IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand

[jjenny]

No doubt the grandfather was horrendously negligent, beyond really. Not sure I agree with criminal charges though.

My burning question: would there even be criminal charges if the family weren’t pursuing a liability suit against Royal Caribbean? I don’t think so.

This is so multi-faceted from opinion perspective and tragic on so many levels. I don’t agree with the lawsuit against Royal Caribbean in any way, but I’m on the fence thinking it’s a family looking for a payday from a tragic situation. I can speak from personal experience that in losing someone tragically, particularly a child, it’s really hard not to look for and latch onto something or someone to blame and throw anger at. Probably all the more so when the obvious and reasonable blame really is attached to something or someone even more unthinkable.

Credit to someone many posts ago who said there are no winners here. Understatement indeed.

There shouldn't be any connection between criminal charges and any civil lawsuit by the family. Criminal charges are brought by the DA, not Royal Caribbean. DA submitted evidence to a judge, neither DA nor judge are working for Royal Caribbean. What makes you think there is any connection?

 

[IceIce9]

Yes, hockey rink glass is either Plexiglas or tempered glass. Impact resistant. Having you kid bang on a glass window wouldn't be a good idea. So an argument that a kid likes to bang on hockey rink glass therefore it's fine for a kid to bang on window glass doesn't hold water in my opinion.

Wonder if the child banged on windows in their home?

Actually I don’t give much credibility to the “banging on the glass” reason for holding her up in the window. It wasn’t mentioned until the lawyer stated it later so I think it was an afterthought. Or after suggestion.

 

[al66pine]

Negligent Homicide Statute in Puerto Rico
§ 4737. Negligent homicide
Any person who causes the death of another through negligence shall incur a misdemeanor, but shall receive the penalty established for a fourth degree felony.

[ed: rest of this section 4737 re motor vehicular deaths is not app to case at hand]. When the death is caused while driving a motor vehicle with wanton disregard for the safety of others, or while aiming and shooting a firearm at an undefined target, the offender shall incur a third degree felony.
When the death is caused while driving a motor vehicle under the influence of controlled substances or alcoholic beverages, as provided and defined in §§ 5001 et seq. of Title 9, known as the “Puerto Rico Vehicle and Traffic Act”, the offender shall incur a second degree felony.

^ from Laws of Puerto Rico Annotated, 33 L.P.R.A. § 4737

ETA ---------------------------ETA -------------------ETA
"§ 4694. Applicable penalties
The penalties established for natural persons by this Code are established according to the classification of the degree of the offense for which the person was convicted, as follows:
(e) Fourth degree felony. — Entails a punishment of imprisonment for a fixed term in natural years which shall not be less than six (6) months and one (1) day, nor more than three (3) years. In such case, the person may be considered for parole by the Parole Board upon having served fifty percent (50%) of the term of imprisonment imposed."

[^ bbm. Interesting to me that NegHom offense is a misdemeanor, but with a fourth degree felony punishment. Just FYI, below]

"(f) Misdemeanor. — Entails a punishment of day-fine according to the financial situation of the convicted person which shall not exceed ninety (90) day-fines, a punishment of daily community services which shall not exceed ninety (90) days, imprisonment or house arrest in natural days of up to ninety (90) days, or a combination of these punishments, the total days of which shall not exceed ninety (90) days."

 

[Montrealaise]

So far the only reference I could find regarding the parents not wanting to watch the CCTV video was from The Sun:

Police in Puerto Rico have a copy of a video from the interior of the ship showing the fatal fall - and offered to show it to Chloe's parents but the couple were too distraught to view the distressing footage.

Instead they asked for a copy - but cops refused.

'CRITICAL EVIDENCE'
"One of the hold ups in our investigation is that Royal Caribbean have not provided us with CCTV footage of the incident which is the most critical piece of evidence," Winkleman explained.

"At this point they've outright refused to produce the video.

"We definitively know there is footage of the incident from the interior of the ship because the police in Puerto Rico wanted to show it to the family but not surprisingly the mom and dad were not willing or ready to watch it at that point.

"They asked for a copy of it but the police would not give it to them.
Cruise tot's family furious after firm 'refuses' to hand over CCTV of death fall

Anyone else have better luck? Now that criminal charges have been filed the grandfather's attorney will have access to the video with no problem. I wonder if the prosecution used it as evidence for the charge?

Looking for links was a sad task as so many articles had pictures of Chloe - such a beautiful, happy little gal. And it's clear to me that her grandfather adored her.

But... letting a toddler bang on glass/plexiglass during a hockey game? Ah, no. Not only is it annoying IMO it isn't safe. Over the years I've been on high floors in office buildings that had floor to ceiling windows and no way would I or my husband let our kids near them without one of us having a tight grip on them.

Would I be okay with disregarding the safety policies of the cruise ship and hoist my kid up on a railing to bang on the glass? Nope. The railing was in place to keep people a safe distance away. But then I always use my seatbelts too. And I sure wouldn't hire a nanny or babysitter who had a pile of tickets for not using theirs. MOO.

I wonder whether the family was aware of SA's numerous tickets for speeding and not wearing a seat belt? It speaks volumes about his character. Are they blaming the cruise ship company not only because they don't want to accept the truth that grandpa did something incredibly stupid and negligent, but also to assuage their own guilt at allowing him to babysit little Chloe without supervision? Just a theory.

 

[IceIce9]

Recently a toddler was killed in a women’s clothing store when a heavy display collapsed on top of her. Witnesses in the store said that four unsupervised children were climbing on the display before it fell. People were quick to blame the store until they heard the facts. That, too, was caught on video.

 

[lonetraveler]

<modsnip deleted post>
I'm pretty sure that the suit against the cruise ship is a civil suit and could be paid out and not go to court, however, the charge today is a criminal charge and not about to go away and can't be settled ahead of time.

 

[lonetraveler]

Hope this doesn't get me in trouble here but I've felt from the beginning that grandpa probably really doesn't want to go scott free without any retribution. Maybe this charge will help him feel like he is being held responsible for his actions and he can go on to heal from this tragedy. I know that he has blamed himself and always will but just maybe he needed the charges to happen.

 

[MyBelle]

In response to the point most respectfully bolded by me...

a direct quote from NHS England.

“How old is an older person?
Generally, someone over the age of 65 might be considered an older person. However, it is not easy to apply a strict definition because people can biologically age at different rates so, for example, someone aged 75 may be healthier than someone aged 60. Instead of simply age, ‘frailty’ has a bigger impact on their likelihood to require care and support.”

I think weight also plays a big role in aging. The grandfather looked overweight in his photos. He might have arthritis. Anybody's guess but I do believe his health may have been a factor as to why he was using the railing. It is there for a reason, after all.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

No doubt the grandfather was horrendously negligent, beyond really. Not sure I agree with criminal charges though.

My burning question: would there even be criminal charges if the family weren’t pursuing a liability suit against Royal Caribbean? I don’t think so.

This is so multi-faceted from opinion perspective and tragic on so many levels. I don’t agree with the lawsuit against Royal Caribbean in any way, but I’m on the fence thinking it’s a family looking for a payday from a tragic situation. I can speak from personal experience that in losing someone tragically, particularly a child, it’s really hard not to look for and latch onto something or someone to blame and throw anger at. Probably all the more so when the obvious and reasonable blame really is attached to something or someone even more unthinkable.

Credit to someone many posts ago who said there are no winners here. Understatement indeed.

Very true. It's my understanding that the civil lawsuit hasn't yet been filed but I doubt the criminal charges mean they will decide not to file it.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

See that's also part of the rub. The family keeps making a big deal about RC not giving them the video, but when RC offered to give them a viewing of it so they could see and understand what happened they refused. But it looks good for the family to beat their chests and claim the cruise line is being heartless and won't hand over possible evidence of a crime in the middle of an investigation

SA also declined to make an official statement to the investigation before the family left PR. He cooperated just enough to not be obstructing but was of no help to any of it.

As for why RC would only let them view it and not burn them a copy that's standard practice actually. Especially if there is a police investigation going on. They turned it over to the authorities and then were probably waiting for the all-clear from them. If the family is serious about suing they can get their copy through discovery.

Actually, it is the attorney for the family who has been asking for the video. I doubt the parents ever want to see it.

I think the family will continue to beat their chest and the news media will allow them to do just that.

JMO

 

[LvsAMystry]

Is it really fair to imply that Puerto Rico LE would bow to hypothetical pressure from Royal Caribbean to file charges against the grandfather because of the lawsuit? That implies corruption on the part of both Royal Caribbean and LE...it doesn’t seem right IMO to jump to that conclusion, even though it can and occasionally does happen (in any part of the U.S.). But it’s the exception, rather than the rule.

I don’t feel PR LE is bowing to pressure to file charges, but certainly there may be pressure to investigate it more fully as criminal negligence given the finger being pointed at them, whereas otherwise it may have been ruled a tragic accident. Ultimately I know the decision to file charges is by LE and LE alone.

 

[MyBelle]

I feel pretty sure that the hockey rinks are lined with Plexiglas and not glass though... no? I mean, all those players slamming against the wall... the velocity you can get from a puck, could be akin to shooting a bullet out of a gun...

I think Grandpa was both too drunk to note that the window wasn’t closed, and was probably doing that thing some people do where you ‘spot’ the kid, to give them the illusion that they are doing things ‘on their own’ - I.e., move your hands out about a quarter inch from their waist, poised to snatch them back the second they start wobbling. Only he was too late. I say this primarily because I can’t see my way clear to any scenario where someone would do that purposely to a child upon which they doted.

I'd be shocked if the cruise ship used glass in its windows. That would be disastrous if caught in a severe storm at sea.

JMO

 

[LvsAMystry]

There shouldn't be any connection between criminal charges and any civil lawsuit by the family. Criminal charges are brought by the DA, not Royal Caribbean. DA submitted evidence to a judge, neither DA nor judge are working for Royal Caribbean. What makes you think there is any connection?

I’m aware of the difference between criminal charges and civil lawsuit, and also the one doesn’t necessarily negate the other. All I’m saying is that if perhaps a lawsuit hadn’t been filed it would have been determined to be an accident and left at that.

 

[MyBelle]

Is it really fair to imply that Puerto Rico LE would bow to hypothetical pressure from Royal Caribbean to file charges against the grandfather because of the lawsuit? That implies corruption on the part of both Royal Caribbean and LE...it doesn’t seem right IMO to jump to that conclusion, even though it can and occasionally does happen (in any part of the U.S.). But it’s the exception, rather than the rule.

The family's attorney implied that very thing. One doesn't have to search far to see corruption and scandal have plagued Puerto Rico in recent months.

FBI Arrests Former Top Puerto Rico Officials In Government Corruption Scandal

 

[MyBelle]

I’m aware of the difference between criminal charges and civil lawsuit, and also the one doesn’t necessarily negate the other. All I’m saying is that if perhaps a lawsuit hadn’t been filed it would have been determined to be an accident and left at that.

If anything, the criminal charges may result in the family digging in and refusing to settle because they want this to be tried in the court of public opinion.

JMO

 

[musicaljoke]

Is it really fair to imply that Puerto Rico LE would bow to hypothetical pressure from Royal Caribbean to file charges against the grandfather because of the lawsuit? That implies corruption on the part of both Royal Caribbean and LE...it doesn’t seem right IMO to jump to that conclusion, even though it can and occasionally does happen (in any part of the U.S.). But it’s the exception, rather than the rule.

I don't know if it's fair or not, but it's the first thought that came to my mind.

 

[ilovewings]

If anything, the criminal charges may result in the family digging in and refusing to settle because they want this to be tried in the court of public opinion.

JMO

the way i see it, this family has not endeared itself to the public with their accusations against the cruise ship-- they did not come across very well-- i see this as horrible judgment on the part of grandpa----and i think most people see it that way

 

[SandyQLS]

Should the thread title be PR for Puerto Rico since the incident happened in San Juan and the criminal proceeding would be held there? WS doesn't usually use a victim's home state in the thread title when the incident happened in another state, country or place?

 

[LietKynes]

I’m aware of the difference between criminal charges and civil lawsuit, and also the one doesn’t necessarily negate the other. All I’m saying is that if perhaps a lawsuit hadn’t been filed it would have been determined to be an accident and left at that.

LBM
Good point !
Without the added pressures of those seeking a settlement; this would have quietly gone away.
So not the fault of Puerto Rico, nor the Royal Caribbean Cruise line.
It's doubtful either PR nor RCCL wanted this fight.
And it will be a struggle, regardless of what the video shows.

The family did not want to see the footage, but are furious they haven't been given a copy. According to above link. Post #187 by @MsMarple , thanks.

The PR LE and RCCL are wise to hang on to the footage and not allow the original to be seized, as footage can be tampered with.
This is their main protection !
Imo.

 

[Safeguard]

Interesting find, thanks.
It looks like S.A. did as he pleased.

Wonder if he deliberately dropped Chloe to her death ?
And planned to sue the cruise line ?

I very much doubt that. He had to be sedated on scene. By the look of his past record safety just wasn't a word in his vocabulary. Reckless Endangerment appears to be a "Lifestyle" for this guy. Miracle he hasn't already "accidentally" killed someone via Vehicular Manslaughter.