the article, remember this bizarre tweet that surfaced on the night of the 29th/30th about Kam and Bryer killing themselves and to call the search off. I keep thinking about this and wonder just how much truth there may have been in that tweet in relation to Kam and Bryer's actual time of death. I know it made it into several media articles but it was mostly ignored because it was unsubstantiated. It could have easily been someone trolling, yet to this day it still has me wondering how strange it was both in terms of timing and the way it's written so matter of fact.

Pork chops and oranges before gruesome bush death

I had the same thoughts. It sounds like somebody heard gunshots. But wasn't this also around the time that RCMP rather bizarrely admitted to communicating using gunshots? And could gunshots be heard from over 8km away?

It's just one of those things we likely will never have answers to, unfortunately. If I had to guess I would say that no, the report was not based on hearing the actual gunshots.
 
Since we had discussed home-made guns in this case, the German synagogue terrorist actually made all his guns from scratch, using metal fixtures from hardware stores. He even made the bullets using concrete nail driving cartridges.

Germans not having easy access to guns and bullets saved a lot of lives that day.
 
Even without knowing the two, if you read back to the early WS threads many here immediately believed the two were the guilty culprits responsible for all three murders as well (although I will admit at the time I was sceptical). This witness who knew the two was simply the first to come forward. I’d be certain there were more.
SBM
Yes, I also thought there had to be more than just this one lone "witness" who put 2&2 together enough to contact the RCMP.
 
SBM
And, that's the problem ... unfortunately, we will never fully know since we haven't see them on the videos. I really don't think they were afraid to die, I think they planned on this all along. Perhaps afraid of actually killing themselves, but not of death itself. I honestly just don't think they cared about living any longer and hadn't for a long time. I too, wish we heard some type of apology or remorse ... but we didn't get that, at least not in the way we had hoped. IMO

I have no idea if they planned to kill and commit suicide before they left (I actually am more on the no side, but I have no reason to, it's just a gut feeling so I might be wrong), but I am interested to have the opinion of people who think they did (not to argue, I'd genuinely like to know :D ). Why do you think they went all the way to Manitoba to kill themselves if suicide was the goal all along.Why the heck did they travel for 3 days to go there (and it seems like they were planning to go there specifically because there was nothing else there?).

It could be

1) They wanted to highjack a boat all along (But I honestly don't believe they were THAT dumb)

2) they wanted to kill more (but they didn't? I don't believe they didn't see one isolated person in three day)

3) they wanted to be chased by the police (but they got in the bush before they were named suspects so they could just have kept on going)

4) They wanted a shootout with the police (but they could have done that. They could have shot Billy Beardy and/or the first cops that arrived there).

I know nobody here knows, and they didn't seem to be the more logical guys, but it totally boggles my mind. I am not saying they were not able to do this or that. It's the logic of these crimes that totally go over my head.

I can't understand a scenario in which they would decide to go on a killing spree and kill themselves (or at least have talked about, one of them did not just bring the subject on the 12th of July and the other one agreed), bring only 2 sad guns (sorry, I don't want to trivialize the murders, but they were not impressive guns for 2 teenagers who decided to be famous and let out their anger at the world), commit 2 murders, go to Whitehorse all chill, come back the and commit 1 murder to steal the car and suddenly run West like they panicked, not kill anyone, go in the bush, get stuck and kill themselves.

It's so random.

Wow I ranted :D. SO sorry about that. My question is, why do you think they went to Manitoba if their goal was to kill people then commit suicide?
 
The gunshot reports that I remember hearing about were in York Landing. I think that is wayyyyy more than 8km away from where the bodies were found.

MOO

Yeah, but what I was saying is given where the bodies were discovered, is it possibly somebody back in "civilization" may have heard the shots? I just checked and the nearest town is about 18 km, so the answer is 'no.' Also, given where they are, on the bottom of a slope, I think that would reduce how far the sound would carry by quite a bit. I think it is highly unlikely that anybody actually heard them shoot themselves.

So the report that they had committed suicide is most likely based on some other rifle shots that were heard.

(And interestingly, it's 9.5 km from where the RAV4 was torched to the spot where they were found. Why were we told 8k?)
 
I'm really wondering what other "unimportant" and "trivial" details weren't disclosed in the report.
I always thought it was weird that their final wishes were just to be cremated. I was like "Really? That's all there is to it?" It seemed like such a random thing to say as one's final wishes, in those circumstances. Especially because chances were they would have to be cremated anyway, given the ambient environmental conditions. Now we find out it was actually "cremate me and throw the ashes in the garbage"...yeah that kind of changes the meaning a whole lot, doesn't it?
SBM
Okay, but isn't it possible the families didn't want the exact details of their final wishes made public? If this were my kid, I'd want as little revealed to the public as possible. Obviously, what Bryer said must have been devastating to his entire family, not just Al. And, I'm going to guess Kam said the same to his family. So, really, maybe the RCMP are trying to spare the families any more pain than the tremendous amount already dumped on them. IMO
 
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I have no idea if they planned to kill and commit suicide before they left (I actually am more on the no side, but I have no reason to, it's just a gut feeling so I might be wrong), but I am interested to have the opinion of people who think they did (not to argue, I'd genuinely like to know :D ). Why do you think they went all the way to Manitoba to kill themselves if suicide was the goal all along.Why the heck did they travel for 3 days to go there (and it seems like they were planning to go there specifically because there was nothing else there?).

It could be

1) They wanted to highjack a boat all along (But I honestly don't believe they were THAT dumb)

2) they wanted to kill more (but they didn't? I don't believe they didn't see one isolated person in three day)

3) they wanted to be chased by the police (but they got in the bush before they were named suspects so they could just have kept on going)

4) They wanted a shootout with the police (but they could have done that. They could have shot Billy Beardy and/or the first cops that arrived there).

I know nobody here knows, and they didn't seem to be the more logical guys, but it totally boggles my mind. I am not saying they were not able to do this or that. It's the logic of these crimes that totally go over my head.

I can't understand a scenario in which they would decide to go on a killing spree and kill themselves (or at least have talked about, one of them did not just bring the subject on the 12th of July and the other one agreed), bring only 2 sad guns (sorry, I don't want to trivialize the murders, but they were not impressive guns for 2 teenagers who decided to be famous and let out their anger at the world), commit 2 murders, go to Whitehorse all chill, come back the and commit 1 murder to steal the car and suddenly run West like they panicked, not kill anyone, go in the bush, get stuck and kill themselves.

It's so random.

Wow I ranted :D. SO sorry about that. My question is, why do you think they went to Manitoba if their goal was to kill people then commit suicide?

I think as long as there was a road ahead of them and no police cars with sirens and flashing red lights behind them they thought they were freeeee and had gotten away with murder. It became a thrill ride across Canada. It was when they reached Northern Manitoba and the end of the road that reality started to close in.

We don’t know when their plan to hijack a boat from Hudson Bay to Europe or Africa came into play but that reminds me of video games. Overcome one obstacle, face another then overcome it by some other means? From everything we know, much of their life’s learning came from playing video games. That’s why I think we give them way too much credit if it’s assumed there was any element of preplanning or logical thinking going on here. Like many teenagers, they live for the moment because their brains have not developed to the point of mature thinking which includes understanding the repercussions of facing consequences.

I believe suicide only came into play when they realized there was no escape and they got trapped along the river, too weak, cold, bug bitten and weary to continue on. Suicide was there way of admitting defeat, rather than allowing an arrest. By showing no remorse in the videos, it was an “up yours” towards not only the victims families but their own family members as well.....due to anger because they were forced to admit defeat. Isn’t that how it goes with war game playing - the objective is to win, not to become a loser.

JMO
 
SBM
Okay, but isn't it possible the families didn't want the exact details of their final wishes made public? If this were my kid, I'd want as little revealed to the public as possible. Obviously, what Bryer said must have been devastating to his entire family, not just Al. And, I'm going to guess Kam said the same to his family. So, really, maybe the RCMP are trying to spare the families any more pain than the tremendous amount already dumped on them. IMO

I don't know what the RCMP's motive was for leaving out such details. Nobody knows.

But the point is there may be a lot of important details that were left out, for whatever reason. In fact I guarantee there are. And in total, they could give a lot more overall context to their mind-state, and lead us to a different analysis of the situation than what the report originally suggested.

The narrative the RCMP advanced was "cold, remorseless, and matter-of-fact." Saying they want their ashes to be thrown in the garbage seems to directly contradict that, IMO. Yes, they didn't directly express remorse, but that statement indicates about as extreme a devaluation of one's self-worth as is possible.

As I said, their final wishes made no sense to me before, and now they make total sense. I always suspected there was more to it than just "we want to be cremated." This one detail seems to more directly support my original conclusions on these guys. It really adds up for me more than it previously did.
 
At the college where I teach, over 50% of the students say they have considered suicide in the past year. About 52%, with about 54% for women and 50% for men. 20-22% have considered suicide in the past month. 2% have attempted suicide in the past month. The degree of "planning" they report (including among those who attempted) ranges from virtually none to extensive planning. But merely thinking about suicide is pretty common in college age people, at least in the US (and the Canadian data are only a little better, from what I can tell).

Feelings of hopelessness, for example, are reported as "occasional" by about 55-60% of the students in college in California. There's some inter-generational research to indicate that this percentage is higher than it was 50 years ago, although it's very hard to know. Certainly, it's higher than it was 25 years ago.

If we look just at students over 24, the rate of thinking about suicide is considerably less.

My view is that if killing oneself comes up frequently or high on the list of "problem solving options," then, when circumstances get dire, that option moves way up the list. Does this mean planning? I don't think so. I think it means "risk." Certainly, people who have never thought about suicide still commit suicide, but it doesn't appear to be as likely.

The helicopter parent phenomena (in all its aspects) has been associated with this increase in suicidality (which is not seen across all the world's cultures and definitely seems to affect young adults who have been protected from adult responsibilities and then are suddenly thrust into assuming such responsibilities, because the suicidality among college students is higher than among non-students who are still living at home). Dorm life, being away from home, attempting to start a new household with a romantic partner all correlate with higher incidence of suicidal thoughts. There also appear to be some bio-markers (in the brain) of those who are more likely to attempt and then to complete suicide (this data is from inpatient psychiatric units).

So, one of the reasons I followed this case as closely as I did is that Kam and Bryer ticked some boxes for suicidality: age, sex, lived at home until very recently, very little work experience, very little experience solving complex life problems and, apparently, the sense of at least one parent that they might go out "in a blaze of glory." Making one's life meaningful, even in death, is a big issue for all of us, but late teens and early 20's does bring it to critical mass (compared to being 12 or 70). Anyway, the demographics of suicide are changing, such that the average age is dropping.

Depression and Suicide Rates Are Rising Sharply in Young Americans, New Report Says

Extensive suicide is when suicidal people take others with them.
 
I have no idea if they planned to kill and commit suicide before they left (I actually am more on the no side, but I have no reason to, it's just a gut feeling so I might be wrong), but I am interested to have the opinion of people who think they did (not to argue, I'd genuinely like to know :D ). Why do you think they went all the way to Manitoba to kill themselves if suicide was the goal all along.Why the heck did they travel for 3 days to go there (and it seems like they were planning to go there specifically because there was nothing else there?).

It could be

1) They wanted to highjack a boat all along (But I honestly don't believe they were THAT dumb)

2) they wanted to kill more (but they didn't? I don't believe they didn't see one isolated person in three day)

3) they wanted to be chased by the police (but they got in the bush before they were named suspects so they could just have kept on going)

4) They wanted a shootout with the police (but they could have done that. They could have shot Billy Beardy and/or the first cops that arrived there).

I know nobody here knows, and they didn't seem to be the more logical guys, but it totally boggles my mind. I am not saying they were not able to do this or that. It's the logic of these crimes that totally go over my head.

I can't understand a scenario in which they would decide to go on a killing spree and kill themselves (or at least have talked about, one of them did not just bring the subject on the 12th of July and the other one agreed), bring only 2 sad guns (sorry, I don't want to trivialize the murders, but they were not impressive guns for 2 teenagers who decided to be famous and let out their anger at the world), commit 2 murders, go to Whitehorse all chill, come back the and commit 1 murder to steal the car and suddenly run West like they panicked, not kill anyone, go in the bush, get stuck and kill themselves.

It's so random.

Wow I ranted :D. SO sorry about that. My question is, why do you think they went to Manitoba if their goal was to kill people then commit suicide?
I'll bite since you quoted my post .... to be perfectly honest, I'm going also by my gut feeling since none of us have certainty about why they did anything. We just know what they did, and I'm sure we all may have different theories of why.
I absolutely believe they went on the road for a thrill kill joy ride .... whether their 2 guns were impressive or not, they did the job K&B intended them to do. Its possible they chose the road they did because Kam was rather familiar with its remoteness, since there seems to be some information he hunted in the Yukon with his father. I had speculated on a thread way back that perhaps they were playing a violent video game in real life with real people. They literally seemed to hunt for victims in the dark of night when there was no one else around and when people were most vulnerable. And yea, I think its possible in the remainder of their travels, once they became wanted fugitives, no other killing opportunity presented itself to their preference. I also believe once the killing started, they just made decisions as they went along. That's likely why they seem all over the place, with no rhyme or reason. Not to mention, these two weren't brilliant criminal masterminds. Regarding the suicide pact .... I had also speculated on a way-back thread that its possible they foolishly believed (early on) they might get away with all of this and escape somewhere. But, they were never going to allow themselves to be captured, they were never going to prison. So I believe they expected they would likely end up dead by their own hand. They were going to end this THEIR way. JMHO, for what its worth.
 
SBM
Yes, I also thought there had to be more than just this one lone "witness" who put 2&2 together enough to contact the RCMP.

In one of the media reports iirc, it claimed B was speculating to a friend about what it’d be like if shooting games were real. That’s a huge red flag IMO. Anyone not only imagining killing real people but talking about it clearly indicates somebody who may be capable of murder.

I bet this sordid sage has become a horrible, life-changing event even to other young people in Port Alberni, those who thought they knew the two even if they acted a little weird but had no idea they were out-rightly crazy enough to cross the line from fantasy to reality.

I can understand why the RCMP isn’t releasing further information about the identity of the first witness who came forward. It can’t have been an easy thing to do, given it contradicted the “good boy” reports that prevailed when the two were first discovered missing. JMO
 
I don't know what the RCMP's motive was for leaving out such details. Nobody knows.

The narrative the RCMP advanced was "cold, remorseless, and matter-of-fact." Saying they want their ashes to be thrown in the garbage seems to directly contradict that, IMO. Yes, they didn't directly express remorse, but that statement indicates about as extreme a devaluation of one's self-worth as is possible.
SBM
I do get what you are saying. What I don’t understand is how it benefits the RCMP by withholding this detail. If they expressed any remorse or explanation, I’m sure they would have included it in the report. Bryer’s statement of wanting his remains tossed in the garbage could simply tell us what we truly have known all along... that he had zero self worth. And I mean zero. Maybe it’s just me, but I’d have been surprised if they included these sorts of details in the report. Of course, I don’t know I’m just speculating like everyone else... MOO!
 
45,161,290,322 people between 14 and 25 in the world. How many are making murderous rampage plans right now because it's the only thing that makes sense to them? How many teenagers right now believe there is no hope? Or believe they are garbage?
 
45,161,290,322 people between 14 and 25 in the world. How many are making murderous rampage plans right now because it's the only thing that makes sense to them? How many teenagers right now believe there is no hope? Or believe they are garbage?


It' s one thing to believe oneself is garbage... K and B were convinced and acted on the conviction that everyone else was garbage first. Those are the ones to worry about, the monumentally self entitled, the deluded by grandeur, the impotent rage filled twerps, the ones with access to weaponry and vehicles and spare money, ( this knocks out about 75% of your total ) the ones with good teeth and good health and a lifetime of 3 meals a day and plenty of time to brood on indulgently about their self perceived resentments... ( this last category knocks out about 80% of the remaining 75%) ..

Of those left, some sort of reality revelation will take place and adjustments to life as it really is will be made, either voluntarily or by hard experience, of those left, some will sink into terminal drug addiction and be a permanent nuisance to their community, some will be picked up ( the lucky ones ) by communities that have universal medical care, and of those left, without access to reliable regular medical attention without the worry of finances due to taxpayers determination, some kind of life may be lived, of a particular nature.

That leaves us with the genuine psychopathic number of people sprinkled throughout darn near every community across the globe. There they are, and sometimes, they Darwin themselves out early, like K and B did, although they leave a trail of devastation and destruction behind them, far outweighing their value to society.
 
I believe their reported remark re, 'throw my remains in the garbage' is a reflection of the way they saw people other than themselves. The disgusting way they left Lucas and Chynna's bodies, and the Professors gives a realistic insight into how they viewed their fellow human beings, as garbage. As disposable. As they viewed themselves, and in one sense, you could say that was one of the very rare correct calls both of them made. They were, in any sense of the word, right where they placed themselves. Outside , to be discarded.

It is difficult to read 'remorse' into the plea to be thrown away as garbage. That requires a suspension of belief that not many are willing to make, an inflation of perspective that doesn't have a lot of foundation to it. Remorse is not an emotion that figures greatly in the life of people like K and B., it is a real handicap and is not something either of them would have, in their lives, understood.
 
I believe their reported remark re, 'throw my remains in the garbage' is a reflection of the way they saw people other than themselves. The disgusting way they left Lucas and Chynna's bodies, and the Professors gives a realistic insight into how they viewed their fellow human beings, as garbage. As disposable. As they viewed themselves, and in one sense, you could say that was one of the very rare correct calls both of them made. They were, in any sense of the word, right where they placed themselves. Outside , to be discarded.

It is difficult to read 'remorse' into the plea to be thrown away as garbage. That requires a suspension of belief that not many are willing to make, an inflation of perspective that doesn't have a lot of foundation to it. Remorse is not an emotion that figures greatly in the life of people like K and B., it is a real handicap and is not something either of them would have, in their lives, understood.
I think it was a beyond-the-grave slap in the face to their parents.
 
It is difficult to read 'remorse' into the plea to be thrown away as garbage. That requires a suspension of belief that not many are willing to make, an inflation of perspective that doesn't have a lot of foundation to it. Remorse is not an emotion that figures greatly in the life of people like K and B., it is a real handicap and is not something either of them would have, in their lives, understood.
SBM
Thank you, @Trooper. As usual, you stated this better than I ever could.
 
At the college where I teach, over 50% of the students say they have considered suicide in the past year. About 52%, with about 54% for women and 50% for men. 20-22% have considered suicide in the past month. 2% have attempted suicide in the past month. The degree of "planning" they report (including among those who attempted) ranges from virtually none to extensive planning. But merely thinking about suicide is pretty common in college age people, at least in the US (and the Canadian data are only a little better, from what I can tell).

Feelings of hopelessness, for example, are reported as "occasional" by about 55-60% of the students in college in California. There's some inter-generational research to indicate that this percentage is higher than it was 50 years ago, although it's very hard to know. Certainly, it's higher than it was 25 years ago.

If we look just at students over 24, the rate of thinking about suicide is considerably less.

My view is that if killing oneself comes up frequently or high on the list of "problem solving options," then, when circumstances get dire, that option moves way up the list. Does this mean planning? I don't think so. I think it means "risk." Certainly, people who have never thought about suicide still commit suicide, but it doesn't appear to be as likely.

The helicopter parent phenomena (in all its aspects) has been associated with this increase in suicidality (which is not seen across all the world's cultures and definitely seems to affect young adults who have been protected from adult responsibilities and then are suddenly thrust into assuming such responsibilities, because the suicidality among college students is higher than among non-students who are still living at home). Dorm life, being away from home, attempting to start a new household with a romantic partner all correlate with higher incidence of suicidal thoughts. There also appear to be some bio-markers (in the brain) of those who are more likely to attempt and then to complete suicide (this data is from inpatient psychiatric units).

So, one of the reasons I followed this case as closely as I did is that Kam and Bryer ticked some boxes for suicidality: age, sex, lived at home until very recently, very little work experience, very little experience solving complex life problems and, apparently, the sense of at least one parent that they might go out "in a blaze of glory." Making one's life meaningful, even in death, is a big issue for all of us, but late teens and early 20's does bring it to critical mass (compared to being 12 or 70). Anyway, the demographics of suicide are changing, such that the average age is dropping.

Depression and Suicide Rates Are Rising Sharply in Young Americans, New Report Says

Extensive suicide is when suicidal people take others with them.

This is a great post. And those rates sound about right. When I was that age, about half my friends were suicidal and hopeless at least on and off. And they were people who, at least externally, had everything going for them...like, living in the NYC area which has a lot more opportunity than most areas...coming from well-off families (I didn't, but most of my friends did)...attending Ivy League or equivalent colleges (my college had a suicide epidemic during the time I attended actually...lots of people jumping off gorges...the school tried to cover it up, too....)

I actually am not sure about helicopter parenting being the cause though. I think it's way more complex and multifactorial than that. For one thing, that doesn't take into account the correlation between coming from an abusive background and having mental illness. That's like the opposite of helicopter parenting in many cases. Research also shows there's a decline in community and an epidemic of loneliness in our society. I also think income inequality and wage stagnation may factor into it somehow, especially coming from an area like Port Alberni. There's a lot for young people today to be hopeless about, as many of us have commented on. And it's very easy for people to fall through the cracks. I can tell you from experience how hard it is to "get help" even if you actually want to.

Perhaps this is the only way they felt that anyone would care about them or listen to them. Making their death meaningful as you said. That doesn't make it right in any way, of course. But it could explain their mindset.

SBM
I do get what you are saying. What I don’t understand is how it benefits the RCMP by withholding this detail.

Neither do I. But, they did. (Assuming the statement made by Bryer's dad is accurate...and of course, assuming it's actually him who's posting.)

Bryer’s statement of wanting his remains tossed in the garbage could simply tell us what we truly have known all along... that he had zero self worth. And I mean zero.

Well, I had that feeling all along, but a lot of people didn't. A lot of people felt quite the opposite actually, that they thought themselves to be superior to others. Which is why it's a very important detail from a psychopathology perspective.

45,161,290,322 people between 14 and 25 in the world. How many are making murderous rampage plans right now because it's the only thing that makes sense to them? How many teenagers right now believe there is no hope? Or believe they are garbage?

For the no hope and believing they are garbage...probably millions. I'm 28 and I hate myself and think I'm garbage! I hate myself slightly less than I did 10 years ago (my relationship with my husband has helped a lot with that), but still.

For the murderous rampage plans...probably thousands. Of course, most of them ultimately won't go through with it. I read something about how researchers interviewed a bunch of kids who planned spree killings and didn't carry them out, and they said in every case, it was because an adult reached out to them and gave them something to hope for. Which is why detection and intervention is so important.

There are several people I know who strongly considered going on a killing spree or committing other acts of senseless violence when they were around that age. And that's just the ones I know about. None of them actually did it, but still, it's not anywhere near as uncommon as people think.
 
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