Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #116

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I can understand why you would think it's on the verge of becoming a cold case. But, IMO, it will never become a cold case because I believe LE know who killed them but don't have enough to prosecute.

As long as the case remains open, which technically means it's not cold - yes, I get that it's just semantics - and as long as the men and women who have been investigating this case are still breathing, it will never be cold. It's that personal to them.

I believe the upcoming anniversary of their murder will be especially hard for anyone who knows what really happened and has not done the right thing. If you're a person with any compassion - or believe in God, as I do - a secret like this will slowly kill you.

Let today be the day that this person does the right thing.
You've (presumably) never committed a double sexual homicide. Psychopaths don't suffer from pangs of conscience. Whoever BG is, he sleeps very well at night, I'll warrant.

Am I the only one here who still believes LE has no idea who BG is? It seems many people here think LE knows who he is but doesn’t have enough evidence to prosecute - and you guys may certainly be correct about that, considering that strange, strange, April press conference...
I also don't think that LE knows who BG is. They may have a list of suspects. The list may be two names long, or it may be 200 names long. BG's name may not even be on it.
 
Maybe the ringing spooked him and he just left it.

But, IMO, I think most people know that it's like carrying around a GPS even if it's powered off.
I've always been under the impression that DG called and the phone rang at 3:11, then again around 3:15, but the following calls thereafter went straight to voicemail. I think if the phone ringing was going to spook BG away, he would have left after the first call, so him turning it off after the second call doesn't make sense to me. It's just the way I see it, but others have put forward reasonable explanations for this.

I also think it's possible her phone was on mute and nobody heard it ringing. Or BG was already gone by then.

I've often wondered if it wound up in or near the water. It would have been easily lost in a struggle, too. I honestly think BG had no idea he was recorded and never gave the phone a thought.
 
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You've (presumably) never committed a double sexual homicide. Psychopaths don't suffer from pangs of conscience. Whoever BG is, he sleeps very well at night, I'll warrant.


I also don't think that LE knows who BG is. They may have a list of suspects. The list may be two names long, or it may be 200 names long. BG's name may not even be on it.
I've said the same thing about BG. But I was talking about the person who knows what BG did and, for whatever reason, has not come forward. That is the person who is not sleeping well at night. Hopefully, that person has a conscience and it is taking a toll keeping the secret.
 
JudgeJudi, post: 15563806, member: 115161"This is the first time I've heard of the girls persistently asking Kelsi for a ride to the bridge and does not accord with what Becky says.

The following is an extract from my transcript of Gray Hughes' interview with Mike and Becky Patty:

Monday morning

BP: "They slept in ‘cause they were up late. When they got up it was, I don’t know, probably 10:00 or so and Derrick made them pancakes. They had pancakes, and of course Libby always wants to be on the go and she was wanting to do something but Kelsi had to work that day. I was working and Derrick took off to go take some pictures for me, and so I told Libby – she’d kind of gotten into shopping recently. She enjoyed shopping which was new for her because I used to have to drag her with me to buy her school clothes. Because Libby has started enjoying shopping, I told her that “I have some filing to do and if you girls want to do some filing for me, I’ll pay you and maybe later on today or tonight when I’m done, we could go”.

So they came out and were doing some filing – they were out with the file cabinets, filing and stuff – and Kelsi came out – see, I don’t know the exact time of that, you know, why would we have paid attention to that – but she came out – it was probably close to 1:00 and said, “Hey, I work at 4:00. I’m going to go to a friend’s house for a little bit and then, then I’m going on to work. Well, as soon as Libby heard that, Libby jumped up and said, “Hey, will you take us to the bridge?” and Kelsi said, “I don’t care”. And she looked at me and said, “Grandma, can I go?” and I said, “Well, you’ve got to have a ride home ‘cause I’m working and I can’t stop to pick you up, you know, until quitting time and I’m not – I just don’t have the time to do it”. So she said, “Well, I’ll just call my Dad”. Well, I assumed that she called her Dad. I didn’t specifically say, “Libby, did you call your Dad?” I assumed it was done. And another thing that I automatically tell kids when they have a friend over when they ask if they can do something, one of the things that I automatically say is, is it okay with their parents. You know, like that’s just – any time somebody spends the night and they want to go do something, then I’ll say, well, they have to ask their parents too. I assumed that everything was okay when she came and said, “Hey, we’re leaving”. She called her Dad on the way but it’s because she knew that he would never tell her “No”. He ne…, Derrick never told her “No” for anything, not that she ever asked for anything unrealistic but if she asked him to do something, he just, he did it. It’s just that – and if he would have said, “No”, I guess she would have come back home – Kelsi would have just brought her home – but there was no reason for him not to. He was taking these pictures, about 3 miles out of his way to swing by and pick her up. So it wasn’t big deal for him to swing by and pick her up. And they did. That’s when they left."

You can hear Kelsi say this in her video “Debunking rumors, Renner video and opting in” @ the 2:55 mark. I also heard her say this in another video. I’m still looking for the other video where she said Libby had been asking her to take her to the bridge for a couple weeks. It did exist as I heard her say that more than once.

On a different subject ...
In Chapter 4 of the series of Renner’s video, Kelsi states that there were 10-20 kids there that day when she dropped the girls off. Let me start by saying, I’m not accusing anyone of anything, just trying to understand. I would love to know where she saw 10-20 kids. She dropped them off on the little side entrance on 300 N. There is no parking lot there so how did she come up with that number of people? She specifically states she saw that many people. That statement totally confuses me.
 
You can hear Kelsi say this in her video “Debunking rumors, Renner video and opting in” @ the 2:55 mark. I also heard her say this in another video. I’m still looking for the other video where she said Libby had been asking her to take her to the bridge for a couple weeks. It did exist as I heard her say that more than once.

On a different subject ...
In Chapter 4 of the series of Renner’s video, Kelsi states that there were 10-20 kids there that day when she dropped the girls off. Let me start by saying, I’m not accusing anyone of anything, just trying to understand. I would love to know where she saw 10-20 kids. She dropped them off on the little side entrance on 300 N. There is no parking lot there so how did she come up with that number of people? She specifically states she saw that many people. That statement totally confuses me.
Yeah. There definitely seems to have been some kind of young peoples' "event" going on out there. And, LE probably now realizes they dropped the ball on this line of investigation....perhaps thinking "not our kids, not these kids, all of these kids are good kids"....or perhaps due to some creativity at the CS on the part of the perps.
 
Maybe. Depends if he saw it. Maybe he did not see the phone if Libby was disguising her movement in the sweep that captured him.

Later he might have been loath to take the phone due to forensic tracking. MOO doing nothing about the phone seems in line with the rest of the crime, he let luck, speed and surprise cover him.
The lead investigator, ISP 1st Sgt. Holeman, stated in a interview that in his opinion the killer did not know he was caught on video or audio. But he qualifies that by stating it is strictly his opinion.
 
You can hear Kelsi say this in her video “Debunking rumors, Renner video and opting in” @ the 2:55 mark. I also heard her say this in another video. I’m still looking for the other video where she said Libby had been asking her to take her to the bridge for a couple weeks. It did exist as I heard her say that more than once.

On a different subject ...
In Chapter 4 of the series of Renner’s video, Kelsi states that there were 10-20 kids there that day when she dropped the girls off. Let me start by saying, I’m not accusing anyone of anything, just trying to understand. I would love to know where she saw 10-20 kids. She dropped them off on the little side entrance on 300 N. There is no parking lot there so how did she come up with that number of people? She specifically states she saw that many people. That statement totally confuses me.
Iirc, also in the livestream that Kelsi broadcast to clarify some points, she addressed her own statement about 10-20 kids. Again iirc, she amended her intended meaning to ....her having KNOWLEDGE OF 10-20 PEOPLE BEING ON THE TRAIL THAT DAY ( Capitals by Me)



Hth , even though imho the two diff meanings seem way apart
 
You guys never had to reboot your phones before? I’ve had to do it sooo many times thru out the years for various reasons (like the phone not registering to service, battery issues, games or apps freezing up the phone making it unbearably slow, hand-me down phone, many reasons). So I don’t think it’s all that strange. Didn’t someone in her family say her phone was having issues prior to having it rebooted
Have never had to reboot or factory reset and have had phones since late 90's. Reset cookies and delete tabs and downloaded files but that's all.
 
So this is pretty significant, in my opinion. Because in this version it doesn’t state that Abby actually called Anna, and spoke with Anna to ask permission. Because in other versions I had heard previously, Becky stated that Abby had to call Anna to ask permission first. So was Anna even aware that they were going to the Bridge? Did Abby actually call her and ask permission? Because if not that might eliminate DE knowing that they were going to the bridge.
AFAIK they did not get permission from Anna. But I may be wrong. I am basing this on the fact that Anna herself said that when they contacted her to let her know the girls were missing from the Bridge area, she said "she is so grounded". MOO
 
AFAIK they did not get permission from Anna. But I may be wrong. I am basing this on the fact that Anna herself said that when they contacted her to let her know the girls were missing from the Bridge area, she said "she is so grounded". MOO

And not to beat a dead horse, but the fact that the girls were not found at her house, on C.R. 625, should have raised alarms very early on.

Imagine if the girls had seen BG way off towards the other end of the bridge, and they decided to get off the bridge, down to the drive, walked up the drive to C.R. 625, and to Anna's house, they would be alive today. It's a short walk.

JMO
 
You've (presumably) never committed a double sexual homicide. Psychopaths don't suffer from pangs of conscience. Whoever BG is, he sleeps very well at night, I'll warrant.


I also don't think that LE knows who BG is. They may have a list of suspects. The list may be two names long, or it may be 200 names long. BG's name may not even be on it.
I agree. I believe this killer has had some problems sleeping, BUT NOT because of Abigail and Liberty. His concern is for HIMSELF and how close LE might be. He might have had some concern over the last PC IF LE was now moving in the right direction, but after over 6 months his concerns are for petty things like getting paid, what to eat, who is playing in an upcoming sporting event. Right now, I'm thinking he sits back and believes he got away with it - when he does think about it.
 
The murder occurred on February 13, 2017--two years and 10 months ago. Liberty German videotaped the murderer walking across the bridge, and may have even recorded the murder itself. There have been thousands of tips, but no arrests.
6 months ago in an uncomfortable news conference that seemed overly emotional and even IMO unprofessional, with references to a movie (The Shack), and announcements of a new investigative strategy, directed at the murderer apparently, LEO issued a new sketch which looks nothing like the guy Libby videotaped on the bridge.

Still no arrest since that time. Given the length of time since the murders, and the confusion about the two sketches, to me it unfortunately seems this case is heading towards cold case status, with little chance of LEO arresting anyone and little chance of justice for Libby and Abby. Does anyone else hold that view, or do you feel LEO will eventually find and arrest the murderer?

I agree with you. I think at the same time, though, you have to understand that LE had to do something after 5 months. So they release the first sketch and either cleared that person or gave up on it as a lead once they got the new information that caused them to release the 2nd sketch.

The overwhelming confidence in the second sketch does not look like the man in Liberty German's video. And that is what is so concerning. If wrong, it could inadvertently lead everyone in the wrong direction. Someone may see the sketch and think it is a closeup of the video. Then LE ends up receiving hundreds of tips about people that look nothing like the actual killer, in either age or appearance. If LE released yet another sketch, I think the public would have a hard time taking it seriously at this point in the investigation.

I think this would be a cold case except for the video from Liberty German's phone. There will always be the chance that someone out there will be able to differentiate the video from the sketch and call in a tip that leads to the right person. In my opinion, if this case gets solved it will be because of the video and not the sketch.

John Douglas, The Mindhunter FBI profiler, said it best when he said that someone just does not wake up one day and commit a double homicide like this. I think this killer has probably killed before and that means he has experience. But the killer seems patient enough that LE has never connected his crimes together. I think he is an older individual in his 50's or 60's who knows how LE thinks because he has followed his other crimes. With video and audio, the fact that a significant other has not reported him after all this time suggests to me that he may be single too. As to where he is located, LE obviously believes he is from the Delphi area. Otherwise, why make the comment about the killer possibly being in the room at the April press conference? As to where the killer is located presently, I can only guess. From what I have read, criminals tend to start near their home base and venture out from there. But I do not think Abigail Williams and Liberty German are his first victims either.

I know we have to give LE time to solve the case. So all anyone can do is wait.
 
I think it’s important to keep keeping our eyes out for other potentially related crimes. We don’t know of course how far he traveled IF he traveled to commit this atrocity but I would still be keeping my eyes open in other neighboring states and cities within a few hours drive jmo.

—-

ETA:

Another thing. While we haven’t heard anything since the last PC in April, that PC sure did stir things up and attract more attention, moo.
 
The murder occurred on February 13, 2017--two years and 10 months ago. Liberty German videotaped the murderer walking across the bridge, and may have even recorded the murder itself. There have been thousands of tips, but no arrests.
6 months ago in an uncomfortable news conference that seemed overly emotional and even IMO unprofessional, with references to a movie (The Shack), and announcements of a new investigative strategy, directed at the murderer apparently, LEO issued a new sketch which looks nothing like the guy Libby videotaped on the bridge.

Still no arrest since that time. Given the length of time since the murders, and the confusion about the two sketches, to me it unfortunately seems this case is heading towards cold case status, with little chance of LEO arresting anyone and little chance of justice for Libby and Abby. Does anyone else hold that view, or do you feel LEO will eventually find and arrest the murderer?

One other thing I forgot to mention is that when the April 22, 2019 press conference happened, I thought that maybe the new sketch was a ploy to throw the real killer off track. If LE knows what the murderer looks like, release a sketch that looks nothing like the man so that he think law enforcement is not on to him. I know that does not make a lot of sense in terms of tips from the public.

But now after over 6 months, I am starting to think LE really does not know what the murderer of Abigail Williams and Liberty German looks like.
 
I agree with you. I think at the same time, though, you have to understand that LE had to do something after 5 months. So they release the first sketch and either cleared that person or gave up on it as a lead once they got the new information that caused them to release the 2nd sketch.

The overwhelming confidence in the second sketch does not look like the man in Liberty German's video. And that is what is so concerning. If wrong, it could inadvertently lead everyone in the wrong direction. Someone may see the sketch and think it is a closeup of the video. Then LE ends up receiving hundreds of tips about people that look nothing like the actual killer, in either age or appearance. If LE released yet another sketch, I think the public would have a hard time taking it seriously at this point in the investigation.

I think this would be a cold case except for the video from Liberty German's phone. There will always be the chance that someone out there will be able to differentiate the video from the sketch and call in a tip that leads to the right person. In my opinion, if this case gets solved it will be because of the video and not the sketch.

John Douglas, The Mindhunter FBI profiler, said it best when he said that someone just does not wake up one day and commit a double homicide like this. I think this killer has probably killed before and that means he has experience. But the killer seems patient enough that LE has never connected his crimes together. I think he is an older individual in his 50's or 60's who knows how LE thinks because he has followed his other crimes. With video and audio, the fact that a significant other has not reported him after all this time suggests to me that he may be single too. As to where he is located, LE obviously believes he is from the Delphi area. Otherwise, why make the comment about the killer possibly being in the room at the April press conference? As to where the killer is located presently, I can only guess. From what I have read, criminals tend to start near their home base and venture out from there. But I do not think Abigail Williams and Liberty German are his first victims either.

I know we have to give LE time to solve the case. So all anyone can do is wait.

You think he has killed before. Do you think he has killed since? I don't think he has killed before, but I think he has possibly killed since, maybe more than once. MOO

What do other posters think?
 
We have over 45K in tips now. If there was going to be a tip I believe there is strong possibility the killer is in there somewhere. (Maybe that is the real "hiding in plain sight"!) There have been crimes committed where LE had the killer on their radar and that killer walked away to commit more. Ted Bundy was looked at by LE, but dismissed because a witness misidentified the color of his VW Beetle in the dark. He would kill more after that point. Gary Ridgway, the Green River Killer, was given a polygraph test in 1984 and passed, then he went on killing.

OTH, if this guy lives alone and was off work that day OR worked a night shift and he lives a couple of hours away or more, who would suspect? Who would make the connection if he looked nothing like the first sketch? If he looks close to the 2nd sketch and lives quite a ways from Delphi, who would make the connection over 2 years later. I know where I was on 13 February 2017, but because I was out of town I couldn't tell where ANY of my friends or neighbors were that day. In fact, with the exception of the 4 co-workers who with me, I can't tell you where ANY of my co-workers were that week.
 
AFAIK they did not get permission from Anna. But I may be wrong. I am basing this on the fact that Anna herself said that when they contacted her to let her know the girls were missing from the Bridge area, she said "she is so grounded". MOO
What I had seen previously was that Abby was allowed to hike on the trails but not cross the bridge.
 
The worst thing that the police could have done is to release the sketches (composite drawings). All it does is flood the tip line with well meaning people giving worthless information with no one to investigate the “tips”. In most cases these sketches are the result of mayors, police chiefs, or other high ranking officials wanting the public to believe that the police are all over the case and a solution is coming soon.

Most experienced investigators shudder when the suggestion of a sketch comes up. I had a major case in the 1980’s sometime where I was ordered to have a sketch made. After it was released I never got out of the building for a week.
 
You think he has killed before. Do you think he has killed since? I don't think he has killed before, but I think he has possibly killed since, maybe more than once. MOO

What do other posters think?
I believe there is a possibility he killed before or since. But I lean toward this being the only time he has murdered. With all that has been stirred up since Abigail and Liberty were murdered, I tend think he likely hasn't killed since. HOWEVER, I don't believe this is the only offense he has committed. He might have sexually assaulted or molested other young girls before and was not convicted. Maybe it wasn't reported, the charges were dropped or the victim hasn't said anything to anyone. What if he killed a homeless person or a young runaway? If he has killed other victims, the age or even the sex of the victim maybe entirely different. Even the crime scene might have been different. That is, he may have killed a woman in the 20-40 age range on a jogging trail or out camping. He may have picked up a runaway and while that person is known to be missing, no one knows that person is dead or maybe no one is even looking for them.
 
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