John's Blue Bathrobe....

[JMO8778]

Also, if he puts a robe on after a shower, hears a scream and drops it, are we to understand that he ran out nude??? Not trying to be silly, but he was a father to two young children who too could have heard the scream. There are defininatley holes in this version of events.

he says he was in his underwear,and that's all.I find it very suspect that he tried to account for his underwear fibers in JB's room,more specically,on the floor near her bed.

 

[JMO8778]

One thing I've learned about those 'hunches' is that they're not all that reliable when it comes to abuse.

Time and time again a tearful mother, or tearful parents, say about an abuser: "We just didn't know. We thought "X" was a terrific guy. We thought the kids were perfectly safe with him/her." The woman on TV whose husband was selling kiddie *advertiser censored* of him abusing their own eight year old daughter had no idea her husband was doing anything of the kind.

How many young male students have been abused by female teachers? How many times have stunned parents said, "We never saw anything wrong? We never saw any warning signs? We thought she was a good teacher?" Same thing for the priest scandal, for sports coaches everyone liked, for that nice older gentleman down the street. There just isn't a "type" of molester that can always be identified, and ruling out either of the adult Rs on the grounds of a hunch or feeling is something I don't think we can afford to do.

That said, I don't think actual molestation occurred Christmas night. I think something happened, and someone snapped, and whether it was PR or JR I think it did have something to do with the chronic abuse that seemed to show up in the autopsy.

If JBR had been a better reader, I'd wonder very much about that dictionary entry--if she was caught looking up that particular word by someone in her family who was abusing her, then the murder might have take place right there in the study! But from everything I've read looking up a word like that would have been beyond her very early reader skills.

well said !!!! :clap:
JR's behavior is very suspect to me.I think he was behind the RN,then LA seeing with her own eyes his guilt..I know she was inept on a lot of things,but I trust her intuition on that.
And he was all too anxious to appear on CNN,be seen a church,blaming his own friends,trying to get out of town asap after the body was found,even thinking of fleeing the country(passports,mementos retrieved by Pammy)....he obv. has MUCH more to hide that just covering for Patsy,IMO!!!
JR made a point of saying that JB couldn't read yet in DOI.I don't know if that's bc of the large Wed. underwear or what.

 

[JMO8778]

I know...its just women's intuition, I guess. I just don't feel like he was molesting her. Yes, it was a dictionary, and the corner of the page was turned down, and pointing to the word incest. Could have been a coincidence....OR...Burke knows more than he is saying...maybe he looked up the word, for some reason. Patsy and John would have known what that word meant without having to look it up or mark the page. Maybe Burke heard them talking....and maybe John was saying something like..."they are going to accuse me of incest"....or something like that. Which THEY did.

wasn't the robe in the same room w the dictionary? correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Ames]

wasn't the robe in the same room w the dictionary? correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe that you are correct about that....

 

[JMO8778]

You know....that's the part that gets me. I also believe that John, for whatever reason...."vetoed the sexual assault in favor of a kidnapping scenario", but, what I can't figure out is WHY? Otherwise, the wiping down and the re-dressing makes absolutely no sense at all. John...(thinking to himself)..."Hmmmm, now we could make this look like a sexual assault, ...how would I go about doing that? Let's see....I will insert this paintbrush, and then....let's see....what else could I do to make it look like a sexual assault? Hey, I know....I will wipe her down, put clean panties on her, redress her...and for a special effect, wrap her like a papoose in her blanket. Oh yes, definately....for sure, if that doesn't point to a sexual assault, then I don't know what will". UMMMM...I don't THINK so!

I think someone panicked and that panic led to a first staging that consisted of getting JB out of the house,and trying to cause it to appear a pedo abducted and molested her.
Later that idea was abandoned and a KN gone wrong scenerio was created...with an attempt to hide the staged assault,as JR would
be the most likely one in the house to get the blame for that.
Looking back at the RN,(you will also be denied her remains for proper buriel) that is the only thing that makes sense to me.

 

[Ames]

I think someone panicked and that panic led to a first staging that consisted of getting JB out of the house,and trying to cause it to appear a pedo abducted and molested her.
Later that idea was abandoned and a KN gone wrong scenerio was created...with an attempt to hide the staged assault,as JR would
be the most likely one in the house to get the blame for that.
Looking back at the RN,(you will also be denied her remains for proper buriel) that is the only thing that makes sense to me.

I agree!! Its the only thing that makes sense to me too. And when plan A fell though, they placed her in the next best thing, to outside....the cellar. Why not leave her in the basement, amongst all of their junk? Why the wine cellar?...Because it was about as close to outside as they could get...without actually placing her outside...they placed her in the bowels of the house.

 

[Dru]

I think someone panicked and that panic led to a first staging that consisted of getting JB out of the house,and trying to cause it to appear a pedo abducted and molested her.
Later that idea was abandoned and a KN gone wrong scenerio was created...with an attempt to hide the staged assault,as JR would
be the most likely one in the house to get the blame for that.
Looking back at the RN,(you will also be denied her remains for proper buriel) that is the only thing that makes sense to me.

I agree that the first plan was to get JBR out of the house; however, I don't think there was ever a plan to stage the crime like a pedo crime: remember the RN. Even if JBR had been taken out of the house, as I think they originally wanted to do (or at least one of them) the RN would have made it look like a politically/personally motivated hate crime against JR, with the ridiculously small ransom amount just a 'cover' to give the alleged 'kidnappers' time before the police started looking for a body.

The only reason we, looking back, think "pedo" crime is because of the sexual wound, not any particular element in the staging, IMO.

 

[Dru]

I agree!! Its the only thing that makes sense to me too. And when plan A fell though, they placed her in the next best thing, to outside....the cellar. Why not leave her in the basement, amongst all of their junk? Why the wine cellar?...Because it was about as close to outside as they could get...without actually placing her outside...they placed her in the bowels of the house.

I think there's an even simpler explanation, Ames.

Someone wanted to control the timing of the finding of the body. Remember the RN said the KN would call between 8 and 10 'tomorrow'? I'm firmly convinced that 'tomorrow' was a mistake, an oversight on the part of our hapless amateur stagers, who didn't foresee the confusion that would create--tomorrow the 26th? or tomorrow the 27th? What was supposed to happen was:

a) police arrive, find note
b) police set up 'kidnapper phone trace apparatus' like in the movies and wait for the call.
c) at 10:05 or so when no one has called, police do a thorough search of the house looking for 'clues'
d) sometime between 10:05 and noon JBR's body is discovered, allowing the R's to leave before the family members with medical training, Melinda and Stewart Long, show up.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) the police didn't do things the way "somebody" expected them to. As the time for the arrival of Melinda and Stewart drew near, JR became increasingly agitated, and finally went and 'found' the body, getting them out of the house just as the taxi with M & S inside drew up to the house.

And later, JR slips and says the body was discovered at "11:00;" right in the middle of the time he, or somebody, has designated as the proper time for JBR to be found, to keep everything moving smoothly.

 

[Ames]

I think there's an even simpler explanation, Ames.

Someone wanted to control the timing of the finding of the body. Remember the RN said the KN would call between 8 and 10 'tomorrow'? I'm firmly convinced that 'tomorrow' was a mistake, an oversight on the part of our hapless amateur stagers, who didn't foresee the confusion that would create--tomorrow the 26th? or tomorrow the 27th? What was supposed to happen was:

a) police arrive, find note
b) police set up 'kidnapper phone trace apparatus' like in the movies and wait for the call.
c) at 10:05 or so when no one has called, police do a thorough search of the house looking for 'clues'
d) sometime between 10:05 and noon JBR's body is discovered, allowing the R's to leave before the family members with medical training, Melinda and Stewart Long, show up.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) the police didn't do things the way "somebody" expected them to. As the time for the arrival of Melinda and Stewart drew near, JR became increasingly agitated, and finally went and 'found' the body, getting them out of the house just as the taxi with M & S inside drew up to the house.

And later, JR slips and says the body was discovered at "11:00;" right in the middle of the time he, or somebody, has designated as the proper time for JBR to be found, to keep everything moving smoothly.

Makes sense to me. If they had placed her outside somewhere...dumped the body....like a few miles down the road, then the police for sure never would have been able to find her in time...and it would have looked mighty suspicious, if John had of left the house, to go looking for her...and found her somewhere, dumped down the road. For whatever reason, I believe that Plan A was to dump the body.....and then it changed to Plan B. The paintbrush insertion, was imo...them getting just a little bit carried away with the staging.

 

[DeeDee249]

I think Dru's scenbario makes a lot of sense. I'm not 100% sure the original plan was to place the body outside, especially a distance away. While it would have made a kidnapping seem much more plausible, I can't see PR (even if she was the one responsible for the death of her daughter) agreeing to the dumping. However, I was amazed at the ease with which BOTH parents were able to leave their dead baby's body in that creepy house all alone when they left that night. AND JR's plan to scram outta town ASAP after the fact - it's almost as if now that she was dead, she didn't exist any more. JR couldn't leave his golf clubs behind in the house, PR "needed" her favorite black jeans that she wore that day, but their daughter's body? Nah...

 

[Ames]

I think Dru's scenbario makes a lot of sense. I'm not 100% sure the original plan was to place the body outside, especially a distance away. While it would have made a kidnapping seem much more plausible, I can't see PR (even if she was the one responsible for the death of her daughter) agreeing to the dumping. However, I was amazed at the ease with which BOTH parents were able to leave their dead baby's body in that creepy house all alone when they left that night. AND JR's plan to scram outta town ASAP after the fact - it's almost as if now that she was dead, she didn't exist any more. JR couldn't leave his golf clubs behind in the house, PR "needed" her favorite black jeans that she wore that day, but their daughter's body? Nah...

OMG...I didn't know about Patsy "needing" her favorite black jeans. I did know about John wanting those golf clubs...even though...Patsy says in her interview that he was not an avid golfer, and she couldn't even remember the last time that he played. In Burkes interview...not long after JB's death...he was asked to draw a picture of his family...he drew...his dad, himself and his mom....but no sister. The interviewer and psychiatrist even thought this was weird...because even after YEARS have passed after the death of a sibling, children always include them in the the pictures that they draw. Burke...and his parents...just pretended that she never existed.

 

[DeeDee249]

The interviews with BR were weird, true.
As far as PR's black velvet jeans that she wore to the White's (and for the murder)- I recall PR asking for her sister to specificaly get those for her. She said "she really liked those pants". I remember thinking that as far as what I was wearing when my little girl's dead body was found in my basement, I would never want to see those clothes again if it were me. I was suspicious right away about her reasons for wanting those pants (to have them cleaned, maybe?) As if she couldn't have bought a dozen new pairs. And it was about a YEAR before LE got a hold of those clothes anyway, right? Another botch-up. The clothes the whole family was wearing should have been collected and bagged that night! Shoes too.

 

[Ames]

The interviews with BR were weird, true.
As far as PR's black velvet jeans that she wore to the White's (and for the murder)- I recall PR asking for her sister to specificaly get those for her. She said "she really liked those pants". I remember thinking that as far as what I was wearing when my little girl's dead body was found in my basement, I would never want to see those clothes again if it were me. I was suspicious right away about her reasons for wanting those pants (to have them cleaned, maybe?) As if she couldn't have bought a dozen new pairs. And it was about a YEAR before LE got a hold of those clothes anyway, right? Another botch-up. The clothes the whole family was wearing should have been collected and bagged that night! Shoes too.

Yeah, I am sure that she didn't want them just to wear to the Mall. She had a reason....having them cleaned would be it...IMO, too.

Yes, they totally blotched that whole collecting the clothes thing...I so totally agree...they should have been collected that night....not one year later, after they have had time to be cleaned a million times.

John's golf clubs....same story...IMO....he wanted them, because the bag contained evidence....JB's size 6 panties, for example.

 

[JMO8778]

OMG...I didn't know about Patsy "needing" her favorite black jeans. I did know about John wanting those golf clubs...even though...Patsy says in her interview that he was not an avid golfer, and she couldn't even remember the last time that he played. In Burkes interview...not long after JB's death...he was asked to draw a picture of his family...he drew...his dad, himself and his mom....but no sister. The interviewer and psychiatrist even thought this was weird...because even after YEARS have passed after the death of a sibling, children always include them in the the pictures that they draw. Burke...and his parents...just pretended that she never existed.

that makes me wonder if they told him to forget about JB....they're getting on w their lives...just like they said on tv,and to their friends GA(as they told ST).
or was he in denial b/c it hurt too much? He didn't seem to have much in the way of feelings..almost as if he were somewhat autistic.

 

[JMO8778]

I agree that the first plan was to get JBR out of the house; however, I don't think there was ever a plan to stage the crime like a pedo crime: remember the RN. Even if JBR had been taken out of the house, as I think they originally wanted to do (or at least one of them) the RN would have made it look like a politically/personally motivated hate crime against JR, with the ridiculously small ransom amount just a 'cover' to give the alleged 'kidnappers' time before the police started looking for a body.

The only reason we, looking back, think "pedo" crime is because of the sexual wound, not any particular element in the staging, IMO.

the ligatures were staged to be sexual,it appears..a control type of thing...(but not done by an intruder,as they wanted it to seem..I'll never believe there was any intruder,as some want us to think that element of it was done by one).and then JR forgot to restage them when he restaged the body(wiping down,redressing and covering the wound).SO he had to lie about that when he 'found' her....one reason he wanted to find her himself,I believe,as I think he suddenly remembered at some point that morning,that he forgot to retie them tightly,to cover the sexual staging element of it,as he'd meant to.
I think the panicky sexual staging was done bf the RN was written.But even after it was written,for a bit,they still planned to get her out of the house.But in the end,it was just too risky.

 

[JMO8778]

I think there's an even simpler explanation, Ames.

Someone wanted to control the timing of the finding of the body. Remember the RN said the KN would call between 8 and 10 'tomorrow'? I'm firmly convinced that 'tomorrow' was a mistake, an oversight on the part of our hapless amateur stagers, who didn't foresee the confusion that would create--tomorrow the 26th? or tomorrow the 27th? What was supposed to happen was:

a) police arrive, find note
b) police set up 'kidnapper phone trace apparatus' like in the movies and wait for the call.
c) at 10:05 or so when no one has called, police do a thorough search of the house looking for 'clues'
d) sometime between 10:05 and noon JBR's body is discovered, allowing the R's to leave before the family members with medical training, Melinda and Stewart Long, show up.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) the police didn't do things the way "somebody" expected them to. As the time for the arrival of Melinda and Stewart drew near, JR became increasingly agitated, and finally went and 'found' the body, getting them out of the house just as the taxi with M & S inside drew up to the house.

And later, JR slips and says the body was discovered at "11:00;" right in the middle of the time he, or somebody, has designated as the proper time for JBR to be found, to keep everything moving smoothly.

could be...but a couple of things deter me from that...one is that Patsy set the note so she would be walking down the stairs and appear to 'find' it on the morning of the 26th....so picture Patsy coming down the stairs...she 'finds' the note,as she wants us to believe...and then she reads the part.."WE WILL CALL YOU TOMORROW"...ok,tomorrow to her,at that moment...is the 27th.I think they did it that way in order to give themselves a full day to carry out a plan,and to figure out what all they needed to do..such as getting her out of the house...b/c along with the other lines...'you will need to be rested'...that gives them an excuse to stay home..(other than getting the ransom money),and the 'if we monitor you getting the money sooner' line,gives them an excuse for being seen outside early..(to get her body out of the house).
I really think JR thought LE would find her not long after arrival,as did Patsy as well..(remember the 'help me Jesus' lines...she knew she was going to be needing Him soon ! )...and I think he planned on doing the same thing he tried to do at 1PM...get the heck out of state.He knew that plane would likely still be ready to go at 7am,as was previously planned.
AS for BR...he's a bit odd anyway,and I think they could have just told him JB was sick and close the door to her room,and he needed to stay away from her so he didn't get sick,too,and he couldn't have any friends over bc of her... get him playing w his new x mas toys,such as the nintendo,to occupy his mind...and he'd buy that.
At some point,they realized all of this was just too risky though...and reversed course...can't get JB out of the house? Ok...let LE find her,and then WE'LL leave instead !

 

[JMO8778]

Yeah, I am sure that she didn't want them just to wear to the Mall. She had a reason....having them cleaned would be it...IMO, too.

Yes, they totally blotched that whole collecting the clothes thing...I so totally agree...they should have been collected that night....not one year later, after they have had time to be cleaned a million times.

John's golf clubs....same story...IMO....he wanted them, because the bag contained evidence....JB's size 6 panties, for example.

I think something was in there too,but I also wonder if she could have been hit with one of the clubs..I wonder if anyone ever tried to match up the square part of the fracture to those type of golf clubs.

 

[trixie]

I think Dru's scenbario makes a lot of sense. I'm not 100% sure the original plan was to place the body outside, especially a distance away. While it would have made a kidnapping seem much more plausible, I can't see PR (even if she was the one responsible for the death of her daughter) agreeing to the dumping. However, I was amazed at the ease with which BOTH parents were able to leave their dead baby's body in that creepy house all alone when they left that night. AND JR's plan to scram outta town ASAP after the fact - it's almost as if now that she was dead, she didn't exist any more. JR couldn't leave his golf clubs behind in the house, PR "needed" her favorite black jeans that she wore that day, but their daughter's body? Nah...

Wait a minute, this doesn't make sense. PR would already have those favorite black jeans on if she put on the same clothes that she wore the day/night before. Is there another pair of jeans? PR should've walked out of the house that day in the ones she wore to the Whites party so they would already be in her possesion.

 

[JMO8778]

Wait a minute, this doesn't make sense. PR would already have those favorite black jeans on if she put on the same clothes that she wore the day/night before. Is there another pair of jeans? PR should've walked out of the house that day in the ones she wore to the Whites party so they would already be in her possesion.

she asked for them when in GA ,they were left in CO.,probably at the Fernie's house.

 

[Ames]

could be...but a couple of things deter me from that...one is that Patsy set the note so she would be walking down the stairs and appear to 'find' it on the morning of the 26th....so picture Patsy coming down the stairs...she 'finds' the note,as she wants us to believe...and then she reads the part.."WE WILL CALL YOU TOMORROW"...ok,tomorrow to her,at that moment...is the 27th.I think they did it that way in order to give themselves a full day to carry out a plan,and to figure out what all they needed to do..such as getting her out of the house...b/c along with the other lines...'you will need to be rested'...that gives them an excuse to stay home..(other than getting the ransom money),and the 'if we monitor you getting the money sooner' line,gives them an excuse for being seen outside early..(to get her body out of the house).
I really think JR thought LE would find her not long after arrival,as did Patsy as well..(remember the 'help me Jesus' lines...she knew she was going to be needing Him soon ! )...and I think he planned on doing the same thing he tried to do at 1PM...get the heck out of state.He knew that plane would likely still be ready to go at 7am,as was previously planned.
AS for BR...he's a bit odd anyway,and I think they could have just told him JB was sick and close the door to her room,and he needed to stay away from her so he didn't get sick,too,and he couldn't have any friends over bc of her... get him playing w his new x mas toys,such as the nintendo,to occupy his mind...and he'd buy that.
At some point,they realized all of this was just too risky though...and reversed course...can't get JB out of the house? Ok...let LE find her,and then WE'LL leave instead !

I agree...I think that they were planning to skip the COUNTRY though, with those Passports that Pammy made sure to get when she was taking out "funeral clothes".

Your last sentence....makes sense to me, I believe that's exactly what they had planned to do. I also believe that after her death, to them...she just never existed. So, it was easy to just plan a trip without her, or to leave her inside the house alone.