PA - Conner, 8, & Brinley Snyder, 4, found hung, later died, Kempton, 23 Sept 2019 *Arrest*

[kittythehare]

Well I’m not sure I’m understanding exactly what was used even. So you might be right. But I think it’s the kind of tie out lead used for dogs. Thin chain with those lock clasp things at both ends? I can’t see how an effective loop could be made without involving those two ends.

Then the 8 year old would have to get two chairs, place them under a beam, reach the beam so he can hang the chain over it, and somehow rig it so both kids’ nevks Would be placed in two loops at opposite ends with the beam in the middle and the chain wrapped around it, figure out the length in order for BOTH kids to hang if the chairs got knocked over, Then get his sister to willingly have the loop placed around her neck and either hang her first or convince her somehow to kick the chair out from under her simultaneously with him, and it just seems too complex for a kid that age to figure out and actually carry out.

But I could definitely be wrong. I just can’t picture it.

The timing is also weird. They were revived enough to be on life support for a few days. I mean they likely had brain death but their deaths weren’t quick. It took 11 minutes for EMT to get there. That indicates to me that it wasn’t quick. They must’ve been slowly strangling and that the nooses weren’t that effective. But it means to me that the mom had to have found them immediately when they hanged. Not minutes later even.

Which is also suspicious to me.

I don’t know.

I'm trying to figure out how much time the medics spent before transferring them and what actions they could possibly have taken for the same reasons
we can assume the children were extracted but we don't know how long that procedure took or what was involved.
We can probably assume they were given CPR
We can probably assume measures were taken to re-start their hearts, defib, drugs etc.
Were they actually ventilated on site via portable apparatus?

Because, for all we know without verification of Conner's return from school that day,said to be between 3.50 and 4pm, but not confirmed, several other minutes could have lapsed or they may not have been conscious when placed in position...
Were they warm or cold?

Seems a long timespan before the call was allegedly closed at *.36pm... assuming that closure was deemed to have occurred once the children were delivered to the hospital but I'm unfamiliar with PA guidelines and procedures...
this is a very frustrating case for me.. I have a constant snarl in my throat and nose and I don't know what is outraging me more..

 

[downwardspiral]

I'm trying to figure out how much time the medics spent before transferring them and what actions they could possibly have taken for the same reasons
we can assume the children were extracted but we don't know how long that procedure took or what was involved.
We can probably assume they were given CPR
We can probably assume measures were taken to re-start their hearts, defib, drugs etc.
Were they actually ventilated on site via portable apparatus?

Because, for all we know without verification of Conner's return from school that day,said to be between 3.50 and 4pm, but not confirmed, several other minutes could have lapsed or they may not have been conscious when placed in position...
Were they warm or cold?

Seems a long timespan before the call was allegedly closed at *.36pm... assuming that closure was deemed to have occurred once the children were delivered to the hospital but I'm unfamiliar with PA guidelines and procedures...
this is a very frustrating case for me.. I have a constant snarl in my throat and nose and I don't know what is outraging me more..

I went back the the dispatch call.. 13 min out is stated on medevac while it appears EMTs are enroute. Hard to pin point arrival time but app 1 - 2 min later “pediatric cardiac arrest times 2 “ is called . Quickly 2 AED (defibrillators) are requested from separate trucks and landing is requested at nearby school. 13 min out from that point is confirmed again and they seem to be en route actively now. Don’t overly quote me - my kids are running around so I tried to do that from memory

in the middle of this a responders calls for - I can’t clearly make it out “pediatric DBM or DVM” For a 4 year old

 

[CSIDreamer]

I went back the the dispatch call.. 13 min out is stated on medevac while it appears EMTs are enroute. Hard to pin point arrival time but app 1 - 2 min later “pediatric cardiac arrest times 2 “ is called . Quickly 2 AED (defibrillators) are requested from separate trucks and landing is requested at nearby school. 13 min out from that point is confirmed again and they seem to be en route actively now. Don’t overly quote me - my kids are running around so I tried to do that from memory

in the middle of this a responders calls for - I can’t clearly make it out “pediatric DBM or DVM” For a 4 year old

Maybe BVM. They were probably bagging them. Breath mask valve I think is what it's called.

 

[kittythehare]

I went back the the dispatch call.. 13 min out is stated on medevac while it appears EMTs are enroute. Hard to pin point arrival time but app 1 - 2 min later “pediatric cardiac arrest times 2 “ is called . Quickly 2 ADD (defibrillators) are requested from separate trucks and landing is requested at nearby school. 13 min out from that point is confirmed again and they seem to be en route actively now. Don’t overly quote me - my kids are running around so I tried to do that from memory

in the middle of this a responders calls for - I can’t clearly make it out “pediatric DBM or DVM” For a 4 year old

so cardiac arrests were called before they reached the site?
that info must have come from mother, if I'm understanding you?
Working with that theory and I won't hold you to it..
it's not a slow procedure to intubate...
why did the call not close until 8.36pm?
like wdf were they actually doing for almost 4 hrs?
I'm assuming the journey to the hospital was speedy ?

 

[downwardspiral]

so cardiac arrests were called before they reached the site?
that info must have come from mother, if I'm understanding you?
Working with that theory and I won't hold you to it..
it's not a slow procedure to intubate...
why did the call not close until 8.36pm?
like wdf were they actually doing for almost 4 hrs?
I'm assuming the journey to the hospital was speedy ?

The closing of the call I would assume would be EMS and police off the scene. Whatever was initially stated on that 911 call categorized the call to helicopter standby- presumably cardiac arrest. The helicopter is noted to be 13 min out and is told to standby EMT arrival is app 30 sec out. Dead air. Pediatric arrest times two called and medevac activated and confirmed 13 out. Not sure flight time to hospital


Edited - the closing time would be them leaving the scene - I’m assuming after a preliminary investigation. It’s not reflective of life saving measures time on the kids , again assuming

 

[kittythehare]

Right. That all makes sense to me. People are saying that EMS couldn’t get the kids down and had to call fire. But the fire department is a first responder. They automatically go out to these calls. They often arrive first!

Found this, mainly Chicago but good synopsis of the debate.. 2017 link
Will search for PA procedures, does seem like a massive waste of resources
Why Send A Firetruck To Do An Ambulance's Job?

 

[kittythehare]

The closing of the call I would assume would be EMS and police off the scene. Whatever was initially stated on that 911 call categorized the call to helicopter standby- presumably cardiac arrest. The helicopter is noted to be 13 min out and is told to standby EMT arrival is app 30 sec out. Dead air. Pediatric arrest times two called and medevac activated and confirmed 13 out. Not sure flight time to hospital


Edited - the closing time would be them leaving the scene - I’m assuming after a preliminary investigation. It’s not reflective of life saving measures time on the kids , again assuming

I imagine closing would be after handover to hospital staff...?

 

[Backstroke10]

Well I’m not sure I’m understanding exactly what was used even. So you might be right. But I think it’s the kind of tie out lead used for dogs. Thin chain with those lock clasp things at both ends? I can’t see how an effective loop could be made without involving those two ends.

Then the 8 year old would have to get two chairs, place them under a beam, reach the beam so he can hang the chain over it, and somehow rig it so both kids’ nevks Would be placed in two loops at opposite ends with the beam in the middle and the chain wrapped around it, figure out the length in order for BOTH kids to hang if the chairs got knocked over, Then get his sister to willingly have the loop placed around her neck and either hang her first or convince her somehow to kick the chair out from under her simultaneously with him, and it just seems too complex for a kid that age to figure out and actually carry out.

But I could definitely be wrong. I just can’t picture it.

The timing is also weird. They were revived enough to be on life support for a few days. I mean they likely had brain death but their deaths weren’t quick. It took 11 minutes for EMT to get there. That indicates to me that it wasn’t quick. They must’ve been slowly strangling and that the nooses weren’t that effective. But it means to me that the mom had to have found them immediately when they hanged. Not minutes later even.

Which is also suspicious to me.

I don’t know.

I agree. I just can’t picture the 8 yr old doing any of this. Even if he was suicidal, I don’t think he would have ever dreamed up this plan. This was not a quick, breaking of the neck, hanging. This was essentially a strangulation that took time before they lost consciousness. I apologize if that sounded crass but I’m so upset by this case and what those poor kids went through. IMO There is no way the 8 yr old thought of this plan and executed it.

 

[downwardspiral]

I imagine closing would be after handover to hospital staff...?

Hmm. It’s called an “incident response time “ log for Berks County . That’s where I got the closing time. All of the calls are police- DUI, etc .. so I’m assuming the times reflect only police activity. EMS info solely comes from Dispatch recording

 

[downwardspiral]

I imagine closing would be after handover to hospital staff...?

For clarity - a picture of the logs and how calls were categorized . It’s far to big to post entire pic
Edit - trying to upload

 

[Wild Rose]

Right. That all makes sense to me. People are saying that EMS couldn’t get the kids down and had to call fire. But the fire department is a first responder. They automatically go out to these calls. They often arrive first!

Sometimes volunteers respond directly to the scene of a priority call and leave their personal vehicles at the scene and try to triage while responding with LE help. Trucks may be called for specialized equipment or tools. First thought I had was ladder or cutting tool. Sorry. Case is heartbreaking.

 

[Wild Rose]

I hope all involved get guidance with emotions. Prayers for them.

 

[Wild Rose]

I imagine closing would be after handover to hospital staff...?

Could be after responders return to scene to pick up equipment left behind in rush. Or LE leaving the scene.

 

[kittythehare]

Sometimes volunteers respond directly to the scene of a priority call and leave their personal vehicles at the scene and try to triage while responding with LE help. Trucks may be called for specialized equipment or tools. First thought I had was ladder or cutting tool. Sorry. Case is heartbreaking.

it is possible those tools were required too, we simply do not know right now. Stairwell to basement may have been too narrow for equipment or whatever.. but the receiver of the 911 appears to be the one that allocates resources for each call received.. in this case a heli was put on standby, 2 child size everythings ordered... suggesting mother gave reasonably accurate information...

 

[Wild Rose]

Also many fire department heads have personal fire vehicle, like an SUV or jeep, to get to the scene very quickly straight from their home or if volunteer, straight from their regular job with very kind and understanding bosses.

 

[kittythehare]

Is anybody up to speed on organ donation, please?

 

[musicaljoke]

I get the impression the dog was given away prior to the hangings. So why do they need to know the dogs weight? I could understand LE being suspicious of a wire that appeared to be new or unused. But I am lost on the weight.

They probably just need to know if there was a dog, and asking for a specific detail, such as the weight, is just to confirm some facts. There may be no pictures, no poop, no toys, collars, leashes, or food bowls, etc., nothing to give any hint that there was a dog, with the single exception of the tie out cable.

If all the dog's things went with the dog, then why not the cable too?

 

[musicaljoke]

He’s the one who informed law enforcement that she had multiple phones.

I take that as a sign that he’s not on his mom’s side.

Possibly, but not necessarily. He may have been answering questions related to the phones, not knowing that she had lied to the police.

 

[kittythehare]

Possibly, but not necessarily. He may have been answering questions related to the phones, not knowing that she had lied to the police.

true.. also unclear whether they requested all her electronic devices or just the one initially.

 

[musicaljoke]

Yeah. Like, "That's a strong chain but I don't see a dog. Do you know where your son got this?" "Oh yea, I had to buy it because my dog kept running away and she was strong. But I gave it away." "Oh yeah? That's a strong chain. How much did your dog weigh?" "Oh, about 50 pounds or so."

I don't believe they'd be asking these questions if they didn't have questions, you know what I mean?

We used to sell these tie out cables in our veterinary hspt. There is a super heavy cable available for an extra large dog. Very rarely did anyone pick that size because it was just so heavy. Apart from the clasp, I'm sure you could use it to pull a vehicle out of the ditch. No one would buy it for a 50 pound dog.

Do you think that the young boy weighs about 85-100 pounds, and the daughter maybe 35-40 pounds? Maybe the size of the tie out was cause for concern.