CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - *Arrest* #63

[gitana1]

I sure agree with the commitment to presumption of innocence and due process (which he is getting) but there's obviously more than that at play. If the poster had said, "yeah, I know Patrick and don't believe he'd do this" or "I know Krystal and hate her her guts because she's a manipulative liar", that would, at least, explain it to a degree. As it is, I never received an answer to that question (though I'm a few pages behind) so can only wonder why the poster thinks this way and I'd REALLY like to know.

Like I said, sometimes there are those who will almost always align with the defense on pretty every case. Not due to personal knowledge.

But we all bring our life experiences to these cases. And personalities. That’s the best I can come up with.

It is interesting to me. But I’m not going to let my blood pressure skyrocket over it!

 

[gitana1]

And to add, she believes PF threatened to harm her children and she did nothing. This is not the reaction of a loving, nurturing, protective mother.

It’s not. She’s not fit to be around any child. IMO.

 

[Safeguard]

Because who would clean up the mess caused when she herself was killed?

Regardless I think she probably has had moments of fear. But mostly she deluded herself that she’s the prize pig and the one PF wants. So she probably felt a level of delusional security from that.

Totally on the money! Which is why the tears on the stand, but none before then I'd bet.

And I think no one would feel you don't understand that pf is the murderer or the one on trial for that crime, merely because you mention the kk is a piece of chit, yet when I or others mention her culpability it is treated as if we are denying pf's guilt, and except for that one poster, no one is doing that. (that I can recall).

 

[Artis]

As i said the ranch hands were in the area. And your right one of them did say Ma came out on the porch to check the fire out. I am very sorry to say that you are wrong on this one Massguy And you are right Artis

Ha. At this point I don't know, anymore. The way it was phrased and the different reports leaves it open to interpretation. It's become like some Buddhist paradox at this point. I hope it's clearer to the jury that it it is here.

 

[Seattle1]

I would like to hear what PF's demeanor was when he joined his family on Thanksgiving. Has this already been asked and answered?

Yes -- it was asked of his brother SF2. He testified that PF showed up for dinner 2 hours late, and spent half of his time outside after he made dinner for himself and baby K. By all accounts - PF's relationship with his family is estranged so this odd behavior on a holiday is probably normal for them.

SF2 also indicated that PF parked his truck (presumably with tote in the truck bed) out of view. MOO

 

[Oregon]

Is it possible more texts would be released between PF & KB? I just can’t wrap my mind around this relationship. Would there be any evidence there as to mental abuse on his part?

Look up Teller County Cases of Interest. It is a list of the court documents. Click on them and you can read them. There is a lot of information about search warrants and the executed warrants. Interviews with some of the smaller players from Idaho and Colorado. Kk first interview where she lied and a following interview after she had lawyered up and had a deal. Some of the warrants give an indication of what is probably still to come in the trial.

 

[MyBelle]

I don't think anyone disagrees with you on this. Unfortunately, the only way to get her to testify against Patrick was the deal that was made. It's out of our hands. Personally, I think she belongs in jail right with him, and no one will ever convince me that she was so skeered of him that she drove down THREE times to attempt to kill Kelsey. She's a liar in many ways, but so far, what she has answered on the witness stand has been backed up by evidence.

Trust me, I'm not happy that she's a free woman this past year, nor am I happy that she could still be a free woman after her trial in December. Unfortunately, there's not a blessed thing that you, other posters here, and myself can do about it. I'm angry, too. Trust me. Very angry.

Two narcs were involved in Kelsey's murder. One was smart enough to ought the other. That's it in a nutshell, for me.

If you don't believe KK was "so skeered of him" that she drove down THREE times to attempt to kill Kelsey, why do you think the jury is going to believe it? A liar who has been given an incredible sweet incentive to lie is going to lie and KK has lied. There has been absolutely no evidence to back up her story that the condo was the crime scene and that the murder weapon was the ball bat. Nuthin. If she had kept that tooth she claims she found--and given it to LE--this would be a completely different trial. She didn't because she still wants PF to walk free.

Plus, both ranch hands have testified that PF told them the fire flames got too high and he had to put it out. Are they liars? If PF put out the flames, there is no way he allowed the fire to burn until morning, which is what KK has claimed he told her. Not for a minute do I believe she was afraid of PF. She was obsessed with him and obsessed with KB.

JMO

 

[gitana1]

Does anybody have any ideas of what would qualify as extreme aggravating factors in this case in order for KK to be sentenced to the whole three years?

Gitana?

They would have to be facts a jury found or could have found from evidence presented in her case or facts she admitted to when she pled. Such as deliberate cruelty. https://cases.justia.com/colorado/supreme-court/2018-16sc653.pdf?ts=1542645321

I don’t think it applies in her case.

 

[MassGuy]

If you don't believe KK was "so skeered of him" that she drove down THREE times to attempt to kill Kelsey, why do you think the jury is going to believe it? A liar who has been given an incredible sweet incentive to lie is going to lie and KK has lied. There has been absolutely no evidence to back up her story that the condo was the crime scene and that the murder weapon was the ball bat. Nuthin. If she had kept that tooth she claims she found--and given it to LE--this would be a completely different trial. She didn't because she still wants PF to walk free.

Plus, both ranch hands have testified that PF told them the fire flames got too high and he had to put it out. Are they liars? If PF put out the flames, there is no way he allowed the fire to burn until morning, which is what KK has claimed he told her. Not for a minute do I believe she was afraid of PF. She was obsessed with him and obsessed with KB.

JMO

This is patently false.

There has been absolutely no evidence to back up her story that the condo was the crime scene and that the murder weapon was the ball bat. Nuthin.

Evidence: He is caught on camera returning to the house, and spent approximately 2 hours there. This was a flat out lie on his part, and it is supported by cell phone data and video from a furniture store (which is not in dispute).

Blood was found under floorboards, behind couch cushions, on the fireplace, and on a baby gate. In particular, the couch cushions and fireplace having that blood on them, is something one would expect to see when the victim has suffered blunt force trauma.

The bathroom also lit up like a Christmas tree.

To further support the house being a crime scene, smudge marks were present to indicate cleaning.

We know KK was in that house, based on her knowledge of the crime scene. Her cell phone also put her in the area on the morning of the 24th, and this was the very thing that busted her in the first place.

Plus, both ranch hands have testified that PF told them the fire flames got too high and he had to put it out. Are they liars?

Again, false. The ranch hands testified that PF told them his mommy yelled at him for the fire getting too high. His remedy according to KK, was to add metal on top of the fire.

These ranch hands testified to removing metal from the scene.

She didn't because she still wants PF to walk free.

How could you possibly know that, and why would she want this monster to walk free?

Are you saying she has a death wish or something?

She was obsessed with him and obsessed with KB.

A case can be made for the former, but the latter is completely unsupported. Regardless, she’s not on trial, he is.

Because he bashed Kelsey’s face in with a baseball bat.

“Please stop.”

 

[gitana1]

If you don't believe KK was "so skeered of him" that she drove down THREE times to attempt to kill Kelsey, why do you think the jury is going to believe it? A liar who has been given an incredible sweet incentive to lie is going to lie and KK has lied. There has been absolutely no evidence to back up her story that the condo was the crime scene and that the murder weapon was the ball bat. Nuthin. If she had kept that tooth she claims she found--and given it to LE--this would be a completely different trial. She didn't because she still wants PF to walk free.

Plus, both ranch hands have testified that PF told them the fire flames got too high and he had to put it out. Are they liars? If PF put out the flames, there is no way he allowed the fire to burn until morning, which is what KK has claimed he told her. Not for a minute do I believe she was afraid of PF. She was obsessed with him and obsessed with KB.

JMO

Well that’s false. The evidence that the condo was the crime scene?

1. Kelsey was never seen leaving the condo alive after entering it on 11-22

2. The man who had told a friend he figured out a way to kill Kelsey entered the condo on that date and left with the baby.

3. He carried a tote big enough to hold a body, in his truck that day. After he left the condo the tote was seen by surveillance in a different position in his truck.

4. Blood was found under toilet at Kelsey’s house.

5. Kelsey’s family saw wipe marks around the house.

6. Kelsey’s phone travelled with PF away from the condo on the last day she was seen alive, after PF left the condo with the baby.

7. Kelsey testified to cleaning up a huge amount of blood all over the house. Which would exist if Kelsey had been beaten to death there. Independent evidence of that blood spatter will undoubtedly be presented at trial at a later date as the opening statements indicated blood stained floor boards and other blood was found in the living room.

 

[k-mac]

so an unrelated and yet sadly related note here. I was a little bit of testimony on Court Tv from one of the Teresa Sievers trials. I knew that she had been killed with a hammer but I was only aware of one man doing the well..hammering. Well, I was wrong, two men did that. So sad. Anyway, the first *** didn't think it would be hard to do..so he hit her in the back of the head with that hammer and guess what...she didn't fall down. She wasn't knocked out and...most terribly she could talk and recognoze him! She said, "why, why are you doing this?" He hit her twice more and of course she was not down or dead...so the other guy had to come in and hammer her, too.

So, if anyone thinks there is no way KB could be conscious or talk after being hit with a baseball bat by *** PF..well sadly, think again.

SO SAD

just shocking skydaze

a friend of mine was murdered slowly over a few hours with beatings round the head with a tyre iron. so very cruel.
her murderer pled out for manslaughter 10 years. money talks where I live.

someone else I know died from falling over drunk on a rock head first. one simple accidental blow.



the body is so resilient yet so frail.

 

[gitana1]

I kind of dread tomorrow. I don't know if I can handle too many more "bombshells". I put myself in the Berreth's place, and I just don't know how the father and brother can go everyday without wanting to deck Patrick- I am sure that they would love nothing more than to be able to do so. I give them credit. It broke my heart to read that Kelsey's Dad broke down when Baby K's photo was put up, while Krystal was on the stand.

I feel for her mother. Such a classy lady all throughout all of this. Edited to add- the entire Berreth family has been classy throughout all of this.

I guess with Thanksgiving coming up in a couple of weeks, it just hurts me to know that last year, unknown to the Berreth's, would be Kelsey's last holiday alive, before that brute murdered her. This has to be so tough, the trial at this time of year- not that any time is a good time, but damn, close to the anniversary of Kelsey's death? Two Thanksgivings in a row, ruined over that brute and his sidekick and many others, who could have stopped him from doing this.

May they all have a rotten Thanksgiving, all that knew about this and did nothing. May Kelsey's face appear in their minds all day long......as her family continues to grieve and always will.

It always seems like the kindest people are the ones killed.

 

[katydid23]

If you don't believe KK was "so skeered of him" that she drove down THREE times to attempt to kill Kelsey, why do you think the jury is going to believe it?

I think they will believe it because the cell phone will ping, showing she was actually there in Colorado when she claimed to be.
And we may hear from her Aunt, who went with her on the coffee delivery.
There is a lot of corroboration of other claims she has made, so I think the jury will tend to believe most of her testimony.

A liar who has been given an incredible sweet incentive to lie is going to lie and KK has lied.

She may have sprinkled in a few lies and a few inconsistencies. But many of the main points have been backed up by forensics and witnesses so far. I assume it will continue in that manner.

There has been absolutely no evidence to back up her story that the condo was the crime scene and that the murder weapon was the ball bat. Nuthin. If she had kept that tooth she claims she found--and given it to LE--this would be a completely different trial. She didn't because she still wants PF to walk free.

I don't think it matters if she can prove he used a bat. Maybe the lack of a body accounts for that failure. It doesn't really matter though.
There is plenty of solid evidence that the crime took place in the condo in the middle of Thanksgiving Day. Others have already listed it above.

Plus, both ranch hands have testified that PF told them the fire flames got too high and he had to put it out. Are they liars? If PF put out the flames, there is no way he allowed the fire to burn until morning, which is what KK has claimed he told her. Not for a minute do I believe she was afraid of PF. She was obsessed with him and obsessed with KB.
JMO

I think you got that wrong, about him putting out the fire completely. I guess we will hear more in the next day or two to help clarify that.

As for you final sentence, it is quite possible to be obsessed with someone and also afraid of them at times. Feelings are complex. People are complicated. That's why we discuss them here because they are fascinating creatures.

 

[gitana1]

I know the defense only has to cast reasonable doubt, not present another theory or culprit. But even if KK is lying about her motives or what she knew when, it still feels like if anything she was more involved than she admits. But nothing about her testimony, even if she's an evil liar, seems to take any blame off Patrick. Even going after her that she's only saying all this to get a sweetheart deal... well yeah, I feel like it's just a given that she's involved in this up to her eyeballs... even as an accomplice... but to Patrick. It in no way seems to absolve him.

The defense didn't seem to ask anything on cross examination about if she was in town the day of the murder, if she had touched the murder weapon, or anything along those lines that she was more involved with the actual murder.

I feel like the fact that she jumped to take a deal just shows that she was part of this and in big trouble, so would sing like a bird and tell them whatever they needed to convict him. But I personally don't feel like there's been any evidence to cast doubt on if PF did this or not or any other scenario. And if it was a hitman or 3rd party (Spoiler: it's not), then why wouldn't KK just point LE to them instead? I'm pretty sure they want to get the right person.

eta: The defense seems only to be attacking her credibility, highlighting that she has incentive to lie to get a plea deal. But they don't actually seem to be challenging or poking ANY holes in her testimony, evidence, timeline, etc.

That’s what shocked me about the cross.

And if we go back to the alternate suspect designation they failed to make, at the time I felt the failure showed they lacked evidence that would allow KK to be the killer.

The cross examination seems to bear that out.

 

[gitana1]

How's:

• jaw-dropper,
• jolt,
• stunner,
• surprise.
• shocker

I like jaw dropper.

 

[Artis]

That's an interesting debate, actually.
I totally see your point and agree with it, largely.

I would say that if you substitute the word, "Good," for "Love," though, then I do think that not only can "Good" fight "Evil," but "Good" has a moral imperative to fight "Evil" whenever and wherever the two encounter one another.

Good absolutely can prevail over Evil. Look at World Wars I and II.
The Good Guys won both of those battles.

On the personal front, though, I think you're absolutely right:
Good, decent people should never, ever entertain the belief that they can "change" a bad seed. It doesn't work that way.

Living among lambs doesn't "rub off" on wolves.
They don't start frolicking innocently within the fold.
The wolves just devour the lambs.
It's what predators do.

Good can't change Evil.
But it can fight it.
And it can win.

That's why my mantra throughout this whole case has been:

"Go Dan, Go!
You go get this evil monster."

JMO.

Pretty much but Dan's not changing evil, he's locking it up. I doubt he any illusions about "love".

 

[gitana1]

Unbelievable, the amount of evil scum demons walking amongst us. I always knew there was a good amount of domestic violence situations in years past. However, it wasn't until I became a member on here, that I saw that more low lifes existed, and they're from all walks of life.

It just makes me sick to see how many people get killed in such brutal manners. How in the heck can someone do such a thing, walk away, and live their lives like nothing happened? How can it not haunt them? How can you eat, sleep, watch sports, drink beer, go on vacation, whatever else a person does, and not have this haunt you every day?

How can they take such pleasure hurting and killing another, leaving many victims behind of these crimes- the families, friends, co-workers- many secondary victims to these crimes, their lives are altered forever, losing their loved one.

Do people no longer have souls or consciences? There's so many of them out there now, it's unbelievable. Back when I was growing up, when you heard of such a case, it shocked the entire country! Now it happens all over the country, daily!

No. Nothing has changed. There’s been no increase in such cases. We just have the internet now.

And when you were a kid there was likely a lot adults never told you about. Or that you didn’t pay attention to.

Evil has been around since man started creeping around the earth and hasn’t probably changed much.

I studied American culture as an American Studies major and tons of social and cultural history was part of that. Brutal crimes like this were just as rampant all over big cities and small towns and rural areas in the 1700’s-1980’s as they are now.

 

[MyBelle]

Well that’s false. The evidence that the condo was the crime scene?

1. Kelsey was never seen leaving the condo alive after entering it on 11-22

2. The man who had told a friend he figured out a way to kill Kelsey entered the condo on that date and left with the baby.

3. He carried a tote big enough to hold a body, in his truck that day. After he left the condo the tote was seen by surveillance in a different position in his truck.

4. Blood was found under toilet at Kelsey’s house.

5. Kelsey’s family saw wipe marks around the house.

6. Kelsey’s phone travelled with PF away from the condo on the last day she was seen alive, after PF left the condo with the baby.

7. Kelsey testified to cleaning up a huge amount of blood all over the house. Which would exist if Kelsey had been beaten to death there. Independent evidence of that blood spatter will undoubtedly be presented at trial at a later date as the opening statements indicated blood stained floor boards and other blood was found in the living room.

1. Where is the evidence as to when, date and time, KB left the condo?

2. Is the baby dead? It is fact not in dispute that PF picked up the child. Was PF seen going in and out of the condo with the child on Nov. 22? I missed it. Please link.

3. The tote was seen in PF's truck. Never seen going in or out of the condo, ever.

4. Blood WAS found on the toilet and other places in the bathroom. So was the DNA from an unknown male. How, exactly is that proof PF was the killer?

5. Kelsey's family did see wipe marks in an area that had been extensively tested as a crime scene by LE. Those wipe marks were there when LE processed the crime scene and they didn't notice. How do wipe marks point to PF's guilt of murder?

6. Kelsey's phone did travel according to LE. But in a rural region with few cell towers, that isn't proof the phone was in the hands of PF or that KB was dead at that point. How is that evidence she was dead at that point? I do believe there was at least one 310 second call exchanged between KB and PF. Please provide proof she was dead at that time or that a third-party didn't have control of her phone at that time.

7. KK did testify she cleaned up a large amount of blood. She also testified she left clues for LE yet she didn't mention those clues to the FBI when they questioned her and K-9 animals didn't pick up on the evidence inside the living room.

You seem confident that there will be independent of evidence of blood spatter, etc., presented at trial. That's great but I'm still waiting for it before I pass judgment. I guess I'm just a silly American who believes in the right to due process and a fair trial.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

I think they will believe it because the cell phone will ping, showing she was actually there in Colorado when she claimed to be.
And we may hear from her Aunt, who went with her on the coffee delivery.
There is a lot of corroboration of other claims she has made, so I think the jury will tend to believe most of her testimony.



She may have sprinkled in a few lies and a few inconsistencies. But many of the main points have been backed up by forensics and witnesses so far. I assume it will continue in that manner.




I don't think it matters if she can prove he used a bat. Maybe the lack of a body accounts for that failure. It doesn't really matter though.
There is plenty of solid evidence that the crime took place in the condo in the middle of Thanksgiving Day. Others have already listed it above.





I think you got that wrong, about him putting out the fire completely. I guess we will hear more in the next day or two to help clarify that.

As for you final sentence, it is quite possible to be obsessed with someone and also afraid of them at times. Feelings are complex. People are complicated. That's why we discuss them here because they are fascinating creatures.

You don't think it matters if the DA can't prove the murder weapon? I disagree. There also has been no forensic evidence that the condo was a crime scene.

I also disagree that KK was afraid of PF. There is no evidence she was afraid of him and plenty of evidence she was not. I also doubt the DA cares if the jury believes KK. I think he wants her locked up just as tight as PF will be.

JMO

 

[dixiegirl1035]

MOO

1 piece of circumstantial evidence = possible Reasonable Doubt. (Circumstantial evidence, also called indirect evidence, requires that an inference be made between the evidence and the conclusion to be drawn from it... which I think requires 2nd or 3rd level thinking)

1+1=2

1+1+1=3

2+2=4

1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 (statistically a plethora of circumstantial evidence put together to infer the odds of all of these things happening) = Guilty, Beyond A Reasonable Doubt.

I guess that is why we saw in the voir dire that they asked can you do critical thinking. If somebody cannot do critical thinking, they cannot put two and two together, and all the circumstantial evidence, and put it together.

Many of us here do that with many cases, but seriously, that is what we heard in the media reports that the prosecution was asking the jurors if they were critical thinkers. Not everybody has the capability to do that even though most folks can do it easily? They know that some individuals just cannot do such it appears. The danger being though, if someone defined themselves as such, but in reality, they are not.

The prosecution recognizes such, and hopefully got rid of those during voir dire.

MOO