IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #2

[sl222]

I think the attorney MW is just doing his job. And if Chloe's parents retained criminal attorneys right away in this matter it was just as a prudent precaution in this serious matter because they were asked to go in for questioning. They could have been questioned about whether they knew if the GF had had anything to drink. This was maybe a short stroll for the GF and Chloe around this area. You wouldn't think something could go wrong.

All the early decisions took place when the family was in shock and also far from home. They also had another child to consider and had to suddenly get everyone home - 2 sets of grandparents, the parents, the son, and to get Chloe home and plan her funeral - which they could not even do at that point. They had only boarded the ship to set out on this cruise a few hours before all this happened.

The story being put forth as well as the threat of the lawsuit, all comes from the family trying to make sense of this and survive the unthinkable. MW saying the story about the banging on windows is info that was given to him by the family. He's representing them so he has to follow their lead and do what is in their best interest. I don't think the family is out for a payday; they would like to believe this happened due to some fault other than with the grandfather. They were still in shock when they went on tv; they haven't appeared on tv since then.

--Edited to add: Well, it is true that MW probably doesn't get paid without a successful lawsuit (?) but in representing anyone he does continue to be known as a go-to attorney for lawsuits against cruise lines. I'm not trying to debate his motives in this post but yes, it's a whole topic in itself about suing cruise lines and how this particular case isn't the cruise line's fault, but could negatively impact the industry and cruise-goers in a lot of ways. ---end of added text.

I agree that the video(s) will show exactly what happened and that even if the parents do not choose to see it, then MW will give them at least some info on it, if not a description of what it shows. Btw it seems like some people think a video will be like a movie where you see the entire fall, but of course each film is from just one angle and the videos that matter (as far as fault is concerned) are the ones at the window. (But yes any video is going to be horrific to watch.)

I agree that the family will ultimately have unbearable anger toward the GF whether they see the actual video themselves or not.

Like it has been mentioned, a person who caused an unthinkable act that injured or killed someone may later minimize or deny their fault - probably because most people can't survive that amount of guilt without some kind of mental shield like this protecting them from living in constant despair. (Not that it's right; I'm just saying that it might be a human response.)

The reason I've always thought the GF did have alcohol is because that's the only thing that can explain him acting so ridiculously (playing a dangerous "game"). It may have all happened really fast - otherwise maybe a bystander might have stepped in - but it seems like the one thing that makes sense is that he had her out of the window - as described by the police - that's the reason she lost her life. Otherwise she never would have fallen except on to the floor.

Prayers for the family; probably the hardest part for them in terms of going on with their lives, in addition to their own suffering, is what this has done to the older brother. This poor child has to live with knowing about this awful event. I don't know how the parents are managing. It is so sad; I hope they will be able to get away from this whole thing and find peace.

 

[al66pine]

Videos? How/Why Hold Chloe Out the Window, Alcohol?

... video(s) will show exactly what happened .... each film is from just one angle and the videos that matter (as far as fault is concerned) are the ones at the window....
I've always thought the GF did have alcohol is because that's the only thing that can explain him acting so ridiculously (playing a dangerous "game").... had her out of the window .... Otherwise she never would have fallen except on to the floor....

@sl222 sbm bbm
Videos?
Likely imo ship's vid cams are positioned to include overlapping views, so there will be two or more views of G'father & Chloe on Deck 11 from different angles at critical moments. What will be shown by ship's compiled vids of G'father, from embarkation to Chloe's fall? Walking steadily? Slowly? Briskly? Stiffly? Limping? Maybe vid from other sec cam's around the port, pre-boarding? Any bar-hopping along the way? Plus passengers' still pix & vids of G'father?

How/Why Hold Chloe Out the Window? Alcohol?
Consuming alcohol is one possible explanation for poor judgment of 'playing game' & holding her out the window. Or plain old poor judgment re safety issues (as exhibited by tickets for failing to use seat belts).

A few other explanations have been offered as possible contributing factors, such as a medical event, fainting, drug side effect, tripping, etc. But if G'father had been holding Chloe, w one or both arms, at waist level or resting on hip, imo she would not have been high enough to have fallen thru window. And when tripping, falling, fainting, a person holding something would tend to drop it (down), not to throw it up in the air (and out the window). Especially not a toddler. How much would Chloe weigh?

Seems imo G'father either
--- was 'playing a game' deliberately moving/holding her outside the window or
--- stood or sat her on rail or window sill/frame itself and failed to keep hold of her, failed to prevent fall.
Poor judgment either way, 100% sober or drunk as a skunk/dog/lord/sailor.
jmo

 

[mickey2942]

What type of penalty is appropriate in this situation? If you are the District Attorney, and you decided to charge Anello, I couldn't find the exact charge...

What would be the recommendation for penalty?

 

[Midwestmom2019]

What type of penalty is appropriate in this situation? If you are the District Attorney, and you decided to charge Anello, I couldn't find the exact charge...

What would be the recommendation for penalty?

Not just a fine and community service. Leaving time spent behind bars as the lead.
Yes, plenty of sad folks saying he’ll suffer rest of his life. No need to incarcerate him.
The threat of punishment keeps plenty of people in line.
What does the PR law say?
If PR laws allow it, time wise, how’s day for day? Every day Chloe was alive is every day SA needs his life cut short. And if he dies in jail? Well, what do I know....

 

[al66pine]

Puerto Rico Statute, Negligent Homicide & Penalty

What type of penalty is appropriate in this situation? If you are the District Attorney, and you decided to charge Anello, I couldn't find the exact charge...
What would be the recommendation for penalty?

@mickey2942 From post 14 on this thread. Again, if anyone has correction or clarification, pls post.

Negligent Homicide & Penalty Statutes in Puerto Rico
§ 4737. Negligent homicide
Any person who causes the death of another through negligence shall incur a misdemeanor, but shall receive the penalty established for a fourth degree felony.*

This may help understand the PR law. PR statute is in black; [facts of the case in green].
§ 4737. Negligent homicide
Any person [G’father]
who causes [loses hold of toddler]
the death [impact on ground/dock]
of another [Chloe]
through negligence [holding toddler outside the window/on the window frame, at a height of ~115 feet over the ground/dock onto which she would fall, if he lost his grip of her]
shall incur a misdemeanor, but shall receive the penalty established for a fourth degree felony.

"§ 4694. Applicable penalties
The penalties established for natural persons by this Code are established according to the classification of the degree of the offense for which the person was convicted, as follows:
(e) Fourth degree felony. — Entails a punishment of imprisonment for a fixed term in natural years which shall not be less than six (6) months and one (1) day, nor more than three (3) years. In such case, the person may be considered for parole by the Parole Board upon having served fifty percent (50%) of the term of imprisonment imposed." bbm

^ Subchapter I. Murder and Homicide

 

[al66pine]

PR Negligent Homicide Penalty

.... What does the PR law say?
If PR laws allow it, time wise, how’s day for day? ....

@Midwestmom2019 bbm sbm
"What does the PR law say?" <----I understood that to be one of the poster's questions.
If you're finding different info re PR statutes on NegHom & Penalty than per posts 14 and 88, I'd welcome clarification, correction. Ditto, possible interps offered there, mine could be wrong. TiA

I learn something new here every time I log on. What a fabulous forum.

 

[neesaki]

Videos? How/Why Hold Chloe Out the Window, Alcohol?
@sl222 sbm bbm
Videos?
Likely imo ship's vid cams are positioned to include overlapping views, so there will be two or more views of G'father & Chloe on Deck 11 from different angles at critical moments. What will be shown by ship's compiled vids of G'father, from embarkation to Chloe's fall? Walking steadily? Slowly? Briskly? Stiffly? Limping? Maybe vid from other sec cam's around the port, pre-boarding? Any bar-hopping along the way? Plus passengers' still pix & vids of G'father?

How/Why Hold Chloe Out the Window? Alcohol?
Consuming alcohol is one possible explanation for poor judgment of 'playing game' & holding her out the window. Or plain old poor judgment re safety issues (as exhibited by tickets for failing to use seat belts).

A few other explanations have been offered as possible contributing factors, such as a medical event, fainting, drug side effect, tripping, etc. But if G'father had been holding Chloe, w one or both arms, at waist level or resting on hip, imo she would not have been high enough to have fallen thru window. And when tripping, falling, fainting, a person holding something would tend to drop it (down), not to throw it up in the air (and out the window). Especially not a toddler. How much would Chloe weigh?

Seems imo G'father either
--- was 'playing a game' deliberately moving/holding her outside the window or
--- stood or sat her on rail or window sill/frame itself and failed to keep hold of her, failed to prevent fall.
Poor judgment either way, 100% sober or drunk as a skunk/dog/lord/sailor.
jmo

Not to mention, why would a man his age hold his toddler “best friend” out of a cruise ship window? Im sorry to say, but IMO, this is some sick stuff going on here. “Normal “ people don’t do this kind of thing. I do realize that “normal” is a relatively subjective term, but there is a continuum, and the actions of this man are off the chart. IMO

 

[neesaki]

Not just a fine and community service. Leaving time spent behind bars as the lead.
Yes, plenty of sad folks saying he’ll suffer rest of his life. No need to incarcerate him.
The threat of punishment keeps plenty of people in line.
What does the PR law say?
If PR laws allow it, time wise, how’s day for day? Every day Chloe was alive is every day SA needs his life cut short. And if he dies in jail? Well, what do I know....

Good post, Midwestmom. :thumbs up:

 

[mickey2942]

Puerto Rico Statute, Negligent Homicide & Penalty
@mickey2942 From post 14 on this thread. Again, if anyone has correction or clarification, pls post.

Negligent Homicide & Penalty Statutes in Puerto Rico
§ 4737. Negligent homicide
Any person who causes the death of another through negligence shall incur a misdemeanor, but shall receive the penalty established for a fourth degree felony.*

This may help understand the PR law. PR statute is in black; [facts of the case in green].
§ 4737. Negligent homicide
Any person [G’father]
who causes [loses hold of toddler]
the death [impact on ground/dock]
of another [Chloe]
through negligence [holding toddler outside the window/on the window frame, at a height of ~115 feet over the ground/dock onto which she would fall, if he lost his grip of her]
shall incur a misdemeanor, but shall receive the penalty established for a fourth degree felony.

"§ 4694. Applicable penalties
The penalties established for natural persons by this Code are established according to the classification of the degree of the offense for which the person was convicted, as follows:
(e) Fourth degree felony. — Entails a punishment of imprisonment for a fixed term in natural years which shall not be less than six (6) months and one (1) day, nor more than three (3) years. In such case, the person may be considered for parole by the Parole Board upon having served fifty percent (50%) of the term of imprisonment imposed." bbm

^ Subchapter I. Murder and Homicide

Thank you. Interesting. Six months at the least. It is not federal, so he would have to do his time in a Puerto Rican prison. Wow.

 

[al66pine]

PR Correctional Facilities. Space for G'father, If Convicted?

Thank you. Interesting. Six months at the least. It is not federal, so he would have to do his time in a Puerto Rican prison. Wow.

@mickey2942 With 12,500 inmates as of 2016, Puerto Rico has 33 state prisons, per Puerto Rico Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation - Wikipedia.

Puerto Rico Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation (in Spanish) <--- official PR website

 

[sl222]

Videos? How/Why Hold Chloe Out the Window, Alcohol?
@sl222 sbm bbm
Videos?
Likely imo ship's vid cams are positioned to include overlapping views, so there will be two or more views of G'father & Chloe on Deck 11 from different angles at critical moments. What will be shown by ship's compiled vids of G'father, from embarkation to Chloe's fall? Walking steadily? Slowly? Briskly? Stiffly? Limping? Maybe vid from other sec cam's around the port, pre-boarding? Any bar-hopping along the way? Plus passengers' still pix & vids of G'father?

How/Why Hold Chloe Out the Window? Alcohol?
Consuming alcohol is one possible explanation for poor judgment of 'playing game' & holding her out the window. Or plain old poor judgment re safety issues (as exhibited by tickets for failing to use seat belts).

A few other explanations have been offered as possible contributing factors, such as a medical event, fainting, drug side effect, tripping, etc. But if G'father had been holding Chloe, w one or both arms, at waist level or resting on hip, imo she would not have been high enough to have fallen thru window. And when tripping, falling, fainting, a person holding something would tend to drop it (down), not to throw it up in the air (and out the window). Especially not a toddler. How much would Chloe weigh?

Seems imo G'father either
--- was 'playing a game' deliberately moving/holding her outside the window or
--- stood or sat her on rail or window sill/frame itself and failed to keep hold of her, failed to prevent fall.
Poor judgment either way, 100% sober or drunk as a skunk/dog/lord/sailor.
jmo

Agree. They've said there are multiple angles and you're right, there's even more of the before-events. When you mention the other possible contributing factors, it strikes me that the attorney MW would have been wise not to state any scenario as what happened. He didn't mention anything such as slipping, eyesight, etc.

Since SA has a documented record of repeated citations for not wearing a seatbelt, when most people would start wearing their seatbelt for sure after the 2nd citation if not the first... that speaks to carelessness and maybe lack of maturity or at best a tendency to ignore safety rules. If that was already his personality, then alcohol only made that much worse. I really don't fathom what he could have been thinking even if he was inebriated. It takes me back to the vehement statement the mother made on TV "Sam has never, ever put our kids in danger." That's the "sensitive issue" perhaps past and present.

Yes, all the sad people who don't want to see GF suffer more.... hmmm, so would they then entrust their toddler to his care now? No, I hope not. And he shouldn't want anyone to either, imo.

There is only one thing for a family to do if they really want to move on from such a tragedy and that is to just stay private and forget about crusades when it's their own kin's actions that caused this. They have a hard enough road. People deeply sympathize with the family, at least they have that comfort. If they proceed with a lawsuit then they're losing that support. I hope they know how upset people are about what happened to them, because it's about as upsetting as it gets, even for people who've never met them.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Puerto Rico Statute, Negligent Homicide & Penalty
@mickey2942 From post 14 on this thread. Again, if anyone has correction or clarification, pls post.

Negligent Homicide & Penalty Statutes in Puerto Rico
§ 4737. Negligent homicide
Any person who causes the death of another through negligence shall incur a misdemeanor, but shall receive the penalty established for a fourth degree felony.*

This may help understand the PR law. PR statute is in black; [facts of the case in green].
§ 4737. Negligent homicide
Any person [G’father]
who causes [loses hold of toddler]
the death [impact on ground/dock]
of another [Chloe]
through negligence [holding toddler outside the window/on the window frame, at a height of ~115 feet over the ground/dock onto which she would fall, if he lost his grip of her]
shall incur a misdemeanor, but shall receive the penalty established for a fourth degree felony.

"§ 4694. Applicable penalties
The penalties established for natural persons by this Code are established according to the classification of the degree of the offense for which the person was convicted, as follows:
(e) Fourth degree felony. — Entails a punishment of imprisonment for a fixed term in natural years which shall not be less than six (6) months and one (1) day, nor more than three (3) years. In such case, the person may be considered for parole by the Parole Board upon having served fifty percent (50%) of the term of imprisonment imposed." bbm

^ Subchapter I. Murder and Homicide

Fits my idea. If Chloe was about 18 mos. old, day for day, 4th degree felony is not less than 6 mos and not more than three years. Parole after serving half the time.
So, SA should be sentenced to the max: 3 years. And he could get paroled after a year and a half.
Perfect.

 

[mickey2942]

Fits my idea. If Chloe was about 18 mos. old, day for day, 4th degree felony is not less than 6 mos and not more than three years. Parole after serving half the time.
So, SA should be sentenced to the max: 3 years. And he could get paroled after a year and a half.
Perfect.

Well, he can work on learning to speak Spanish. Which is more than Chloe will ever have the opportunity to do.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I'm glad that SA has been charged in Chloe's death, but I haven't considered whether or not he should serve time in PR prison. What is actually more important to me is that he's found guilty and that the family accept the fact that Grandpa's reckless actions caused Chloe's death - not an obviously open window on a cruise ship. SA put Chloe in danger when he lifted her up to a window that was far beyond her reach. I don't believe that Grandpa thought the window was closed. He chose that window for a clear view of the port and wanted Chloe to see the view, as well. If he was playing some sort of stupid game while trying to scare her, that makes his choice even worse!

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

That explains it. "Acto de juegos" is a Spanish literal translation of "game act". It has no meaning in Spanish but in Puerto Rico, where they are bilingual, the reporter was using "Spanglish"

I think it means "fooling around" like in "horseplay".

 

[Indy_ar]

I think it means "fooling around" like in "horseplay".

Not in Spanish, take it from a Spanish speaking native that aced in Spanish . It is really Spanglish. While here in the US, I have seen many instances of Spanglish from Hispanics and I am sure that PR being a US territory with bilingual education has similar instances.

 

[Kakidoll]

While i don't think a long prison sentence is warranted, i think one SHOULD be imposed. I'd be MUCH more lenient if he just told the truth from the beginning and admitted guilt. I don't think ANY of this would be happening had he done such. I'm so tired of everyone suing the cruise line and other large companies for a stubbed toe and looking for a payday, instead of things THEY need to take responsibility for. The blame game has gotten more and more out of hand. I'm VERY glad he was confronted on this and now will face judgement legally.

 

[oviedo]

Not just a fine and community service. Leaving time spent behind bars as the lead.
Yes, plenty of sad folks saying he’ll suffer rest of his life. No need to incarcerate him.
The threat of punishment keeps plenty of people in line.
What does the PR law say?
If PR laws allow it, time wise, how’s day for day? Every day Chloe was alive is every day SA needs his life cut short. And if he dies in jail? Well, what do I know....

ITA - there needs to be jail time if it's proven he was negligent and playing a game of catch with her out the window - which I do think he was. The video proof will be chilling IMO.

 

[al66pine]

What if Vic & Perp were Not Related?

....vehement statement the mother made on TV "Sam has never, ever put our kids in danger." That's the "sensitive issue" perhaps past and present.
Yes, all the sad people who don't want to see GF suffer more.... hmmm, so would they then entrust their toddler to his care now? No, I hope not. And he shouldn't want anyone to either, imo....

@sl222 bbm sbm Excellent point. Reading about crim (or non crim) cases, I ask myself what if --
1) Vic was someone else, G'pa still the Perp?
What if G'pa had befriended a passenger-couple & picked up their toddler w permission, and this had happened? Would anyone say -
a) oh, he looooooves children, just a little slip up, cannot blame him?
b) parents had no reason to trust him, never should have let G'pa pick up toddler? Blame them?
c) parents had no reason not to trust him, just fine to let him pick up toddler? All G'pa's fault?
d) what if this had happened 30 sec after G'pa picked her up? 30 min? What if they had been at same seating, all meals, hung out for 3 days of cruise? Make a difference?
e) other variations?

2) Perp was someone else, Chloe Still the Vic?
What if Chloe's parents befriended a passenger, said okay to picking her up, this happened. Would anyone say -
a) oh, dude looooves children, just a litle slip up, cannot blame him?
b) Chloe's parents had no reason to trust him, never should have let dude pick up toddler? Blame them?
c) Chloe's parents had no reason not to trust him, just fine to let him pick up toddler? All dude's fault?
d) what if this had happened 30 sec after dude picked her up? 30 min? What if they had been at same seating, all meals, hung out for 3 days of cruise? Make a difference?
e) other variations?

Just thinking of case April 2019, Mall of American, in MN, man, a total stranger picked up 5 y/o, NO permission, tossed over waist high rail, down 3 floors. Boy survived.

 

[al66pine]

Long Prison Sentence. Warranted or Not? Why?

While i don't think a long prison sentence is warranted, i think one SHOULD be imposed. I'd be MUCH more lenient if he just told the truth from the beginning and admitted guilt....

@Kakidoll sbm bbm ^ Not following the line of thinking. Seems, if long sentence is not warranted, it should not be imposed.

Is post saying because of G'father's actions after Chloe's death (denies culpability "I thought there was glass" and/or presumably not guilty plea), he should get longer sentence?
Or maybe saying something else altogether? TiA.