CA - 3 dead, including gunman, Saugus High School, Santa Clarita, 14 Nov 2019

[Trino]

I don't believe that this shooter is the subject of the post you quoted. Earlier in the thread, the name of Adam Lanza and his circumstances entered the discussion. It can be very confusing to me (and I'd bet others) who are reading a thread about one topic when other topics with completely different facts are discussed, especially if the other subject's name doesn't appear in each post/reply.

So, here's a suggestion for those who want to discuss separate, unrelated incidents: I think it would help the thread if the subject in question is made apparent in each and every post. IMO.

Agreed that this has confused posters. Posts were about Adam Lanza, the Sandy Hook shooter. The shooter discussed here did not transfer schools, was not on an IEP.

 

[dotr]

I'm not sure I would trust the opinion of an "expert" who can't even spell Prozac, LOL.

Just going to leave this here. And keep in mind, the drug company's lawyer said in this article (in 2001) that there's no evidence linking antidepressants to suicidal and homicidal thoughts. Well clearly that was inaccurate because now there are black box warnings on those drugs for suicidal and homicidal thoughts...originally for people under 18, and later for people ages 18-24 also.

Jury Awards $6.4 Million In Killings Tied to Drug

But in this case we don't know yet if Nathaniel Berhow was on any medications.

EDIT: BTW, remember when the drug companies insisted for 20 years that oxycodone was non-addictive?

No we do not know if NB was on medication or not, but i do agree that it seems to be over prescribed, possibly with very bad results in the young.
speculation, imo.

 

[firebird]

I'm not sure I would trust the opinion of an "expert" who can't even spell Prozac, LOL.

Thanks for that, I just assumed Prosaic was some new drug I'd never heard of lol. I'm also quite the cynic on this topic. My anectdotal experience is with Cymbalta, which is an SNRI (not an SSRI) prescribed to me for an exercise-related chronic pain issue I was having. I won't soon forget that experience. I literally felt like someone other than myself. Like I had someone else's brain. It was terrifying. When I called the dr. freaking out he was like, oh that's normal and will pass after a few weeks. I was like "no thanks" and never took another one. I think a lot of people, especially young people (a) would not necessarily recognize their reaction to the drug as potentially problematic and reach out to their doc about it, or (b) would listen to the dr's advice and wait for the side effects to abate. It really worries me how many people are on these drugs - for everyone's sake, including their own. I do recognize that they help some people, but I believe they are WAY overprescribed and are far more dangerous than people realize. Heck, I took nearly every mind altering recreational drug under the sun in my misspent youth and none of those were half as concerning as the cymbalta experience!

 

[NJSleuth91]

Thanks for that, I just assumed Prosaic was some new drug I'd never heard of lol. I'm also quite the cynic on this topic. My anectdotal experience is with Cymbalta, which is an SNRI (not an SSRI) prescribed to me for an exercise-related chronic pain issue I was having. I won't soon forget that experience. I literally felt like someone other than myself. Like I had someone else's brain. It was terrifying. When I called the dr. freaking out he was like, oh that's normal and will pass after a few weeks. I was like "no thanks" and never took another one. I think a lot of people, especially young people (a) would not necessarily recognize their reaction to the drug as potentially problematic and reach out to their doc about it, or (b) would listen to the dr's advice and wait for the side effects to abate. It really worries me how many people are on these drugs - for everyone's sake, including their own. I do recognize that they help some people, but I believe they are WAY overprescribed and are far more dangerous than people realize. Heck, I took nearly every mind altering recreational drug under the sun in my misspent youth and none of those were half as concerning as the cymbalta experience!

Yes I totally believe you and I've heard many similar stories.

My best friend in high school went on Prozac and her personality permanently changed. She became violent, angry, manipulative, abusive, and just "off" in general. She also occasionally had hallucinations. It also didn't make her any less depressed or suicidal than she previously was...in fact it debatably got worse. Our friend group tried to deal with it for a few years but eventually she and I had a falling out and the rest of our friend group was like "you know what, I don't think we can deal with this anymore either" and all distanced themselves from her over the next few months.

Meanwhile I feel like the original cause of her depression was probably chronic sleep deprivation and burnout. We went to one of the most demanding public schools in the country with long commutes, lots of pressure to get into a top college and have tons of extracurriculars, etc. and sleeping 4-6 hours a night was commonplace. Almost anyone is going to be depressed under those circumstances.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

Have you seen the reports of the dad's battle w/ chronic alcoholism?
that alone disrupts normal families. Just ask anyone who grew up in a family w/ an alcoholic.
Also the father was arrested for domestic violence.
does that not appear to be an "unstable" family?
His mother was suing the father, before he died, for full custody of the 3 children.
There was obvious chaos in this family. And it
most likely was going on for years before this
young man decided to end his life.

I agree, alcoholism and domestic violence is unhealthy for any family. There was very likely troubles in their home. However, being a big game hunter and owning guns does not make a person, family or home unstable.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

I think that was the point of the post you're referring to though. That if the family was unstable, there were plenty of legitimate reasons for it, and that hunting and/or owning guns were not two of them. Personally, I loathe hunting, am in favor of the 2A but don't personally own guns. That said, I know plenty of people from stable families who either own guns, or hunt, or both. Chronic alcholism and DV, on the other hand, are clearly destabilizing factors whenever they are present. So I think the (valid) objection was to putting hunting and gun owning in a list of destabilizing behaviors.

Exactly!

 

[firebird]

Yes I totally believe you and I've heard many similar stories.

My best friend in high school went on Prozac and her personality permanently changed. She became violent, angry, manipulative, abusive, and just "off" in general. She also occasionally had hallucinations. It also didn't make her any less depressed or suicidal than she previously was...in fact it debatably got worse. Our friend group tried to deal with it for a few years but eventually she and I had a falling out and the rest of our friend group was like "you know what, I don't think we can deal with this anymore either" and all distanced themselves from her over the next few months.

Meanwhile I feel like the original cause of her depression was probably chronic sleep deprivation and burnout. We went to one of the most demanding public schools in the country with long commutes, lots of pressure to get into a top college and have tons of extracurriculars, etc. and sleeping 4-6 hours a night was commonplace. Almost anyone is going to be depressed under those circumstances.

How sad about your friend. Damn. And I understand they're pretty hard to stop once you've started. I had only been taking Cymbalta for a few days, maybe a week, so it was no problem for me. But I'm sure plenty of people who would like to quit just aren't up for that weaning process.

 

[Trino]

I'm not sure I would trust the opinion of an "expert" who can't even spell Prozac, LOL.

Just going to leave this here. And keep in mind, the drug company's lawyer said in this article (in 2001) that there's no evidence linking antidepressants to suicidal and homicidal thoughts. Well clearly that was inaccurate because now there are black box warnings on those drugs for suicidal and homicidal thoughts...originally for people under 18, and later for people ages 18-24 also.

Jury Awards $6.4 Million In Killings Tied to Drug

But in this case we don't know yet if Nathaniel Berhow was on any medications.

EDIT: BTW, remember when the drug companies insisted for 20 years that oxycodone was non-addictive?

After surgery I was given oxycodone. When my husband found my lost cell phone in the refrigerator, I got off oxy fast.

 

[claudianunes]

After surgery I was given oxycodone. When my husband found my lost cell phone in the refrigerator, I got off oxy fast.

If I ever have to take something like oxy I would refuse and ask for something else. Oxy is crazy.

 

[Ray_of_hope]

agree, numerous early reports said he was put on life support until his organs could be removed for transplanting.

I wondered about that and was afraid to bring it up. Medical professionals also have to do a series of testing, EEG's etc to demonstrate no brain activity and that takes some time. When I was practicing we needed 3 EEG's between specified intervals among other criteria. His mother would also have to agree to take him off of life support. I hope in his death he was able to save some, but that doesn't bring any of his victims back. It's such a dilemma, but if they were able to harvest any organs, I sure hope they did.

 

[Ray_of_hope]

I had pondered earlier if he had problems with the girlfriend. If she as stated was his emotional anchor I'm sure she has much info. That may have been the trigger. I feel for her being so close to this. Not to mention the toll on her as a teen herself being his anchor. That's a lot for a young girl.

I remember a posting about possible girlfriend issues. You were spot on. I sure hope she receives help because it was certainly not her fault.

 

[Ray_of_hope]

I am a huge supporter of organ transplant. One of my besties is a 39 year kidney recipient (sister donated) and I myself filled out card to let them have whatever is useful at the time of my passing. I gotta say if I was to get his heart I wouldn't want to know it was his. Sorry to say. I hope whoever gets it lives a long and healthy life.

Totally agree and it's been bothering me for days. I wouldn't want to know either. But I'm glad another (hopefully more than one) innocent was saved.

 

[Bravo]

I remember a posting about possible girlfriend issues. You were spot on. I sure hope she receives help because it was certainly not her fault.

Agree. I really feel for her. I have a gut feeling it was a one sided relationship. All about him and his needs.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Maybe I'm just a consequentialist but it wouldn't bother me in the slightest to receive an organ transplant from a killer. In most cases when an organ becomes available it means some sort of tragedy happened anyway.

Agree. I really feel for her. I have a gut feeling it was a one sided relationship. All about him and his needs.

I also suspect this was the case, and that he had probably gotten more needy leading up to this as his mental health worsened, leading her to end the relationship.

 

[TristanP]

I agree, alcoholism and domestic violence is unhealthy for any family. There was very likely troubles in their home. However, being a big game hunter and owning guns does not make a person, family or home unstable.

Keeping in the home when there are clearly problems is certainly no indication of good judgment.

 

[bombardier]

with this current discussion about psychiatric medications (mostly antidepressants) and school shooters/mass shooters, i'd caution everyone to keep in mind that correlation is not causation and to be critical about what you read!
eg i cant find the source right now but if its true that many school shooters were on antidepressants, you can either interpret that as 'being on antidepressants makes you more likely to shoot up a school' (a direct causal relationship that hasn't been proven) or 'there is something about these kids, like pre-existing mental illness, that causes them to both be on antidepressants and commit a shooting' (a correlational relationship that doesn't say anything about effect of antidepressants on homicidal violence)
im not saying that a causal relationship definitely doesn't exist, just that it currently is not backed up by research and evidence (case studies are NOT enough to prove a causational relationship).

 

[Ray_of_hope]

with this current discussion about psychiatric medications (mostly antidepressants) and school shooters/mass shooters, i'd caution everyone to keep in mind that correlation is not causation and to be critical about what you read!
eg i cant find the source right now but if its true that many school shooters were on antidepressants, you can either interpret that as 'being on antidepressants makes you more likely to shoot up a school' (a direct causal relationship that hasn't been proven) or 'there is something about these kids, like pre-existing mental illness, that causes them to both be on antidepressants and commit a shooting' (a correlational relationship that doesn't say anything about effect of antidepressants on homicidal violence)
im not saying that a causal relationship definitely doesn't exist, just that it currently is not backed up by research and evidence (case studies are NOT enough to prove a causational relationship).

Absolutely, that's why we should critique every study, well put. Thank you.

 

[NJSleuth91]

with this current discussion about psychiatric medications (mostly antidepressants) and school shooters/mass shooters, i'd caution everyone to keep in mind that correlation is not causation and to be critical about what you read!
eg i cant find the source right now but if its true that many school shooters were on antidepressants, you can either interpret that as 'being on antidepressants makes you more likely to shoot up a school' (a direct causal relationship that hasn't been proven) or 'there is something about these kids, like pre-existing mental illness, that causes them to both be on antidepressants and commit a shooting' (a correlational relationship that doesn't say anything about effect of antidepressants on homicidal violence)
im not saying that a causal relationship definitely doesn't exist, just that it currently is not backed up by research and evidence (case studies are NOT enough to prove a causational relationship).

SSRIs are now legally required to have black box warnings that they can increase the risk of suicidal ideation in people under age 24. The drug companies denied that was the case for years.

Side effects associated with violence are also listed for SSRIs. For example: Fluoxetine Side Effects: Common, Severe, Long Term - Drugs.com

Common (1% to 10%): Abnormal dreams, agitation, disturbance in attention, emotional lability, hostility, hypomania, mania, personality disorder, restlessness, sleep disorder, tension, thinking abnormal

Uncommon (0.1% to 1%): Akathisia, apathy, bruxism, depersonalization, elevated mood, euphoria, intentional overdose, manic reaction, neurosis, paranoid reaction, psychomotor hyperactivity, psychosis, suicidal thoughts and behavior, suicide attempt

Rare (less than 0.1%): Aggression, antisocial reaction, delusions, dysphemia, hallucinations, panic attacks

 

[human]

SSRIs are now legally required to have black box warnings that they can increase the risk of suicidal ideation in people under age 24. The drug companies denied that was the case for years.

Side effects associated with violence are also listed for SSRIs. For example: Fluoxetine Side Effects: Common, Severe, Long Term - Drugs.com

Common (1% to 10%): Abnormal dreams, agitation, disturbance in attention, emotional lability, hostility, hypomania, mania, personality disorder, restlessness, sleep disorder, tension, thinking abnormal

Uncommon (0.1% to 1%): Akathisia, apathy, bruxism, depersonalization, elevated mood, euphoria, intentional overdose, manic reaction, neurosis, paranoid reaction, psychomotor hyperactivity, psychosis, suicidal thoughts and behavior, suicide attempt

Rare (less than 0.1%): Aggression, antisocial reaction, delusions, dysphemia, hallucinations, panic attacks

what is your explanation for the fact these are used all over the world without the same outcomes

 

[bombardier]

SSRIs are now legally required to have black box warnings that they can increase the risk of suicidal ideation in people under age 24. The drug companies denied that was the case for years.

Side effects associated with violence are also listed for SSRIs. For example: Fluoxetine Side Effects: Common, Severe, Long Term - Drugs.com

Common (1% to 10%): Abnormal dreams, agitation, disturbance in attention, emotional lability, hostility, hypomania, mania, personality disorder, restlessness, sleep disorder, tension, thinking abnormal

Uncommon (0.1% to 1%): Akathisia, apathy, bruxism, depersonalization, elevated mood, euphoria, intentional overdose, manic reaction, neurosis, paranoid reaction, psychomotor hyperactivity, psychosis, suicidal thoughts and behavior, suicide attempt

Rare (less than 0.1%): Aggression, antisocial reaction, delusions, dysphemia, hallucinations, panic attacks

this is true, and doesn't contradict the points I made in my prior message. The side effect of "aggression" is listed as rare, in less than 0.1% of those tested. I assume serious aggression and violence leading to homicide is very VERY rare and not statistically significant in the discussion of SSRI side effects.
The association between medication use and increased risk of suicidal ideation is known and proven like you said (one reason is the start of antidepressant use can increase motivation and energy while not affecting low mood yet -> motivated to actually commit suicide), but I would be very wary about correlating risk of suicide/violence against oneself with risk of homicide/violence against others. Those with mental illness are more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators.