Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #116

Status
Not open for further replies.
One of the things that haunts me most about this case.
Question, they didn't search with dogs on the evening of the 13th when they were reported missing? If not, I don't get why. Even if Delphi doesn't have their own K9 unit, I'm sure Lafayette would have helped out.
How often do kids go missing in Delphi that they thought this one time the girls could have been runaways? Why is it less important when kids are runaways? Why is the first thought always that they are runaways, so many cases are unsolved because of LE not taking it seriously from the get-go.

BBM
I can understand how double-murder in a small town in broad daylight would not be LE's first assumption, but I don't understand how these girls could have been considered runaways. Not even for a moment. According to what has been released to public about them, they had no prior history of running away, no mental health concerns, and no personal drug involvement. Both girls were good students, active in sports, and in the school band at the time they disappeared. No precipitating events (such as a fight with a parent) were reported. The girls did not take money, belongings, or even warm jackets. Libby arranged a pick-up time with her dad, suggesting they planned to return from the hike as scheduled. The girls were looking forward to plans to go with BP to the mall as a reward for helping her with filing work earlier in the day. They sound as if they are responsible enough that they would not just go off with a friend and not be in contact with family.
 
BBM
I can understand how double-murder in a small town in broad daylight would not be LE's first assumption, but I don't understand how these girls could have been considered runaways. Not even for a moment. According to what has been released to public about them, they had no prior history of running away, no mental health concerns, and no personal drug involvement. Both girls were good students, active in sports, and in the school band at the time they disappeared. No precipitating events (such as a fight with a parent) were reported. The girls did not take money, belongings, or even warm jackets. Libby arranged a pick-up time with her dad, suggesting they planned to return from the hike as scheduled. The girls were looking forward to plans to go with BP to the mall as a reward for helping her with filing work earlier in the day. They sound as if they are responsible enough that they would not just go off with a friend and not be in contact with family.
Somebody posted recently a video interview with Sheriff Leazenby in his office. He mentions information giving by family (he doesn't state exactly) led them to believe the girls may have gone somewhere without informing adults...all paraphrasing, not quoting. Maybe whomever posted it can again, I can't find it.
 
BBM
I can understand how double-murder in a small town in broad daylight would not be LE's first assumption, but I don't understand how these girls could have been considered runaways. Not even for a moment. According to what has been released to public about them, they had no prior history of running away, no mental health concerns, and no personal drug involvement. Both girls were good students, active in sports, and in the school band at the time they disappeared. No precipitating events (such as a fight with a parent) were reported. The girls did not take money, belongings, or even warm jackets. Libby arranged a pick-up time with her dad, suggesting they planned to return from the hike as scheduled. The girls were looking forward to plans to go with BP to the mall as a reward for helping her with filing work earlier in the day. They sound as if they are responsible enough that they would not just go off with a friend and not be in contact with family.

double post, dbm
 
I'd also point out that if LE don't have the evidence to prove the persons guilt then maybe they aren't guilty. You are already trusting that LE will arrest the right guy in this hypothetical scenario when we know there have been plenty of wrongful and questionable arrests and there will be plenty in the future too. High profile cases attract that more than anything due to high amounts of pressure. We should all be hoping they get the right perp and they prove their case against them so the girls and their families get justice.

I so appreciate your point of view, Nadal; thank you for sharing.

Despite the fact we may not all agree in our discussions on this thread, I always find it important to read each post. Though it is sometimes difficult (for me) not to react negatively, I have found if I allow myself to stop and think about what another member is saying before responding, I will always gain new understanding (doesn't mean I will agree with it).

This is a case that members are passionate about; myself included. Unfortunately, I have had to take many personal breaks (for emotional reasons), but I always come back to where I left off and start again. Your post reminded me of why I do that; I would have missed a very important and relevant comment.

I absolutely agree with what you are saying. As mother, there is NO WAY I would ever want the wrong person to be arrested for the murder of my daughter (or granddaughter), and found not guilty at trial. I would much rather LE use all available resources, take their time with the investigation, and present an undeniable case in the courtroom. And I look forward to celebrating with all of you when that happens! No matter how long it takes.
 
They have seen him speaking: video with sound? Idk, if possible.

I think you are definitely on the right track, Germany. Very early on, DC says "I know that voice. Where have I heard that voice before"? ((1st PC?- can anyone help a girl out with the link? Unable to locate in media thread. Obviously not verbatim). ;)

This has stuck with me since the beginning..... what (who) might he be referring to? The video on Libby's phone?Someone he knows? Someone the community might know? Someone interviewed/suspected very early on?

IF the investigation is just now starting (again), and LE is going back to the beginning, this may be an important statement. What would be the purpose of making it, if not? :confused: LE had a suspect in mind very early on, IMO.
 
They had no runaway history.
'A' students involved in sports and music. No excuse not to go all out.
And they may have been.
I have always thought the message of calling off the official search might have been a police ploy. If there was a lurker or kidnapping in the woods -
Police know criminals watch their crimes on the news on their phones and respond to that information - like making a break for it out of the woods pre-dawn.
 
One of the things that haunts me most about this case.
Question, they didn't search with dogs on the evening of the 13th when they were reported missing?

This is the reason for one of my previous posts. It was not good enough to have a search party, or friends, out looking after dark. Face it, local LE made a grave error in calling off 'their' search that evening, when they should have been calling in a search and rescue team with dog.

That local LE in 2017 was not aware, or claims to not have been alarmed, or is not knowledgeable relative to the importance of a search in this type of situation is baffling......

I personally know SAR folks, PROFESSIONAL SAR folks. I know the protocol.

Not to mention the absolute mayhem in the woods, and the irreparable harm done to the crime scene.

This post is NOT meant to criticize, rather, to educate. Please take no offense.

sad
moo
 
Indeed, this is true. And it has been a lurking question in my mind, though it is a delicate path down which I've decided not to go on this forum.

A question that does come to mind is, how long would YOU consider no return text or call from an 8th grade daughter of YOURS to be appropriate before becoming alarmed?

I hope beyond all hope that LE nationwide, moving forward, understands the urgency of implementing search and rescue procedures early in a case, like, WAY before the next day. A good S&R team/dog could have potentially changed the entire outcome here.

I've heard the argument that people go missing every day, and yes, circumstances do at times dictate appropriate responses. Hind sight is clear. However, these girls were dropped off on a trail in the woods, in February, in Indiana, and failed to show up to meet for their pickup on time.

Think about it. 8th grade. Girls. NO REPLY via text, phone, or email for.....

1 hour
2 hours
3 hours
4 hours

How long you waitin'?

Every. Single. Person. YOU have contacted has not seen them.

5 hours
6 hours.......

Sad.

Yes. As a mother, I was way more on the alert. One of my kids used to be so hyper and impulsive as a teenager, that 2 minutes of no response could have been enough to call the police. So, 10 minutes of no call would have been a MAJOR CRISIS response on my part. The other one is very "stay put". So the first thing I'd think of if there is no answer would be, well, the cellphone lost its power. However, I am always concerned about mundane things (fell, hit his head, such stuff). By the same token, if he is with a friend I trust, and there is no activity within an hour, I'd be very much concerned, because it is highly atypical. And I'd call the police, and say exactly this.

But this is the question, how atypical was it for the girls? I assume that parents did not get concerned at first because there were two of them, because they were mature enough and by far not stupid girls, and because they were teenagers, and teenagers sometimes get distracted. But mostly - who would have thought of a killer roaming a mile away from them? This is not a common scenario, right? In my neighborhood, I'd think first of a bobcat that we recently saw on the hill, or a coyote. I assume the parents thought about a fall, or exposure to elements, or maybe running away.

As to the police, yes, this case requires implementation of better procedures. Of course had there been an S&R dog, maybe the outcome would have been different for one of the girls, or even if ultimately not, at least we'd know the name, or a good description of the perp.
 
Ailyb
Somebody posted recently a video interview with Sheriff Leazenby in his office. He mentions information giving by family (he doesn't state exactly) led them to believe the girls may have gone somewhere without informing adults...all paraphrasing, not quoting. Maybe whomever posted it can again, I can't find it.[/QUOTE/]

Family was dreaming up reasons kids weren't where they were supposed to be. Reasons that meant they were OK.
If sheriff used their wishful thinking ramblings to pull back ... That would have been too self interested in a warm bed and meal.
 
As to the police, yes, this case requires implementation of better procedures. Of course had there been an S&R dog, maybe the outcome would have been different for one of the girls, or even if ultimately not, at least we'd know the name, or a good description of the perp.

Thank you. These two girls were from a small town. People know each other. Within a few hours all relatives and/or potential friends would have been contacted.

In this day and age, a post on facebook, twitter, or other social media would have alerted literally dozens, if not hundreds, of fellow students, not just from the Delphi school district, but other districts too, the web of social media encompasses a vast territory.

I worked in public school for 20 years. I know kids. Untold number of times I knew stuff about kids before parents even knew, including drug use, pregnancy, criminal behavior, you name it.

I don't wish to point a finger at LE, or family, or local volunteers, not at all. BUT, I strongly believe LE should have brought in a SAR team, with dog(s), that night.

If you haven't heard from your child, and no friend of your child has heard from your child, and no relative has heard from your child, my suggestion is to take immediate action.
 
(SBM for focus)

@taximama24, I know that in late May of this year/early June there were some WS-ers who were discussing the possibilities of this crime's being drug-related. Yours is a good (though not often discussed) theory!

As one who grew up in the Midwest (and who is currently Midwest-based), I would say that, while there are "pockets" of illicit drug activity in the Midwest, I truly do not believe that the Midwest is more a "drug haven" than any other part of the country. (This, in defense of those not familiar as looong-time residents of the Midwest -- specifically, those who perhaps have never had the opportunity to live/work in one of the small-town places for which the Midwest is famous -- and for which the Midwest is sometimes -- a LOT! -- humorously poked at! :))

There are still many excellent small towns in the Midwest to live, work, raise a family, to retire, and especially to grow up as a young person -- all while exploring the woods, trails, fishing spots, and natural resources -- without any encounters with criminals! More likely encounters with 'possums, squirrels, and a few skunks (4-legged ones ;))! (And no -- I don't work for any local Midwest chambers of commerce! LOL)

I am very much interested in the history of Prohibition, and drug use, too, worldwide. My opinion is - drugs and alcohol are everywhere, in all countries, Midwest is not different from any other area, and if drugs as such are unavailable or strictly prohibited, then watch how fast people will drink or smoke themselves to death. They will find something.

The pattern of use varies, and it is highly genetic, but what is used in the area largely depends on the financial status of the population. Farmers can not afford cocaine, and opiates are expensive, too. So meth it will be.

There are definite temporal "cycles" in the pattern of drug use. Maybe we can find some contributors that are hidden so far, but I think one needs very savvy computer models to factor in all parameters that trigger each cycle. Economy, yes, wars, yes, financial crieses, yes, but I bet there are far more factors that contribute.

So, Midwest is the same like any other area, but meth might be their predominant drug because it is rather cheap, because it is incredibly easy to make (one reduction reaction), and because ingredients are either available, or interchangeable.

I think we have a certain psychiatric crisis, perhaps lack of awareness of teenage depression and ADD in poorer farming areas, or maybe psychiatrists and nurse practitioners are not easy to access. And at the same time, we know that teenagers are nr 2 risk group in suicides. I am sure no one grows planning to become an addict. Even if the drug is around, even if parents are addicted, everyone wants to do better, do the right thing. So perhaps it starts as self-medication, plus certain experimentation due to peer pressure, and then becomes a problem, because the stuff is heavily addictive, and while there is no life-threatening effects, the lack of energy during meth withdrawal makes people seek it out more, and because their main problems remain unseen, and untreated.
 
Thank you. These two girls were from a small town. People know each other. Within a few hours all relatives and/or potential friends would have been contacted.

In this day and age, a post on facebook, twitter, or other social media would have alerted literally dozens, if not hundreds, of fellow students, not just from the Delphi school district, but other districts too, the web of social media encompasses a vast territory.

I worked in public school for 20 years. I know kids. Untold number of times I knew stuff about kids before parents even knew, including drug use, pregnancy, criminal behavior, you name it.

I don't wish to point a finger at LE, or family, or local volunteers, not at all. BUT, I strongly believe LE should have brought in a SAR team, with dog(s), that night.

If you haven't heard from your child, and no friend of your child has heard from your child, and no relative has heard from your child, my suggestion is to take immediate action.

BBM

In the beginning I defended LE's decision to call off the search, however my view has changed. These girls did not fit the profile for runaways (IMO), and they were out of touch with family/friends in an age where they should have been reachable by phone or social media. There was some speculation that the girls were lost, but really, what is the likelihood of them getting lost given that the girls were familiar with the trails and considering it is not a vast wilderness. There were houses nearby and other people on the trails that afternoon. There was also some early speculation that they might just be hurt, but if one of the girls had twisted her ankle or fallen and broken her wrist, what is the likelihood that the other girl wouldn't seek help physically or with the phone, or that they wouldn't be found in the vicinity of the trail/bridge waiting for help to arrive. I think a dog team could have located them at least 12 hours earlier than they were actually found, which may not have saved their lives, but might have preserved evidence and gotten a criminal investigation going sooner.
 
Those untested rape kits tell me that women have no value to society and rape is ok. Women need to unite on this issue. moo

Well, it merely shows what war takes precedence, the war on rape or the war on drugs. The war on rape is the war with rapists, who are predominantly, but not necessarily, males, and it takes a generation to change the attitude to women.

This problem - essentially, tolerance of rape - is not typical for one country, no, it is the same worldwide, and we are clearly not the worst, but the prevailing attitude has to be changed.

It can, if the people who are giving low precedence to this war try to view it in a different way. Rape decreases the fertility of the nation, consequences of rape make families unstable, and in some cases, rapists kill women of childbearing age. Economically, we can ill afford rape. If men try to look at rape from this standpoint, they probably will become more proactive. And - now it is cheaper to process the kits.
 
I think you are definitely on the right track, Germany. Very early on, DC says "I know that voice. Where have I heard that voice before"? ((1st PC?- can anyone help a girl out with the link? Unable to locate in media thread. Obviously not verbatim). ;)

This has stuck with me since the beginning..... what (who) might he be referring to? The video on Libby's phone?Someone he knows? Someone the community might know? Someone interviewed/suspected very early on?

IF the investigation is just now starting (again), and LE is going back to the beginning, this may be an important statement. What would be the purpose of making it, if not? :confused: LE had a suspect in mind very early on, IMO.

Just to remind - I don't find that voice similar at all, but one of possible POIs discussed here at one point has his voice recorded on a greeting in a very public place, according to what he once stated.

Could that be an issue? If you see a person or hear him talking, the voice may be of one timbre.

A phone greeting, a recording, might sound very different. (I actually noticed it when I heard my own dad's interview on TV. His voice sounded very dull. He probably has dull notes in his voice, but not in day-to-day speech. A phone recording of him sounds different as well).

So either Tobe knows where he heard this voice, and hints at other people to recognize it, too, from the same recording, or he is sincerely trying to remember where the heck could he have heard it, and can't because it might have been on one occasion only.
 
Last edited:
My apologies BNA, just had my Dad's memorial service this past wkend and fell a bit behind in things here. Are you referring here to the early 2017 PC with the stage full of men or are you referring to the 4/22/19 PC?
Please go easy on yourself. Dad's are special and I'm sorry you are walking this path.
 
All of this talk of dogs being called in are taking me back to that night. I saw it on our local news that they were missing, so I immediately did a search and went to Abby's mother's FB page. It was heartbreaking. She was posting and asking her friends on FB to please text her if they'd seen the girls. I could feel the emotion in her posts and her friends were dropping everything to come and help.
 
The key to solving many crimes is in those those kits.

1.After burglary or robbery crimes many criminals rape to celebrate.
2. Rape is a violent crime murderers often launch from, from rape for rape/murder.
3. Rapists are also often torturing their family with molestation and abuse.

Maybe not testing is not just negligent, but has an element of lawmakers fear that family or themselves would get caught for old crimes.

Police should be clambering for the evidence in rape kits.


Where in the world did you hear;

1. “Many criminals don’t rape to celebrate a burglary. That’s crazy. Burglars stick to burglary.



in all my years I’ve never heard even a whisper that lawmakers were afraid that their own DNA or family’s would be found in one of those kits. That’s just a wild assumption on your part.
 
They had no runaway history.
'A' students involved in sports and music. No excuse not to go all out.
And they may have been.
I have always thought the message of calling off the official search might have been a police ploy. If there was a lurker or kidnapping in the woods -
Police know criminals watch their crimes on the news on their phones and respond to that information - like making a break for it out of the woods pre-dawn.
The day girls went missing everyone in the community thought the girls were lost in the woods.
I had a conversation with the local reporter. Everyone was searching and believing they would be found safe. She was in contact with S&R on the day they went missing and the day they were found murdered.

The residents of Delphi never thought a monster would murder two beautiful girls.

Nothing was ever discussed, people believing the girls ran away.

I would have remembered the reporter telling me this.

The girls came from good and loving families. Libby and Abby is loved and dearly missed by all!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
58
Guests online
2,348
Total visitors
2,406

Forum statistics

Threads
590,011
Messages
17,928,964
Members
228,038
Latest member
shmoozie
Back
Top