CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

[cazador]

The heat at 2 pm was about 102-104 (not extreme from the point of someone who lives in BHC, where it was 110-112 that day). By 4, it was certainly 104 in the shade.

I agree she went to the trailer for one or both of two reasons (potty break and heat - probably both). Still, they had camped near the Colorado River many times (see pictures) where it is always about 10 degrees hotter than at Granite Peak area, since it's quite a bit higher in altitude.

She never used the trailer, apparently, either because she couldn't find the key or because she never arrived there.

In just one hour, she could have gone 3 miles. Average grid search is about 1-2 square miles (so either ½ mile in each direction or ¾ mile) plus they had ATV's go behind the nearby boulders and a helicopter fly a perimeter - but aerial searches are a really poor substitute for ground searches). If they did 1 mile in each direction, that's 4 square miles (and still, she could easily be outside that area). Often, a double search is done in the 1-2 square mile area, taking 2-3 days (depending on heat - it got way hotter by that next Tuesday).

So, I think if she walked 2 miles (which would take about an hour), she'd have been outside the search area. At 3 miles from the starting point, that's 9 square miles - no desert search that I know of has ever been that large and it would have taken more than 8 days.

Gosh I wish we knew more to help you, Cazador. The thing about heat stroke is that the body reacts by disguising the initial discomfort (kind of like how cold victims start feeling hot). A person can get a chilly fever and feel quite perky while in the middle stages of heat exhaustion. But it's a large area to search. You be careful!

Thank You 10ofRods

RT said he went to the trailer, did not find her.. So he went back looking for her and still could not find her. Time is passing, but how much time ?.. That is important. At some point he had to communicate with LE asking for help. RT never did say or did he ? that he got in his vehicle and drove to an area that had reception. Did he leave ?

For myself, Most of the time when I am out in these areas my cell phone does not always work.

If she was only heat sick, that could lead to throwing up and diarrhea, which means she would have found shade and privacy while attempting to recover herself. If he left in the vehicle and she came around what would she do ? Panic ? Walk towards hwy 40 ? 2 Miles or so and then Heat stroke ?

All thought on my part .. Considering what is possible .. Please correct me.

Thank You

 

[katydid23]

Thank You 10ofRods

RT said he went to the trailer, did not find her.. So he went back looking for her and still could not find her. Time is passing, but how much time ?.. That is important. At some point he had to communicate with LE asking for help. RT never did say or did he ? that he got in his vehicle and drove to an area that had reception. Did he leave ?

For myself, Most of the time when I am out in these areas my cell phone does not always work.

If she was only heat sick, that could lead to throwing up and diarrhea, which means she would have found shade and privacy while attempting to recover herself. If he left in the vehicle and she came around what would she do ? Panic ? Walk towards hwy 40 ? 2 Miles or so and then Heat stroke ?

All thought on my part .. Considering what is possible .. Please correct me.

Thank You

I am not sure that he left in the vehicle. I think someone would have noticed if that RV was left unbuckled, by itself, alongside that highway.

I don't think he drove away during the time she was declared missing.

They had a keypad on the truck. I wonder why they didn't keep the keys inside the truck? Hiding them under a rock as opposed to locking them in the truck seems an odd choice.

 

[Stripehaven]

I feel they may have made a stop before the RV arrived at Kelbaker...and they possibly went walking there.

 

[katydid23]

I feel they may have made a stop before the RV arrived at Kelbaker...and they possibly went walking there.

YES. I have the same feeling.
That's why I wish we knew where she was when he took the 'proof of life' picture that he showed too LE. Was it back at the place they took the 360 degree photo? Because if so, she may have gone missing between there and his final stop where he parked the RV.

 

[LietKynes]

YES. I have the same feeling.
That's why I wish we knew where she was when he took the 'proof of life' picture that he showed too LE. Was it back at the place they took the 360 degree photo? Because if so, she may have gone missing between there and his final stop where he parked the RV.

Agreed.
Which would mean the search area is greatly expanded from what was initially thought.
As far as we know, the last place she was seen alive was at the dog kennel.
I wish the VI would weigh in sometime... hope he is doing o.k.

 

[10ofRods]

Thank You 10ofRods

RT said he went to the trailer, did not find her.. So he went back looking for her and still could not find her. Time is passing, but how much time ?.. That is important. At some point he had to communicate with LE asking for help. RT never did say or did he ? that he got in his vehicle and drove to an area that had reception. Did he leave ?

For myself, Most of the time when I am out in these areas my cell phone does not always work.

If she was only heat sick, that could lead to throwing up and diarrhea, which means she would have found shade and privacy while attempting to recover herself. If he left in the vehicle and she came around what would she do ? Panic ? Walk towards hwy 40 ? 2 Miles or so and then Heat stroke ?

All thought on my part .. Considering what is possible .. Please correct me.

Thank You

Those are all *very* good ideas. I don't know that he drove anywhere (because the SAR team had cell service at least intermittently, or so I am told). But, if he was back and forth (now carrying the key?) from the parking to other points to look for her...what would she do?

You're right that she could also have found herself suddenly needing to vomit or have diarrhea (sorry for the folks eating dinner right now) and might have sought privacy. People have gone lost in the Sierra seeking privacy for stomach issues (not realizing it was due to altitude) and that man who went missing on Shasta was having issues with diarrhea and appears to have vanished without a trace - they looked in every crevice, but he may have tried to go way down the mountain and gotten out of range of the search - anyway, he's still missing - about Barbara's age).

I would try to find my spouse in that case (but if we missed each other somehow, I don't know what I'd do - probably stick to the road and yes, head toward I-40). Would I try to flag down strangers? At some point, yes. I don't know if I'd get in the car, I'd ask them to call for aid.

She may have tried to walk as quickly as possible toward perceived shade and privacy (there are some trees just north of the dry wash) and ended up overheating even faster.

YES. I have the same feeling.
That's why I wish we knew where she was when he took the 'proof of life' picture that he showed too LE. Was it back at the place they took the 360 degree photo? Because if so, she may have gone missing between there and his final stop where he parked the RV.

That's possible, but I'd think by day 3-4, LE would have had a firm grasp of where that photo was and if they thought it was the last place she was seen alive, they'd have included that other place in their search.

Oddly, so far, no organized searches have taken place any place else (although apparently LE did stop by the convenience store, IIRC).

 

[MsBetsy]

Agreed.
Which would mean the search area is greatly expanded from what was initially thought.
As far as we know, the last place she was seen alive was at the dog kennel.
I wish the VI would weigh in sometime... hope he is doing o.k.

According to LE, the last time she was seen was where RT saw her in the desert.
If they believed the last time she was seen was at the dog kennel, why would the search take place two hours away?
Why wouldn't they interview the staff at the dog kennel if they believed that was the last place she was seen?
Why wouldn't it be referred to in the missing persons report if it had any relevance at all?

Imo

 

[LietKynes]

DBM.
Reason: added and clarified, I think.

 

[MsBetsy]

I think the VI said he believes there are photos of her in the desert.
We just don't know where the pics were taken or even if they were taken that day.
The VI was told this, but afaik , he hasn't seen the photos himself.

I wish LE would reveal the pics taken to the public. What can it hurt now ?
Somehow the kennel seems relevant to me.
But that's my opinion and subject to change.

Early on he said he "assumed" there were pictures of her at the desert.

Later he said that LE confirmed to him that Barbara was there and they had pictures of her. The pictures being referred to were the ones Robert took of her on their walk in the desert that day. It's clarified in several posts that they know she was there. I don't think he has seen them himself but he seems to think LE is being truthful.

This was one of the two things that he said LE had shared with him about the investigation.

The other was in regard to RT's suspicious behavior. He said that police told him that just because a person has suspicious behavior it does not mean he is a murderer.

The only other thing the VI mentioned was that LE was working on leads, but that was about a month after she went missing and we don't know if those leads ever amounted to anything.

I'm not sure what relevance her going to the kennel has other than one person said Barbara was herself and another person said she was not herself.

The VI also said he had no reason to believe RT and Barbara were not together when they left. The neighbor claimed that she saw them leave that morning.

Imo

 

[LietKynes]

Early on he said he "assumed" there were pictures of her at the desert.

Later he said that LE confirmed to him that Barbara was there and they had pictures of her. The pictures being referred to were the ones Robert took of her on their walk in the desert that day. It's clarified in several posts that they know she was there. I don't think he has seen them himself but he seems to think LE is being truthful.

This was one of the two things that he said LE had shared with him about the investigation.

The other was in regard to RT's suspicious behavior. He said that police told him that just because a person has suspicious behavior it does not mean he is a murderer.

The only other thing the VI mentioned was that LE was working on leads, but that was about a month after she went missing and we don't know if those leads ever amounted to anything.

I'm not sure what relevance her going to the kennel has other than one person said Barbara was herself and another person said she was not herself.

The VI also said he had no reason to believe RT and Barbara were not together when they left. The neighbor claimed that she saw them leave that morning.

Imo

LBM

Yes, that's right.
I edited my post for clarity but will maybe delete it.

Was wondering if the photos showed the place where they were at when the 911 call came in later; or somewhere else --but still in the desert ?
They may have been in the desert, but places other than Kelbaker road; earlier on.
The reason for musing about this is that anyone who searches via drone or otherwise will look in the right area.

The bit about the dog kennel may be nothing.
But I had other reasons to wonder about the sighting there and why Barbara had to leave Lexi there.
The fifth wheel was new and fully equipped with A/C; so Lexi would've been fine while they walked.

Yes, it's been stated they were together when they left in the morning; I wasn't objecting to that.
Should have posted more clearly.

 

[desertdreamer50]

Sorry, haven't quite grocked how to do the reply thing yet. The second half of the about post is mine...
Not discounting scenarios of heat stroke, getting lost, etc., the time discrepancy remains between when they presumably arrived at the site of their walk (around 10:15, 10:30), walked about 2 miles, and RT's 911 call in the dispatch log. Another possible scenario: they stop, they walk, RT takes Barb's photo to prove she was there, then they drive further and stop for yet another short walk.... and RT drives back to the first location and makes his 911 call. That completely throws off the radius of the search party.

 

[Curiousobserver]

The heat at 2 pm was about 102-104 (not extreme from the point of someone who lives in BHC, where it was 110-112 that day). By 4, it was certainly 104 in the shade.

I agree she went to the trailer for one or both of two reasons (potty break and heat - probably both). Still, they had camped near the Colorado River many times (see pictures) where it is always about 10 degrees hotter than at Granite Peak area, since it's quite a bit higher in altitude.

She never used the trailer, apparently, either because she couldn't find the key or because she never arrived there.

In just one hour, she could have gone 3 miles. Average grid search is about 1-2 square miles (so either ½ mile in each direction or ¾ mile) plus they had ATV's go behind the nearby boulders and a helicopter fly a perimeter - but aerial searches are a really poor substitute for ground searches). If they did 1 mile in each direction, that's 4 square miles (and still, she could easily be outside that area). Often, a double search is done in the 1-2 square mile area, taking 2-3 days (depending on heat - it got way hotter by that next Tuesday).

So, I think if she walked 2 miles (which would take about an hour), she'd have been outside the search area. At 3 miles from the starting point, that's 9 square miles - no desert search that I know of has ever been that large and it would have taken more than 8 days.

Gosh I wish we knew more to help you, Cazador. The thing about heat stroke is that the body reacts by disguising the initial discomfort (kind of like how cold victims start feeling hot). A person can get a chilly fever and feel quite perky while in the middle stages of heat exhaustion. But it's a large area to search. You be careful!

I agree- she didn't need to walk that far to be outside the area where they searched; and she could easily be 3-6 or more miles away. One thing though, I think she would follow an obvious trail as she walked. I don't think she would bushwhack in a bikini. Assuming that, then there are only so many combinations of trails that get you lost. I really think the most likely place to make a navigation error is at that first 4-way intersection on the way back to the camper. If she had gone straight there, then she would have hit the road in an hour and she would be safe in HK with her family. If she had gone left, she would have hit the camper. She must have turned right at that intersection instead. She may have walked up towards the hills in the west toward cove spring. I can't imagine why her red hat would not have looked like a beacon from a helicopter but I am confident that she will eventually be found along one of those trails if she did in fact get lost.

 

[CSIDreamer]

The other consideration for her staying on a trail if she took a wrong turn is that greenery. You would think if she veered into cholla anywhere close surely she would have let out with some screams of pain that RT would have heard. JMO

 

[PaulR]

I agree- she didn't need to walk that far to be outside the area where they searched; and she could easily be 3-6 or more miles away. One thing though, I think she would follow an obvious trail as she walked. I don't think she would bushwhack in a bikini. Assuming that, then there are only so many combinations of trails that get you lost. I really think the most likely place to make a navigation error is at that first 4-way intersection on the way back to the camper. If she had gone straight there, then she would have hit the road in an hour and she would be safe in HK with her family. If she had gone left, she would have hit the camper. She must have turned right at that intersection instead. She may have walked up towards the hills in the west toward cove spring. I can't imagine why her red hat would not have looked like a beacon from a helicopter but I am confident that she will eventually be found along one of those trails if she did in fact get lost.

There are trails and then there are "trails" - a lot of hikers who get lost are on "trails", which can be game trails, washes, or something else that looks like a path (maybe even is a path), but just not the path that you are supposed to be on. The problem is that sometimes you take those "trails" and you get dumped out without an obvious place to go to next, maybe even the "trail" that you took to get there is no longer really obvious, so you start wandering and do what you think will get you out of the situation. That can be seeking elevation to see if you can spot the parking lot/road/town, or going in a known direction if you know that's where civilization or rescue is. (So if she was west of the road, and knew east-west by looking at the sun, she could head west to hit the road.)

Apparently a lot of this is thrown out the window if the subject has dementia: Wandering and Alzheimer's Overview

 

[PommyMommy]

Sorry, haven't quite grocked how to do the reply thing yet. The second half of the about post is mine...
Not discounting scenarios of heat stroke, getting lost, etc., the time discrepancy remains between when they presumably arrived at the site of their walk (around 10:15, 10:30), walked about 2 miles, and RT's 911 call in the dispatch log. Another possible scenario: they stop, they walk, RT takes Barb's photo to prove she was there, then they drive further and stop for yet another short walk.... and RT drives back to the first location and makes his 911 call. That completely throws off the radius of the search party.

Welcome, desertdreamer50.

Just use the "Reply" button - it's easier - and make sure you type your response after the word "QUOTE" AND THE [].

Thanks for joining us. You'll get the hang of it in no time.

 

[squareandrabbet]

Also interesting in previous posts here about Alzheimer's coming on suddenly --without warning and the affected person immediately acting irrationally.
I kept thinking there is some warning, and time enough to get professional evaluation and medication.

Yeah, you could have knocked me over with a feather when I saw that intel about the gentleman who imagined a daughter he (AFAWK) never had...! I thought you got trapped in your own memories and didn't know where you were upon your own life continuum. I didn't know you could make up entire relationships. I guess maybe that particular Alzheimer's patient was conflating real life with a movie or TV show...??

 

[K9Enzo]

(IMO) Those with Alzheimer's, Dementia & little ones with Autism keep SAR busy with searches.

 

[BeachSky]

She went from fit, sharp, active, ticket to visit family soon, irritatedly dropping off her dog....to GONE.
Logic tells me a ton of things would of had to of lined up for RT’s abduction theory.
No dog (the abductor surely would not take her approx 30 lb dog along) no phone, no key, no supplies, no protective clothing, no sunscreen, no water, no one saw her (when he got ice he mentioned her to the clerk), not much clothing - bikini, boots, socks, cap, carrying a beer, she wanted to return to RV (alone) turned corner (was out of sight) had to cross the road to get to RV ...key was still under the rock. ..she was not within range to hear RT yell,see RT wave arms, see RT searching (before he called 911).
Search teams failed to find any sign of her.

This beautiful woman needs to be found.
I think it’s tragic for her family that the only given information is not helpful.
All MOO.



The French don’t say “I miss you” .
They say “Tu me Marques”
Which means “You are missing from me”

 

[MsBetsy]

She went from fit, sharp, active, ticket to visit family soon, irritatedly dropping off her dog....to GONE.
Logic tells me a ton of things would of had to of lined up for RT’s abduction theory.
No dog (the abductor surely would not take her approx 30 lb dog along) no phone, no key, no supplies, no protective clothing, no sunscreen, no water, no one saw her (when he got ice he mentioned her to the clerk), not much clothing - bikini, boots, socks, cap, carrying a beer, she wanted to return to RV (alone) turned corner (was out of sight) had to cross the road to get to RV ...key was still under the rock. ..she was not within range to hear RT yell,see RT wave arms, see RT searching (before he called 911).
Search teams failed to find any sign of her.

This beautiful woman needs to be found.
I think it’s tragic for her family that the only given information is not helpful.
All MOO.



The French don’t say “I miss you” .
They say “Tu me Marques”
Which means “You are missing from me”

The family has indicated that if LE does not find any new evidence that they will seek alternative methods to solve the case. I'm not sure what exactly that means, whether they will be hiring a private investigator or hiring a company to do a Drone search or whatever, but maybe they are busy doing something like that now.
Maybe that's why we haven't heard from Dbdb1 lately.
Hopefully he will fill us in soon.

 

[Cherwell]

Yeah, you could have knocked me over with a feather when I saw that intel about the gentleman who imagined a daughter he (AFAWK) never had...! I thought you got trapped in your own memories and didn't know where you were upon your own life continuum. I didn't know you could make up entire relationships. I guess maybe that particular Alzheimer's patient was conflating real life with a movie or TV show...??

If you're referring to the incident I posted about - he didn't have Alzheimer's disease. He never developed any kind of illness that involved dementia; he died a year or two later of heart disease.
It's possible that his confusion was brought on by a temporary affliction, such as a UTI as someone else mentioned.