Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #23

[Trooper]

I have no idea why the persistent continuation of correlating this Canadian event with Columbine even exists..It's been going on since thread one, and is no further ahead in laying out a connection at all. Still, it persists, on and on...

 

[DarkSkink]

I have no idea why the persistent continuation of correlating this Canadian event with Columbine even exists..It's been going on since thread one, and is no further ahead in laying out a connection at all. Still, it persists, on and on...

Because there are some that insist killers kill because they are copying others, and that we all need to be protected from copycats by being kept ignorant of the facts.

And they are okay with that.

If B and K were copycat killers, shouldn't we be made aware of that?

 

[katydid23]

Well, that's your opinion. Some would disagree. The people behind the "No Notoriety" project that was mentioned would probably disagree.

But that's exactly my point...nobody can decide what the line is between what's ok to discuss and what isn't, what leads to notoriety and what doesn't. For example, some people even said the police should not have released Kam and Bryer's cause of death or any information of what was on the videos at all.

The Columbine forum on Reddit is still quite active 20 years later, discussing the facts of the case, much like we are doing here. A couple of years back someone posted on there about how they were about to commit a mass shooting and outdo Eric and Dylan. The mass shooting was averted. There was another forum discussing Columbine where a member actually did commit a mass shooting. The other members did not see it coming. A few of them left in the wake of that occurrence. Is it possible the continued discussion of Columbine on these forums inspired these guys, by continuing to circulate the information? If so, is it possible the same thing could happen here?

If you open the door to the possibility that any publicity is bad, you open the door to the possibility that all publicity is bad. And that, by necessity, forces us all to consider our own role in that publicity.

All true. But I guess I am more of a moderate than an extremist.

I am sure there are some who would say there should be NO info given out and NO discussion on any platforms. But I don't think that is necessary.

I think the biggest issue is when hundreds of images are spread across all the news outlets, tv stations and the internet, and treated as if they were powerful beings. And we have stopped doing that kind of thing as much as possible.

That is problematic that someone on the Columbine forum acted out like that. It does make m e stop and think, and worry.

But there is so much info and books and so many pictures and videos about Columbine already available, so that forum is probably not the biggest problem. JMO

I am not one that says 'any publicity' is bad. I say publicity that makes these killers look cool, or awesome or important is particularly damaging, imo.

Speaking about these 2 dying in the dirt, bitten by bugs and starving, trapped in the outback---not bad info to be made public.

But any videos of them bragging or discussing future kills---CANNOT be released, imo.

 

[MistyWaters]

Because there are some that insist killers kill because they are copying others, and that we all need to be protected from copycats by being kept ignorant of the facts.

And they are okay with that.

If B and K were copycat killers, shouldn't we be made aware of that?

When has it ever been suggested by police that B&K were copycat killers?

 

[Trooper]

Because there are some that insist killers kill because they are copying others, and that we all need to be protected from copycats by being kept ignorant of the facts.

And they are okay with that.

If B and K were copycat killers, shouldn't we be made aware of that?

what is the co -relation of K and B and the Columbine shooters? … as distinct from any other school shooter? or shooters? anywhere in the world? keeping in mind that K and B were no where near what could be called a school shooter.

 

[DarkSkink]

When has it ever been suggested B&K were copycat killers?

Ahhhhhh... Websleuths. Where complex topics are dissected into such minuscule out of context snippets, that the entire reason for the discussion is completely lost.

The entire discussion is about whether killings happen based on copying others, or not.

If you're saying K and B aren't copycat killers, then should the police withhold evidence from the public because they fear copycats?

 

[katydid23]

I have no idea why the persistent continuation of correlating this Canadian event with Columbine even exists..It's been going on since thread one, and is no further ahead in laying out a connection at all. Still, it persists, on and on...

The reason I am talking about it is because I do think young people tend to romanticise other young people who rebel and go rogue and become outlaws.

And the question arose, should RCMP release videos and info about these 2 young men ?

The reason I discuss Columbine is because it is an EXAMPLE of a previous case where the videos and pictures were released, and it caused a horrible social phenomenon that is still harmful.

The connection is there, in my opinion. Two tall, cool handsome young men, going rogue, staying best friends until the end, killing innocents then taking their own lives on the way out.

I see a potent similarity. JMO

 

[DarkSkink]

what is the co -relation of K and B and the Columbine shooters? … as distinct from any other school shooter? or shooters? anywhere in the world? keeping in mind that K and B were no where near what could be called a school shooter.

I'm beginning to miss Otto.

 

[Trooper]

Because there are some that insist killers kill because they are copying others, and that we all need to be protected from copycats by being kept ignorant of the facts.

And they are okay with that.

If B and K were copycat killers, shouldn't we be made aware of that?

nothing K and B stated, to anyone else, or on their video clip as their rather pretentious 'last will and testament' revealed, did they claim their were copying anyone else.

So whoever is insisting they copied anyone else is making stuff up, right? to fit some personal narrative.

And how does one expect to be protected from copy cat killers?

And who is keeping whom in an ignorant state?

 

[DarkSkink]

The reason I am talking about it is because I do think young people tend to romanticise other young people who rebel and go rogue and become outlaws.

And the question arose, should RCMP release videos and info about these 2 young men ?

The reason I discuss Columbine is because it is an EXAMPLE of a previous case where the videos and pictures were released, and it caused a horrible social phenomenon that is still harmful.

The connection is there, in my opinion. Two tall, cool handsome young men, going rogue, staying best friends until the end, killing innocents then taking their own lives on the way out.

I see a potent similarity. JMO

Thank you! I may disagree with you, but that was well reasoned and articulated.

 

[NJSleuth91]

It was just an example about how discussion of the facts of a case on true-crime forums may, in fact, inspire copycat killings by keeping the case "alive," and arguably has in the past. Questioning our own role in this whole "spree killer-industrial complex."

Columbine keeps coming up because a) it's the most famous teen killing spree to this day, and has by far inspired the most copycat killings which is the current topic of discussion, and b) there are obvious parallels with this case. There isn't any case like this one, but if I had to choose one that was most similar, I'd choose Columbine:

1) Killing spree committed by two long-term best friends around age 18, who had an unhealthily codependent friendship

2) One of the friends was known to make violent statements to people, had an interest in Nazis and Hitler, and expressed a desire to join the army

3) Killers used a previously more or less unprecedented killing paradigm (Columbine was a failed bombing, not just a shooting)

4) Notoriety and inspiring copycats was part of the motive (as stated in the report by police)

5) Killers made a series of bizarre videos in which they seemed to see themselves as an "army of two" against the entire world and made grandiose statements about their plans. These videos were never released to the public.

6) Ended in joint suicide pact

7) The role of violent video games in inspiring the shooting was debated in the media (Columbine shooters said they were inspired by the game Doom)

I don't see how they're so different.

 

[katydid23]

Back to the original discussion then, do the RCMP seriously think the Rolling Stone is going to do a piece on B and K?

If they released the videos, there would be a lot of published stories about these two. Newseek, People, RollingStone, etc etc.

 

[DarkSkink]

nothing K and B stated, to anyone else, or on their video clip as their rather pretentious 'last will and testament' revealed, did they claim their were copying anyone else.

So whoever is insisting they copied anyone else is making stuff up, right? to fit some personal narrative.

And how does one expect to be protected from copy cat killers?

And who is keeping whom in an ignorant state?

All of that is covered and answered in the last 24 hours of this thread.

 

[MistyWaters]

I have no idea why the persistent continuation of correlating this Canadian event with Columbine even exists..It's been going on since thread one, and is no further ahead in laying out a connection at all. Still, it persists, on and on...

I have no idea either. The connection has never been mentioned by the media. Maybe somebody might clarify what’s the connection to a high school massacre that occurred 20 years ago in the US - prior to these two being born?

 

[DarkSkink]

If they released the videos, there would be a lot of published stories about these two. Newseek, People, RollingStone, etc etc.

Fair point. But at the same time, society as a whole may learn something about the psychology of what goes into triggering things like what they did.

Keeping people ignorant isn't the same as keeping people safe.

 

[NJSleuth91]

That is problematic that someone on the Columbine forum acted out like that. It does make m e stop and think, and worry.

And it should! Especially because it was two people, not one. If we're going to agree with and support the "No Notoriety" campaign, the best thing we can do is stop discussing this case altogether, IMO.

But any videos of them bragging or discussing future kills---CANNOT be released, imo.

But the police already told us they bragged and discussed future kills. Isn't that enough to inspire people? So again...where do we draw the line? We don't know what level of information is going to inspire someone. Supposedly there was a potential copycat crime in New Zealand already.

The reason I discuss Columbine is because it is an EXAMPLE of a previous case where the videos and pictures were released, and it caused a horrible social phenomenon that is still harmful.

The Basement Tapes were never released, and have been destroyed according to the FBI (although many people think copies still exist). Incomplete transcripts were released but I think it wasn't until many years later. The full 11,000 pages of investigative documents were also released but again, I think that was only a few years ago.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Maybe somebody might clarify what’s the connection to a high school massacre that occurred 20 years ago in the US - prior to these two being born?

I just did.

 

[Trooper]

It was just an example about how discussion of the facts of a case on true-crime forums may, in fact, inspire copycat killings by keeping the case "alive," and arguably has in the past. Questioning our own role in this whole "spree killer-industrial complex."

Columbine keeps coming up because a) it's the most famous teen killing spree to this day, and has by far inspired the most copycat killings which is the current topic of discussion, and b) there are obvious parallels with this case. There isn't any case like this one, but if I had to choose one that was most similar, I'd choose Columbine:

1) Killing spree committed by two long-term best friends around age 18, who had an unhealthily codependent friendship

2) One of the friends was known to make violent statements to people, had an interest in Nazis and Hitler, and expressed a desire to join the army

3) Killers used a previously more or less unprecedented killing paradigm (Columbine was a failed bombing, not just a shooting)

4) Notoriety and inspiring copycats was part of the motive (as stated in the report by police)

5) Killers made a series of bizarre videos in which they seemed to see themselves as an "army of two" against the entire world and made grandiose statements about their plans. These videos were never released to the public.

6) Ended in joint suicide pact

7) The role of violent video games in inspiring the shooting was debated in the media (Columbine shooters said they were inspired by the game Doom)

I don't see how they're so different.

I see the dis-similarities with more focus.

(1) they didn't shoot up their school.

(2) they never mentioned any enemies they had at school as a motivation.

(3) they were absolutely silent as to their motivation up to the end.

(4) unlike Eric and Dylan, who were born blabbermouths, K and B maintained a curtain around themselves that few appeared to have pierced.

(5).. Eric and Dylan had a fixed target. They passed other people to get to the agreed upon target ( the other kids at school )

(6) K and B had unfixed targets, honing in on those who inadvertently crossed their path.

(7). the big one, in my book. E and D were focused on people they knew, members of their own community, causing the maximum spread of revenge right across the board where they lived and died.

(8). K and B chose to skitter on out north, far away from Port Alberni, out among strangers , far away from people they knew, not wanting to conduct their program among the community they knew.

(9). E and D got it all over with quickly, in comparison to K and B , who took their sweet time about it, and that means , to me, they had a certain set of circumstances for killing that had to be met for them to launch into the murdering. K and B strung it out for days. That had to be significant to them.

(10) their final words of K and B , if such it can be called , was brief, minus all the rantings and ravings of racist, ageist, genderist bollocking that E and D spend an inordinate amount of time on, relative to the crime they were about to commit.

(11)… in the middle of killing, in fact, between the killings of Mr Fowler and Miss Deese, both K and B rang their parents and put on a performance that, as usual , went right over the heads of both fathers. It was so good, giving no hint to the parents that they were conversing with murderers , and achieving a few more days of non scrutiny. E and D didn't do this, this last contact with reality. I regard that as deeply significant, also.

and so much more.

 

[NJSleuth91]

BTW this is totally random...I wonder if they took DNA samples from these guys? You know, for research purposes into genetic or epigenetic triggers for this stuff. It would be a waste of data if they hadn't.

 

[MistyWaters]

Ahhhhhh... Websleuths. Where complex topics are dissected into such minuscule out of context snippets, that the entire reason for the discussion is completely lost.

The entire discussion is about whether killings happen based on copying others, or not.

If you're saying K and B aren't copycat killers, then should the police withhold evidence from the public because they fear copycats?

If B&K were not copycat killers then the RCMP have no reason to fear copycats, is that what you’re saying? I think you’re arguing just for the sake of arguing because you’re not making any sense.