CA - 3 dead, including gunman, Saugus High School, Santa Clarita, 14 Nov 2019

[Dawookie]

And the shooter has passed away

2 dead, several hurt after gunman opens fire at Saugus High School in Santa Clarita

Paramedics initially transported six patients to hospitals, including the suspect, who was listed in "grave condition" from his self-inflicted gunshot wound. The gunman passed away Friday afternoon.

 

[Falling Down]

If it was one of his father's guns, that could open up a legal can of worms for his mother in the end because of the state laws. With the way the law is written, it's kind of hard to what may happen.

On another note, the unregistered firearms is interesting. Are they guns that were bought before background checks started, were they 80% guns, were they bought out of state private party or were they old guns passed down through the family that were bought before serial numbers were required?

I wonder, too.

I don't know when the father separated from the military, his military background, etc., which may play into the where the gun came from.

I do know that the NICS database for gun purchases is flawed, at any rate according to the article ATF are looking into it.

Could be the .45 was acquired by the father during military service, maybe it was inherited, or ? Brought from another state?

 

[NJSleuth91]

If it was one of his father's guns, that could open up a legal can of worms for his mother in the end because of the state laws. With the way the law is written, it's kind of hard to what may happen.

On another note, the unregistered firearms is interesting. Are they guns that were bought before background checks started, were they 80% guns, were they bought out of state private party or were they old guns passed down through the family that were bought before serial numbers were required?

Is it possible that they were "unregistered" because they were his father's guns and not re-registered under a living person's name after he died?

 

[Dawookie]

Is it possible that they were "unregistered" because they were his father's guns and not re-registered under a living person's name after he died?

Im not sure what the deal is. In the article I linked above, LASD and the ATF both said six guns were recovered and all six were registered to his dad so not sure whats going on in all honesty. Seems like the local media are all reporting something different and its hard to get the full story

 

[Dawookie]

I wonder, too.

I don't know when the father separated from the military, his military background, etc., which may play into the where the gun came from.

I do know that the NICS database for gun purchases is flawed, at any rate according to the article ATF are looking into it.

Could be the .45 was acquired by the father during military service, maybe it was inherited, or ? Brought from another state?

The article that you posted has been updated and it states that theyre trying to figure out if the handgun was built by the father. Theyre saying its an unusual gun design which makes me lean towards something he built himself as all the 80% .45 handguns ive ever seen are based on the 1911 or the Glock

 

[10ofRods]

Washington Post reports that the suspect is deceased.

 

[mickey2942]

It is really interesting how fast these situations go down, and end as quickly.

The only real intervention to ending these ongoing school shootings is either mandatory metal detectors, screening every single student who comes to school, and also changing the physical structures of schools, with one entry into the school. No more "open" campuses.

Or Congress does something more permanent. Otherwise, there is really no other solution.

 

[MaryG12]

Totally agree.
This young man came from an UNSTABLE family:
2015- his father was arrested for domestic violence/battery on his mother. Father was
reported to have alcohol problem, was big game hunter, owned numerous guns.

2016- His mother filed for full custody of 3 children.
2017- His father died suddenly from heart attack.
2019- Shooter decides to commit suicide on his
16th birthday. His internal anger and disrespect
for other and life cause him to take out others.
He was probably depressed.
His problems all started and ended within his chaotic
family life.
No mystery here.
MOO

And I will have to agree with you here.

Lack of any true father figure present.

Adam Lanza's parents were divorced and he lived with his mother who indulged him.

Nikolas Cruz's adoptive father died when he was only 5.

Maybe most importantly - a father figure can teach a son how to handle bullies without reacting.
Speaking as someone who experienced bullying in junior high (not high school) and adult bullying, it can be done without the use of guns or even physical contact.

My guess is this: we have some guys (not all) of a certain generation who do not know how to handle bullying or rejection.

 

[mickey2942]

And I will have to agree with you here.

Lack of any true father figure present.

Adam Lanza's parents were divorced and he lived with his mother who indulged him.

Nikolas Cruz's adoptive father died when he was only 5.

Maybe most importantly - a father figure can teach a son how to handle bullies without reacting.
Speaking as someone who experienced bullying in junior high (not high school) and adult bullying, it can be done without the use of guns or even physical contact.

My guess is this: we have some guys (not all) of a certain generation who do not know how to handle bullying or rejection.

We can't say that being raised in a single parent home is related to causation for school shootings, by "Cherry Picking" selected school shooters. The school shooters from Columbine had both biological parents in the home. Which shoots the theory.

 

[NJSleuth91]

And I will have to agree with you here.

Lack of any true father figure present.

I'm pretty sure his dad's alcoholism and domestic violence were greater contributing factors than his being absent.

Adam Lanza's parents were divorced and he lived with his mother who indulged him.

Or from an alternate perspective, he systematically isolated and emotionally abused her (escalating into physical abuse with her murder), she had a lack of a support system and other resources, especially due to gaps in the system after he left school, and she was doing the best she could to manage the situation and try to avoid being abused.

I have to say, I've never seen any person get victim-blamed for their own murder as much as Nancy Lanza has been.

Nikolas Cruz's adoptive father died when he was only 5.

Nikolas Cruz also had a host of severe issues from before he was adopted, and his biological family turned out to have a long history of criminal behavior, indicating a possible genetic component. I think I read his biological mom also used drugs during all her pregnancies or something.

 

[Trino]

Most definitely the age and lack of brain maturation play a part. It never made sense to me to give drugs to teenagers already struggling that may make their issues even worse being on them or stopping taking them. And then when they unfortunately crack and get set off, everything else is looked at besides what drugs they were on or had just come off of.

The money issue is a huge thing and another angle that doesn't get talked about. Admittedly, this is the first time I've seen it brought up and it made me think. How many of these kids are actually in the schools?

Here's your answer. Ensuring Your Child is Supported at School | NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness

 

[Falling Down]

I'm pretty sure his dad's alcoholism and domestic violence were greater contributing factors than his being absent.



Or from an alternate perspective, he systematically isolated and emotionally abused her (escalating into physical abuse with her murder), she had a lack of a support system and other resources, especially due to gaps in the system after he left school, and she was doing the best she could to manage the situation and try to avoid being abused.

I have to say, I've never seen any person get victim-blamed for their own murder as much as Nancy Lanza has been.



Nikolas Cruz also had a host of severe issues from before he was adopted, and his biological family turned out to have a long history of criminal behavior, indicating a possible genetic component. I think I read his biological mom also used drugs during all her pregnancies or something.

Cruz should have been pulled from that school for his bad behavior. Yet he was there for most of his HS time, then came back later to shoot up the school.

I blame some of the school systems for not keeping the kids safe from these monsters.

 

[Trino]

Created from outside the US? How awful that someone would do this.
"The sheriff said a biography on an Instagram account possibly belonging to the teen contained the posting: "Saugus, have fun at school tomorrow." The message was discovered Thursday morning after the shooting.

It was later determined to not belong to the teen after working with Facebook overnight, Wegener said. Authorities couldn't determine where it originated, but said it was not created in the U.S. " Sheriff Says Shooting Was Planned, But Victims Were Random at Saugus High

 

[NJSleuth91]

Cruz should have been pulled from that school for his bad behavior. Yet he was there for most of his HS time, then came back later to shoot up the school.

I blame some of the school systems for not keeping the kids safe from these monsters.

With Nikolas Cruz, everyone knew it was coming for years. Even the staff at the school to some extent. He terrorized his neighborhood and was openly violent to both people and animals for many, many years. His neighbors said the police were over at his house at least once a week.

But I don't think there was anything they could do about it beyond what they did. There wasn't anywhere else to put him. There aren't very many long-term, or even short-term inpatient programs in the US anymore. It also seems that there has been a rise in school shootings, homelessness, incarceration of mentally ill people, etc. since deinstitutionalization, because nothing was ever created to replace the institutions that were closed.

However as far as we know, Nathaniel Berhow did not have such obvious warning signs. I read somewhere that he said gave some indication about wanting to commit violence, but I'm not sure if that was accurate. So far there's no indication he had a history of violent behavior. In his case I think it was likely more an issue of that the warning signs went overlooked because nobody was really looking out for him and seeing if he was ok, or nobody knew what warning signs to look for.

 

[Trino]

That and look at the ages. We're talking about brains which have not fully formed yet, plus the other changes which happen on the transition into adulthood.

Another issue I have is the 3 stages American public schools went through in the last 30 years, the last being No Child Left Behind (NCLB). I was in high school when the first stage happened, the schools were forced to accept students who would have been institutionalized by government agencies for various reasons, and/or had been in programs run by non-profits. Nowadays, they just take anybody, and it's obvious why: There's a lot of money to be made in public education, safety be damned.

State funding is determined by enrollment. Enough said. As a former teacher, I recall an obvious, obvious mentally ill girl who was traumatized by war. She was court ordered to be in school - lasted about a week. Stood up in class and just moaned and moaned, yelled out nonsense words, walked around the room.

 

[kaen]

. Nowadays, they just take anybody, and it's obvious why: There's a lot of money to be made in public education, safety be damned.

SBM for focus. I don't know of any principal in my area who would prefer to NOT take a child who is ill-suited or unable to participate. The strain on resources and the process of having the child leave the school is arduous. The laws that changed the system were not ones that most public educators went seeking. It was lawmakers and politicians who ushered in the changes. Many public schools have certainly suffered because the amount of money they get per pupil doesn't always include enough funds to take of the students with disabilities. While I have seen only a handful of districts that have made it work, the usual scenario is that students with disabilities usually need more services and take up some of the per pupil monies of other students, especially students with emotional disabling conditions.

All that said, in this case, the young man was smart and didn't have identified issues. I think it is important to look at who he was rather than thinking there is a one size fits all way that we can see the public system screwing up once again.

 

[kaen]

"There's nothing really that stands out (with the suspect). He wasn't a loner. Wasn't socially awkward. Was involved in student activities. Student athlete," Los Angeles County Sheriff Alex Villanueva told CNN "New Day." "This is kind of out of the blue, shocking pretty much everyone who knew him."
Investigators are digging into the suspect's social media and background, he said. He was identified as Nathaniel Berhow by the sheriff's department and lived with his mother, who was with him when he died. His father died in 2017 of natural causes.
There appears to be no connection between the shooter and the victims other than all were students, the sheriff said.
"He wasn't chasing anyone," Villanueva said. The victims "appeared to be who was around him, available at the time." California school shooting suspect has died, authorities say - CNN

 

[Dawookie]

With Nikolas Cruz, everyone knew it was coming for years. Even the staff at the school to some extent. He terrorized his neighborhood and was openly violent to both people and animals for many, many years. His neighbors said the police were over at his house at least once a week.

But I don't think there was anything they could do about it beyond what they did. There wasn't anywhere else to put him. There aren't very many long-term, or even short-term inpatient programs in the US anymore. It also seems that there has been a rise in school shootings, homelessness, incarceration of mentally ill people, etc. since deinstitutionalization, because nothing was ever created to replace the institutions that were closed.

However as far as we know, Nathaniel Berhow did not have such obvious warning signs. I read somewhere that he said gave some indication about wanting to commit violence, but I'm not sure if that was accurate. So far there's no indication he had a history of violent behavior. In his case I think it was likely more an issue of that the warning signs went overlooked because nobody was really looking out for him and seeing if he was ok, or nobody knew what warning signs to look for.

He should have been arrested at least twice but wasn't because the school didn't report the incidents to police because of a school district aimed at reducing the so called school to prison pipeline. Had he been arrested and convicted, he wouldn't have been able to buy his weapons legally.

He was never reported for any of the various threats he made against students or the multiple times he said he was going to shoot up the school. The FBI had two tips on him they failed to follow up on. There we so many failures at all levels it's mind boggling

 

[NJSleuth91]

He should have been arrested at least twice but wasn't because the school didn't report the incidents to police because of a school district aimed at reducing the so called school to prison pipeline. Had he been arrested and convicted, he wouldn't have been able to buy his weapons legally.

He never should have been able to purchase weapons legally anyway. It's actually shocking that he was allowed to. Not only did he have a long and extensively documented history of severe mental health issues and violence, but he was Baker Acted in 2016! Clearly there's a major issue there.

He was never reported for any of the various threats he made against students or the multiple times he said he was going to shoot up the school.

He actually was reported for the threats by numerous people. But it seems that the police didn't take them seriously at all.

"In 2016 and 2017, the sheriff's office received a number of tips about Cruz's threats to carry out a school shooting."

The FBI had two tips on him they failed to follow up on.

Well they followed up on one. But they didn't follow up on the second one which could have led them to link the two tips. And clearly they didn't contact the sheriff's office and find out about the other threats.

"The FBI learned that a YouTube user with the username "nikolas cruz" posted a message in September 2017 about becoming a school shooter, but the agency could not identify the user. In January 2018, someone contacted the FBI tip line with a direct complaint that Cruz had made a death threat, but the complaint was not forwarded to the local FBI office."

There we so many failures at all levels it's mind boggling

Yup. No wonder so many of the Parkland students got into activism on this issue. I would have too if I were them.

 

[Dawookie]

He never should have been able to purchase weapons legally anyway. It's actually shocking that he was allowed to. Not only did he have a long and extensively documented history of severe mental health issues and violence, but he was Baker Acted in 2016! Clearly there's a major issue there.



He actually was reported for the threats by numerous people. But it seems that the police didn't take them seriously at all.

"In 2016 and 2017, the sheriff's office received a number of tips about Cruz's threats to carry out a school shooting."



Well they followed up on one. But they didn't follow up on the second one which could have led them to link the two tips. And clearly they didn't contact the sheriff's office and find out about the other threats.

"The FBI learned that a YouTube user with the username "nikolas cruz" posted a message in September 2017 about becoming a school shooter, but the agency could not identify the user. In January 2018, someone contacted the FBI tip line with a direct complaint that Cruz had made a death threat, but the complaint was not forwarded to the local FBI office."



Yup. No wonder so many of the Parkland students got into activism on this issue. I would have too if I were them.

The school wanted him committed but the doctors didn't agree and the same police officer who failed to act the day of the shooting had in the beginning wanted to initiate the Baker Act but then changed his mind after visiting his house. Had they done that he for sure would have red flagged on the background check. Since nothing was ever done about his behavior or violent incidents, there was nothing in the system to red flag him.

There was other threats against students that they themselves they didn't report along with other school shooting threats they didn't take seriously enough to report.

I don't think the FBI seriously investigated it. Between this and the night club shooter, that's two instances where they knew about the shooter beforehand and nothing happened.

I don't blame them either but at the same time some of their anger is directed at the wrong people. We know David High isn't going to come out and criticize the FBI because of his father. I never heard any of them criticize the school or BCSO for their failures along the way which allowed him to buy his weapons